British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

[KingBrianI]

So is there any logic to thinking the same temperature regime might work with Burton Ale yeast (WLP023, Thames in the Wyeast world)?

I'm hoping so. My plan is to move on to another british yeast after the 1968 and test it the same way. I don't see why it wouldn't work for just about any yeast.

 

[jmo88]

I wanted to try dropping the temp at the end of fermentation on my brown porter but chickened out. The 1318 I used has been really sluggish at the end, going from 1.020 to 1.016 in four days. I'm concerned if I dropped the temp, it would stop it completely. I'm just not familiar enough with this yeast yet and need to try it with something I've used before.

 

[GuldTuborg]

^^^ Some gentle rousing as things begin to slow down really helps with this yeast. It doesn't need a lot, as it seems to attenuate pretty fully despite being a high flocculator. When roused like that, I generally get 75-80%AA from it. I can't say I've ever tracked it day to day, though, so I couldn't say how much more I got when rousing, only that is does help over the times I haven't bothered.

I haven't played with the fermentation schedule that much with this yeast, but I have used in by necessity at a small variety of temperature ranges. It seems very forgiving in that it tastes and attenuates similarly regardless of what I do to it. It might be worth pulling out a gallon or so from the fermentor and cooling it per the Fuller's schedule to compare to the other. I might do the same sometime soon. I have my next brew all lined up, but I'm running low on the bitter, so that may have to be next in line. I'll post my results if I decide to go this route.

What was the recipe you used again?

 

[jmo88]

I've been rousing it. I've never had to baby an English yeast like this before. I've made the recipe with WLP037, wy1187, and wy1968 before and have always gotten into the 75%-80% range pretty quickly and always use a starter and a stir plate. The recipe is basically a rip off of JZ's Taddy porter but slightly bigger. Roughly 80% MO, 8% Hugh-Baird Brown, 7% 200L Pale Chocolate, 5% Carastan (light crystal).

 

[corncob]

I wanted to try dropping the temp at the end of fermentation on my brown porter but chickened out.

Are you talking about going from warm to cool (68 to 64 per the Fullers example), or cool to cold (64 to 44 or whatever)? I assumed Fullers dropped the temp so far before fermentation was done because that beer went into casks for secondary and dropped the final few points there. I thought everyone else in the thread here was crash cooling just after terminal gravity had been reached. I thought the purpose of the final temp drop was to drop all the yeast. Is that not the case?

Also, has anyone ever heard of hop flavor being lost due to crash cooling? This is the first batch I've ever been able to chill suddenly, so I can't say for sure what's going on--but I swear the sample I had the day I turned the dial to 35 was much more hoppy and floral than the sample (pint, really-it was delicious) I drank three days later while running the beer into the keg.

 

[jmo88]

Are you talking about going from warm to cool (68 to 64 per the Fullers example), or cool to cold (64 to 44 or whatever)? I assumed Fullers dropped the temp so far before fermentation was done because that beer went into casks for secondary and dropped the final few points there. I thought everyone else in the thread here was crash cooling just after terminal gravity had been reached. I thought the purpose of the final temp drop was to drop all the yeast. Is that not the case?

Well, part of the idea of dropping the temp in this case is to not let the yeast clean up too much. So, with a yeast that is not reaching terminal gravity quickly and is being sluggish at the end of fermentation, a temperature drop at terminal gravity kind of negates the purpose since the yeast probably have begun cleaning up a lot during the slow fermentation at the end. Basically, because it is being sluggish, I will have a beer that is similar to one that has remained at fermentation temp for a three week period. Much of what is being challenged here is that a long primary at fermentation temps (3 weeks +) seems to be causing English ales to be too clean and lacking much of the character like that found in commercial examples.

 

[GuldTuborg]

I've been rousing it.

Hmm. Since it is attenuating well already, maybe we could concoct a plan to get a large amount of fermentation done quickly, and then cool at the right time. That way, even if things get sluggish, proper attenuation is achieved. Mashing lower, or maybe some nutrient 24hrs after pitching might work. Hell, I don't know. I'm just brainstorming. Does anyone know how Boddington's fermented?

 

[bierhaus15]

Sounds good bierhaus. I think the results of your experiment should really help to shed light on the fermentation questions I have.

Well I figured I would post the early results of my little experiment. For those who don't know, I originally pitched some 1187 into a split batch of a simple English bitter. One batch fermented at 68F for 14 days before a D-rest at 70F for another two. This beer was not cold crashed, it stayed at room temp until I 'kegged' it on day 17. However, the other batch was fermented for 10 days until the gravity had begun to stablilize and then I crash cooled it immediately. It remained in the fridge at 43-45F for a few days and was kegged by day 14. Both beers were 'kegged' in a "coors home draft" and carbonated with co2 cartridges to about 2 volumes.

Now for the results: Right off the bat, you can tell the two apart. The one that stayed at room temperature is much cleaner, with just a bit of pleasant diacetyl and some good malt flavor. It still is a bit young, but the malt and hops come through cleanly and well balanced. I don't think I would let this type of a beer sit on the yeast cake past day 21, as you really do lose a lot of malt/yeast character. In contrast, the batch that got cold crashed right as fermentation ended pretty much screams "British yeast." There is much more diacetyl present than the one that got the d-rest, though it's not so much that it reeks of butter. The malt/yeast profile on this one is also much more robust, you get a lot more of that biscuit/toasted malt character and the beer tastes much fresher overall.

In conclusion, I definitely think cold crashing after the bulk of fermentation has completed does make a big difference on the final beer. The cold crashed version has much more malt/yeast flavor, though at the same time isn't as clean tasting as the one that sat at room temperature. I'd say the overall balance of flavors favors the one that sat at room temp, though I still prefer the cold crashed one for its full flavored malt profile. Also, I find the cold crashed version to have more hop flavor/aroma too. My only complaint about the cold crashed version is the diacetyl. I think the way to get around this would be to pitch fresh yeast at bottling/kegging and allow the beer to clean up some of the diacetyl in the keg while at room temp for a few days. I am pretty happy with my results so far, though I think my normal English yeast fermentation schedule is right on target for getting both a clean tasting beer and one that won't lose those English malt and yeast flavors.

Coming up I plan on doing some more experimenting with fermenter geometry and open fermenting. I'll keep everyone posted.

 

[KingBrianI]

Thanks for the update! It's good to see conclusive results like that. Please report back with how each keg tastes as it continues to age. I've found the yeast and malt character of my beer slowly reducing in the keg. I actually bottled and pasteurized 6 bottles from the keg tonight although two exploded during pasteurization! I'm interested to see what that does to the beer.

 

[elkdog]

Well I figured I would post the early results of my little experiment. For those who don't know, I originally pitched some 1187 into a split batch of a simple English bitter. One batch fermented at 68F for 14 days before a D-rest at 70F for another two. This beer was not cold crashed, it stayed at room temp until I 'kegged' it on day 17. However, the other batch was fermented for 10 days until the gravity had begun to stablilize and then I crash cooled it immediately. It remained in the fridge at 43-45F for a few days and was kegged by day 14. Both beers were 'kegged' in a "coors home draft" and carbonated with co2 cartridges to about 2 volumes.

Now for the results: Right off the bat, you can tell the two apart. The one that stayed at room temperature is much cleaner, with just a bit of pleasant diacetyl and some good malt flavor. It still is a bit young, but the malt and hops come through cleanly and well balanced. I don't think I would let this type of a beer sit on the yeast cake past day 21, as you really do lose a lot of malt/yeast character. In contrast, the batch that got cold crashed right as fermentation ended pretty much screams "British yeast." There is much more diacetyl present than the one that got the d-rest, though it's not so much that it reeks of butter. The malt/yeast profile on this one is also much more robust, you get a lot more of that biscuit/toasted malt character and the beer tastes much fresher overall.

In conclusion, I definitely think cold crashing after the bulk of fermentation has completed does make a big difference on the final beer. The cold crashed version has much more malt/yeast flavor, though at the same time isn't as clean tasting as the one that sat at room temperature. I'd say the overall balance of flavors favors the one that sat at room temp, though I still prefer the cold crashed one for its full flavored malt profile. Also, I find the cold crashed version to have more hop flavor/aroma too. My only complaint about the cold crashed version is the diacetyl. I think the way to get around this would be to pitch fresh yeast at bottling/kegging and allow the beer to clean up some of the diacetyl in the keg while at room temp for a few days. I am pretty happy with my results so far, though I think my normal English yeast fermentation schedule is right on target for getting both a clean tasting beer and one that won't lose those English malt and yeast flavors.

Coming up I plan on doing some more experimenting with fermenter geometry and open fermenting. I'll keep everyone posted.

Thanks for this update! It's interesting to see roughly the same results produced with the British/Ringwood strain, which I favor for slightly bigger English ales, and especially to read you comparison of the "standard" homebrew fermentation against this more manipulated one. I'm plotting a winter warmer (not spiced, but rather a darker, malty English ale) to be brewed in the fall, and this strain was what I planned to use- I'll strongly consider the cold crash technique.

 

[poley]

I'm working on some bitters of my own using london ale III (1318). My first round sat at room temp for 7 days, and was racked to a corny and sat at cellar temp for another 3 days before chilling and carbing.

I just made nearly the same beer (tweaked the crystal breakdown slightly), but left it in the primary for 9 days, and the malt/ester character changed a *lot* in those extra 2 days, much more cleanup.

bierhaus15, I'm seeing results very similar to you. I think I'm going to do something like my first round again, rack after 5-6 days to keg, and let that cellar for another 3-4 days before crashing. I didn't have the major butter flavors that you described, but that might be more characteristic of the yeast differences.

 

[bierhaus15]

I think I'm going to do something like my first round again, rack after 5-6 days to keg, and let that cellar for another 3-4 days before crashing. I didn't have the major butter flavors that you described, but that might be more characteristic of the yeast differences.

My normal fermentation schedule for English ales is pitch low, let rise to 65-68F for 12-14 days, diacetyl rest for 3 at room temp and crash cool by day 17 or so. I have been very happy with how my beer's have turned out with this method. The beer turns out clean and full flavored; 'clean' meaning the flavor profile is not yeasty, muddled, buttery ect...

However, I would be a little wary of taking the beer off the yeast as early as day 5-6. I still believe you need to give the yeast time to clean up after itself while in the primary; we are not trying to produce a beer in shorter time, but rather maintain those malty/complex fermentation characteristics after bottling or kegging. With that in mind, I definitely think the cold crashing helps 'lock' in the flavor of the beer, though I am still unsure if this is best done before a d-rest or after.

 

[KingBrianI]

I think that if a beer tastes good at day 5-6, why not take it off the yeast. I think if you pitch the right amount of yeast into well aerated wort, pitch at 63-64 and ferment at or below 68, the beer won't need much if any cleaning up, besides maybe a little diacetyl reduction.

 

[bierhaus15]

I think that if a beer tastes good at day 5-6, why not take it off the yeast. I think if you pitch the right amount of yeast into well aerated wort, pitch at 63-64 and ferment at or below 68, the beer won't need much if any cleaning up, besides maybe a little diacetyl reduction.

Yeah, I think that can often be the case, though mostly for yeast strains that tend to ferment and flocculate fast and clean up pretty quickly; such as 1968, 1318, 1335, and 1187. Though I wouldn't make it a habit of fermenting all English beers for 5 days and expect the same results each time.

 

[KingBrianI]

Though I wouldn't make it a habit of fermenting all English beers for 5 days and expect the same results each time.

Definitely not. Instead of fermenting for a set amount of time, I think tasting the beer when fermentation is over is a much better idea. If it tastes good and there isn't anything needing to be cleaned up, go ahead and chill or rack or whatever. And if that happens to be at day 5, that's great. But if you taste it and it needs more time, give it more time.

 

[poley]

Definitely not. Instead of fermenting for a set amount of time, I think tasting the beer when fermentation is over is a much better idea. If it tastes good and there isn't anything needing to be cleaned up, go ahead and chill or rack or whatever. And if that happens to be at day 5, that's great. But if you taste it and it needs more time, give it more time.

I agree 100%. To be honest, I'm not rushing the beer. I'd prefer the 12-14 day schedule, it provides more room for comfort. But after 9 days, the yeast have cleaned up too much, so I'm thinking about shortening it. That's all I'm saying.

 

[mpersinger]

Great thread, hoping to contribute here.

I'm fermenting an ESB using Safale s-4. I was aiming for 70F (2 degrees higher to clean up additional sulphourus compounds from dry yeast--anyone chime in on this?). When my temp controller trips the heater on it is reset without turning on the heating element, so anyway, at just over 48hrs since pitch, the fermentation is blazing and the wort temp hit 72. I'm just now cooling in an iodine-water bath to get down to about 65 (per the CYBI episode summary...thanks for posting). I didn't want to open the carboy to take a gravity and risk contamination, so I'm guessing about the 50% attenuation for lowering the temp, plus hoping the ferment doesn't stick. All in the name of elusive real ale goodness.

 

[KingBrianI]

Here's the special bitter I made with the recipe I posted earlier in this thread. It is honestly the best English-style beer I've had since being in England.

 

[ajf]

I'm glad to see that you didn't over-carbonate it, and you know how to fill a pint glass.

If it tastes anything like as good as it looks, that is a fine beer.

-a.

 

[KingBrianI]

Oh, I forgot to add that the beer has cleaned up significantly in the keg. I had my kegerator at 45 but that was too cold so it's at 50 now. There is still a lot of the yeast-derived flavor in the beer, but not nearly as much as at kegging.

 

[coypoo]

Oh, I forgot to add that the beer has cleaned up significantly in the keg. I had my kegerator at 45 but that was too cold so it's at 50 now. There is still a lot of the yeast-derived flavor in the beer, but not nearly as much as at kegging.

In a good way or bad way?

 

[KingBrianI]

In a good way or bad way?

I actually really liked the explosion of flavor it had at kegging. It is now much more subdued in a way that I think would appeal to a broader audience. But I really enjoyed all that flavor and may have to look into filtering or something to get the yeast to not clean up in the keg.

 

[Beernip]

Wow, that looks good. You could try to cold crash it like a cider. Crash it @ 35-40, rack it to a secondary, crash it again for another 2 days and then rack to a keg. That should remove all the yeast.

 

[KingBrianI]

Wow, that looks good. You could try to cold crash it like a cider. Crash it @ 35-40, rack it to a secondary, crash it again for another 2 days and then rack to a keg. That should remove all the yeast.

I cold crashed primary at 44 for a week but didn't do a secondary. I'm not sure it's possible to get all the yeast out without filtering.

 

[Beernip]

I've had pretty good luck with that method with back-sweetening my ciders and bottling without killing off the yeast. I've never had it start the fermentation process start again in the bottles. My cider yeast does compact well so that may help the process of cleaning it up.

It could be the aging process cleaning it up as well and removing the yeast process doesn't help as much.

 

[AnOldUR]

Have to work today, but I'm drinking that imaginary beer shared by an imaginary friend in an imaginary glass. Tastes great! Thanks KingBrian.

 

[KingBrianI]

Have to work today, but I'm drinking that imaginary beer shared by an imaginary friend in an imaginary glass. Tastes great! Thanks KingBrian.

It tastes even better than it looks!

 

[bierhaus15]

Nice looking pint you got there KB! You should try out 1318 sometime and see how you like it, if you have not done so already. It's not nearly as estery as 1968 but has a great malt profile.

I thought I would share a pic of my test 1187 bitter... the malt flavor is very good, though it has toned down some now that it's been in the keg for a few days.

 

[KingBrianI]

Nice looking pint you got there KB! You should try out 1318 sometime and see how you like it, if you have not done so already.

Nice pint. Looks like the twin of mine! I'm trying 1318 on my next beer, I'm the Brian that just posted to your blog.

 

[AnOldUR]

edit to remove mindless clutter in an otherwise informative thread . . . . sorry.