British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

[winvarin]

I cold crashed primary at 44 for a week but didn't do a secondary. I'm not sure it's possible to get all the yeast out without filtering.

Going to throw something out here and then duck for the flames. If you're looking to shut it down at a certain point in time and you intend to keg or bottle with a secondary yeast ... how about a very SMALL amount of something like potassium metabisulphite or one of the other agents used by wineries to kill off the yeast prior to bottling?

 

[KingBrianI]

I think the levels at which the k-meta effects the yeast are above the taste threshold. I could be wrong though, maybe someone with wine experience could comment. Besides the taste though, it would kind of make me feel dirty.

 

[winvarin]

Heh. I hear you. As soon as I posted that, I thought about the first wine kit I ever made for my wife. I was a wine noob and bought some metabisulfite because I didn't want a bunch of bottle bombs if I was going to age it. Stupid me, didn't read the fine print on the packet of "mystery additives" that came with the kit. It came with a pre-measured amount of sulfite. I added more when I bottled. It was almost a year in the bottle before that beer stopped tasting like you were sucking on a match.

My LHBS also sells a product called super kleer. I think it's chitosan and something else. The owner says if you use it you need to add bottling yeast because it will also drop the bulk of your yeast out of suspension.

As you might tell, I am not a big filtering fan. Filters cost money and they're just something else I'd have to clean.

Again though. The thought of using a different additive to knock your yeast out to preserve a "point in time" may still leave you feeling dirty. But if there is no taste impact, what's the difference between using a chemical to drop the yeast out of suspension, and using a process to accomplish the same result?

We use nutrients for yeast health and other supplements for clarity, head retention, etc. If it does not affect the taste negatively, it's just another tool.

Plan B, always viable, is to just brew smaller batches and drink faster

 

[winvarin]

Another partially OT thread. I don't have a great deal of experience with constructing British beer recipes. I am shooting for something that loosely fits the special/best bitter category and in the low to mid 30s for my IBU range. My OG will be around 1.044.

My dad was coming to town this weekend and his LHBS carries a wider variety of hops than mine does. So I had him grab me an ounce each of Target (10.5); Challenger (7.0) and Northdown (9.6). I've been reading the profile of each (Target is the only one I've used before), and trying to figure out my hopping schedule.

Part of me says to go with an equal blend of all 3 for both bittering and flavor/aroma. But can somebody who's a little more experienced with British beers suggest another alternative with this mix of hops?

Also, would "hop bursting" or pushing most of my hop additions to the 30 min or less mark, be appropriate here. I would certainly get flavor and aroma doing it that way. But would it throw the malt out of balance?

The cohumulone for all 3 seems to be in the 20-35% of total acids range. But I am not sure whether that will cause them to be harsh for flavor purposes.

 

[Beernip]

What bitterness ratio do you shoot for on your bitters? (Bests and ESB's)

 

[poley]

FWIW. I contacted a friend who worked at a brewpub as the primary brewer for several years on this matter, and this was his response:

It really all depends on what strain of yeast you're using. Ringwood (used by Gritty's, Geary's, Shipyard, etc etc, as you know) is not much like the others. The best way to reduce diacetyl is to; 1) pitch plenty of yeast, for a 5 gal batch at 1.040 I'd be doing at least a liter starter, and if the gravity was any higher I'd go to 1500 or even 2000 mL; 2) aerate really well; 3) diacetyl rest: after primary fermentation is over, keep the temperature up for at least a day, longer with a stronger beer. Also, esp. with a stronger beer, you may need to rouse the yeast (i.e. shake the hell out of the fermenter). Ringwood really likes to flocculate. The idea with all these steps is to have plenty of healthy yeast and to keep it active after fermentation to reduce that diacetyl. I've made Ringwood beers with no detectable diacetyl, so it is possible; it does produce a lot during fermentation, but will clean it up if you let it.

With other British yeasts, as I said, it depends on the characteristics of the individual strain, though there are some general rules. If you want higher maltiness (leaving aside the obvious steps in recipe formulation like using plenty of specialty malts and keeping the hop bill small), choosing a lower-attenuating strain and mashing at higher temperatures are good ways to go. For maximum ester formation, underpitching and underaerating will work, though those have side effects (like diacetyl). The easiest way to increase esters is to pitch the yeast at a high temperature (68-70 F for most British yeasts would do it, and you can let many of them rise to 75 with no ill effects). For the vast majority of British yeasts 62 is a pretty low starting point. The (greatly simplified) reason for all that is that most esters are formed during the growth phase, before fermentation starts and the airlock bubbles, and they're formed much faster at higher temps. So, lengthen the growth phase or raise the temp and you'll get more esters.

As far as temp crashing, I'm a fan, and with most British yeasts they'll flocc REALLY fast if you drop the temp fast. Try to get them as close to 32 as you can, as fast as you can. BUT, with any yeast that produces a noticeable amount of diacetyl (which is most), let it sit a day or so at fermentation temp after the primary is done. You'll end up with a much smoother brew.

Also, I'd be concerned with any 1.040 ale that took 5 days, or any more than 72 hours, to ferment. If it's taking longer than that you're probably underpitching and/or underaerating.

So I'm feeling pretty good about my 5-6 day turnaround here, where flavor retention is concerned, and my OG is low.

 

[KingBrianI]

What bitterness ratio do you shoot for on your bitters? (Bests and ESB's)

Anywhere from about 0.7 to 0.9 is typical with the sweet spot being around 0.75-0.8.

 

[Randar]

FWIW. I contacted a friend who worked at a brewpub as the primary brewer for several years on this matter, and this was his response:

Honestly, some of this advice seems specific to large tank fermentation, so it may not apply directly, especially in terms of temps. At least that's my impression.

Not saying some of the recommendations won't still apply, but that is my impression.

I think we're trying to produce a British profile of esters without the diacetyl. Since MO is low in nitrogen, need to ensure we clean up that diacetyl somehow (big starter, oxygenation, D-rest, etc). This is the one big question I have with the 64-68-64-crash ferm schedule proposed in this thread. Does that really allow enough clean-up of the diacetyl?

It also seems to me that you need to use a good amount of yeast nutrient to increase FAN and valine to minimize diacetyl production in the first place, especially because of the low nitrogen content of MO.

Feel free to call me an idiot. I am no expert in British beers, but brewing a beer with good esters and no detectable diacetyl does not seem simple if you're going to drop ferm temp at the end of fermentation and crash, hence minimizing the chance for the yeast to clean up diacetyl.

 

[poley]

Honestly, some of this advice seems specific to large tank fermentation, so it may not apply directly, especially in terms of temps. At least that's my impression.

Yes, temps I would agree can change significantly based on size of the fermentation vessel, but the schedule should be similar, assuming you're also taking gravity readings to verify.

 

[KingBrianI]

I, for one, am looking to retain a bit of diacetyl. Not much, but a little really helps pull these beers together, I feel. By holding at 64 towards the end of fermentation, I found that diacetyl is being reduced slowly and if you monitor the flavor, you can crash cool whenever you like the level.

 

[bierhaus15]

I think we're trying to produce a British profile of esters without the diacetyl. Since MO is low in nitrogen, need to ensure we clean up that diacetyl somehow (big starter, oxygenation, D-rest, etc). This is the one big question I have with the 64-68-64-crash ferm schedule proposed in this thread. Does that really allow enough clean-up of the diacetyl?

I agree. While I think some beer's can get away with a 5 day ferment and then cold crash to the keg, I think a solid d-rest is necessary somewhere along the line. Also, I am not entirely convinced the loss of English yeast character is directly related to leaving the beer on the yeast (1-2 weeks) - rather I have found that there is something about cold crashing/cooling that seems to help maintain some of those flavors more so than just a short ferment time.

 

[Randar]

I, for one, am looking to retain a bit of diacetyl. Not much, but a little really helps pull these beers together, I feel. By holding at 64 towards the end of fermentation, I found that diacetyl is being reduced slowly and if you monitor the flavor, you can crash cool whenever you like the level.

OK, good info. What are you doing for aeration, yeast nutrients, pitching rates?

 

[Randar]

I agree. While I think some beer's can get away with a 5 day ferment and then cold crash to the keg, I think a solid d-rest is necessary somewhere along the line.

This was another datapoint that seemed to be specific to larger vessel fermentation. Specifically, 5 days including D-rest time sounds about right for a 30bbl tank. 5 gal fermentor? Not so sure.

 

[KingBrianI]

OK, good info. What are you doing for aeration, yeast nutrients, pitching rates?

For aeration I shake the hell out of the bucket for 2 minutes or so. I also transfer from the kettle to the fermenter through a hose with a little aerator thing at the end that looks like a cone.

I add a half teaspoon of wyeast yeast nutrient per 5.5 gallon batch at 10 minutes remaining in the boil. I also always adjust my water to get the Ca+ to over 50 ppm, but usually keep it below 100 ppm.

For pitching rates I go off the mr. malty calculator.

 

[Randar]

For aeration I shake the hell out of the bucket for 2 minutes or so. I also transfer from the kettle to the fermenter through a hose with a little aerator thing at the end that looks like a cone.

I add a half teaspoon of wyeast yeast nutrient per 5.5 gallon batch at 10 minutes remaining in the boil. I also always adjust my water to get the Ca+ to over 50 ppm, but usually keep it below 100 ppm.

For pitching rates I go off the mr. malty calculator.

Sounds good. Only difference in my process is I use pure O2, but otherwise similar. I think I may use "extra" yeast nutrient on MO-based beers from now on though.

 

[KingBrianI]

This was another datapoint that seemed to be specific to larger vessel fermentation. Specifically, 5 days including D-rest time sounds about right for a 30bbl tank. 5 gal fermentor? Not so sure.

I think 5 days is highly achievable on a 5 gallon scale, especially if the beer is held at 68 during fermentation and not dropped to 64. That is actually the temperature scheme I plan to use on my next bitter with wyeast 1318. I can't remember exactly without looking back, but the special bitter I did earlier in this thread was done in about that time. I may have let it sit at 64 until day 6 or so to reduce the diacetyl a bit, but the diacetyl probably would have been at an acceptable level at day 5 if I had left it at 68.

Like I've said before, if you pitch enough healthy yeast, aerate well, and control the temps, there won't be anything unpleasant in the beer that necessitates leaving the beer on the yeast at ferment temps for any longer.

 

[ThatBrokeBrewer]

Hey everyone, been following this thread for a while and have found it incredibly informative.

Just wanted to let everyone know that priming Wyeast 1968 with speise still seems to produce that 'cidery' flavour that bierhaus was talking about. Mind you, this was the only time I've primed with speise, and it was from another batch of beer.

Other than that, I'm brewing 4 5gallon batches of best bitter over Wednesday-Thursday and comparing the intensity of malt and esters open V.S. closed fermentation will produce, as well as cold-crashing. Ideally, I would have brewed a single large batch, and then split it to reduce the amount of variables, but I don't have the equipment to do so.

Recipe is from Mosher's Radical Brewing, adjusted to my brewhouse, plus an extra 0.5oz addition of EKG at flame-out. I'm repitching a 5th generation Wyeast 1968 slurry.

Now for packaging, I only have 2 kegs, and no C02 tank. If I can't get the extra kegs and C02 before I'm ready to package, would my best option be to:

1) Bottle with priming sugar/DME/Speise after trying to drop out as much yeast as possible, and pitching a neutral yeast strain prior to bottling?
2)Bottle before fermentation is complete and let fermentation complete inside the bottles?

Thanks in advance!

 

[coypoo]

2)Bottle before fermentation is complete and let fermentation complete inside the bottles?

Thanks in advance!

Dont want to do that or you will make bottle bombs

 

[bierhaus15]

Another update: On the 22nd and 28th of January I brewed two batches of beer, one an English best bitter and the other an English IPA - recipes were pretty simple and they were fermented with 1318 and 1187 respectively. Around day ten I made some tasting notes on my blog (http://perfectpint.blogspot.com/2011/02/english-yeast-fermentation-tasting.html) and had noted that I wasn't particularly happy with the bitter as the yeast/malt flavors were a bit muted and I thought the IPA was 'ok'. I crash cooled and dry hopped both beers for seven days with EKG. However, I didn't get around to kegging these beer's until this past Sunday, Feb 27. The beers had sat on the yeast cake for around 30 days, 7 of those on dryhop in the fridge.

Anyways, I tapped both kegs last night and the results are absolutely fantastic! The malt and yeast flavors are really vibrant, with everything in perfect balance. I used TF&Sons MO for the bitter and the biscuit profile is probably the best of all the bitter's I've made so far. The IPA isn't quite as hoppy as I would like, but the malt/yeast character is very nice. This has me wondering how important it is to take the beer off the yeast as to maintain these yeast flavors? I am starting to suspect that a two week fermentation is fine for yeast flavor, so long as you crash cool the beer. This getting very confusing - one experiments points to one thing and another to something different.

However, you all need to stop by and have pint!

 

[Randar]

Nice update. I have secured the 4 yeasts I will use and I think I will brew 2 consecutive batches on each, probably an ESB and an IPA.

I will be using 1187 Ringwood, 1318 London III, 1469 West Yorkshire, and 1968 London ESB.

 

[KingBrianI]

However, you all need to stop by and have pint!

If I leave now I should be there in time for a breakfast pint!

Nice update. I have secured the 4 yeasts I will use and I think I will brew 2 consecutive batches on each, probably an ESB and an IPA.

I will be using 1187 Ringwood, 1318 London III, 1469 West Yorkshire, and 1968 London ESB.

Nice lineup!

 

[KingBrianI]

Wow, I just opened the smack pack of 1318 to pitch it into the starter, and the smell is really nice. The best I can describe it is like a sweet fruity pebbles kind of smell, but better. I can't wait to use that yeast!

 

[malt_shovel]

Wow, I just opened the smack pack of 1318 to pitch it into the starter, and the smell is really nice. The best I can describe it is like a sweet fruity pebbles kind of smell, but better. I can't wait to use that yeast!

1318 is fast becoming my favorite yeast for english ales. Will be interested to see what you think of it.

Another thread I was involved in regarding Fullers 1845 had a quote from a HBT brewer regarding a fermentation schedule that may serve to reinforce what you have already discovered yourself.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/can-you-brew-recipe-fullers-1845-a-205873/

I know people who spend all their brewing time devoted to brewing the perfect English Bitter, and in my opinion it is time well spent! Great thread and great info, well done.

Edit: By the way, I give my wort a whiz with my cement mixer attachment at the end of my cordless for a couple of minutes prior to pitching. It gets the same treatment around 12 hours after pitching. My mash water is adjusted to get a Cl/SO4 ratio at or just below 0.5 to enhance bittering. I will be playing with ferment temp schedule some more now, but I am not confident of my palate to pick diacetyl (or reduction of it to be more accurate) to understand when to crash cool.

 

[winvarin]

Did a special/premium bitter today. 1.042 OG and 30 IBU with a 1200-ish ml starter. Today was a good and bad brew day. I didn't boil off enough (I really need to invest in a site glass). But on the other hand, I pulled a few more efficiency points out of my system so I ended up closer to my expected OG than I would have usually, and got another 1/2 gallon or so at the end of the day (within 2 points of my expected OG). WIN!

My big surprise of the day was how quick my WLP002 kicked off. I decanted my 1200 ml starter down to about 800 ml before I started losing yeast and decided to go ahead and pitch. I just checked on it and 3.5 hours after pitching, I have a thin layer of krausen and am already getting some activity from my blow off rig.

The main downside of this beer is going to be my ferment schedule. Nighttime is too cold still to trust my beer to the temp controlled fridge in the garage. So I am using the upstairs bathtub.

It's been staying pretty consistently between 66 and 68 F. Fine for this yeast but I was really hoping to try the cold, warm, cold fement you guys have been talking about on this thread.

I have been a long primary guy and usually let this yeast ride 3-4 weeks or so before bottling/kegging. But I would like to cut cleanup time short and try to preserve some of the character of this yeast.

If my temperature control options are limited to the ambient temperatures listed above, what do you think? 2 weeks at 66-68F then package? Nightime lows for the next 10 days are going to be in the 30s and 40s. I don't feel comfortable putting it in the garage fridge.

 

[KingBrianI]

If my temperature control options are limited to the ambient temperatures listed above, what do you think? 2 weeks at 66-68F then package? Nightime lows for the next 10 days are going to be in the 30s and 40s. I don't feel comfortable putting it in the garage fridge.

Are you bottling or kegging? That would determine what I did. Let it ferment at 66-68 ambient until you hit a steady fg and the flavor tases good to you. It should happen much before 2 weeks. Probably 5-7 days. At that point move it to the fridge in your garage for a cold crash. Leave it there until the 2-week mark then package.

 

[bigljd]

I attempted my first English style brew (ESB) last weekend, and read thru this entire thread before my brew. Lots of good stuff in here! The timing was perfect, since this is also my first brew using a new fermentation fridge I snagged off from Craigs list. I can control ferm temps now
The 5 gal recipe uses Crisp pale malt as the base, and has a little Aromatic, Crystal 120 and a dash of Special roast.
IBUs are around 28 using 1.25oz EKG bittering and .75 oz EKG flavoring.
OG came in at 1.050, just a tad above style.
The yeast I'm using is WLP002 - man is that stuff chunky in the vial. It broke up nicely in my starter with the stir plate spinning it. I pitched at 66, hit it with some oxygen, threw it in the ferm fridge and brought it down to 64. When it started fermenting about 6 - 8 hours later I set the temp controller to 68, and when I got up this morning the better bottle was fermenting so hard I was worried that if my blowoff tube got plugged up the resulting explosion might take out half the neighborhood. Don't think this fermentation will take long.
I plan to drop it back down to 64 once the bubbling slows to a crawl and start tasting it - once it's where I like I'll crash it down to 40 for a few days and keg it.
I'll update in a few days - thanks for the great informative thread!

 

[MattHollingsworth]

FYI, Wyeast 1318 works very well in some American styles as well, in my experience. I recently used it for an American Amber and Black IPA and both came out fantastic. I've found that it brings out something special in the malt, hard to nail down. It doesn't do this at the expense of the hops in the Black IPA, for instance. Also used it in my Krampus Beer (instead of X-Mas beer) a sort of Pacific Northwest style X-Mas beer (meaning not spiced, more like an Imperial Amber/Brown Ale). That and the Black IPA were dry hopped. Worked out great. Not a heavy attenuator, so it leaves some malty sweetness. That American Amber has been brewed a few times with 1056, and the 1318 one is better. Does a better job with the crystal, IMHO.

Quite nice and highly recommended.

 

[winvarin]

Are you bottling or kegging? That would determine what I did. Let it ferment at 66-68 ambient until you hit a steady fg and the flavor tases good to you. It should happen much before 2 weeks. Probably 5-7 days. At that point move it to the fridge in your garage for a cold crash. Leave it there until the 2-week mark then package.

It's rocking away at 67F today. That room really holds its temp well.

My plan is to keg. I'll C.P. fill a 12 pack or so for my dad (or pay the price if I don't) and leave the rest on tap in my keezer.

What do you suggest for carbonation level? 2 volumes or something lower? I only have a single regulator and the rest of the stuff in there is a little more highly carbed (2.5 volumes or so). I guess I could just disconnect the other 2 kegs in there and carb the bitter properly. Then once it's done I can disconnect the bitter and only put gas on it when I plan to serve.

 

[Randar]

It's rocking away at 67F today. That room really holds its temp well.

My plan is to keg. I'll C.P. fill a 12 pack or so for my dad (or pay the price if I don't) and leave the rest on tap in my keezer.

What do you suggest for carbonation level? 2 volumes or something lower? I only have a single regulator and the rest of the stuff in there is a little more highly carbed (2.5 volumes or so). I guess I could just disconnect the other 2 kegs in there and carb the bitter properly. Then once it's done I can disconnect the bitter and only put gas on it when I plan to serve.

Bitters are BARELY carbed... 0.75 - 1.3 volumes CO2

 

[motobrewer]

It's rocking away at 67F today. That room really holds its temp well.

My plan is to keg. I'll C.P. fill a 12 pack or so for my dad (or pay the price if I don't) and leave the rest on tap in my keezer.

What do you suggest for carbonation level? 2 volumes or something lower? I only have a single regulator and the rest of the stuff in there is a little more highly carbed (2.5 volumes or so). I guess I could just disconnect the other 2 kegs in there and carb the bitter properly. Then once it's done I can disconnect the bitter and only put gas on it when I plan to serve.

fyi, this is a huge pita. if it's what you got, roll with it. i'd seriously consider a secondary reg. i've done this a few times, wastes a lot of gas, and again, pita.

also, carb for bitters is very low.