British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

[bierhaus15]

Well I just finished another long brew session today, a simple special bitter that used 10% of my homemade no.1 brewers invert syrup and was pitched with some top cropped wy1318 (great to see more people using it!). The beer should turn out pretty good, though it's more of a test batch than anything else. However, we got 18 inches of snow last night, so it wasn't too fun standing outside the apartment in the cold and snow for hours...

And like a moron, I decided yesterday that I would brew on Tuesday too. Made a starter of wy1968 last night so it looks like I'm back out in the cold tomorrow. Still don't know what I'll be brewing - I'm pretty much burned out on bitters, I got 2 fermenting, 3 on tap, and another batch in mini kegs. I'm thinking about either doing a brown ale of sorts or maybe even a robust porter. I have the real recipe for Smuttynose Porter which is superb, though I've never used wy1968 for it. Ah, what to do... suggestions?

 

[ajf]

Bitters are BARELY carbed... 0.75 - 1.3 volumes CO2

Draught bitters are carbed at that level.
For bottled bitters, I carb them up to about 2 volumes.

-a.

 

[KingBrianI]

I'm thinking about either doing a brown ale of sorts or maybe even a robust porter. I have the real recipe for Smuttynose Porter which is superb, though I've never used wy1968 for it. Ah, what to do... suggestions?

Compromise between the brown ale and the robust porter and make a brown porter. I have the recipe for Fuller's London Porter if you want it. You've got the right yeast.

 

[bierhaus15]

Compromise between the brown ale and the robust porter and make a brown porter. I have the recipe for Fuller's London Porter if you want it. You've got the right yeast.

I was thinking of that, though I already have one brown porter fermenting and I'm out of brown malt for the fullers. I really shouldn't be brewing, I don't have any more space for all this beer! :cross:

The recipe I've used in the past for fuller's porter was something like UK pale, 10% brown, 8% crystal, and 6% chocolate malt... similar to yours?

 

[KingBrianI]

The recipe I have is a bit different. It's the one from Graham Wheelers BYOBRA and is 12% brown, 10% crystal, 2% chocolate. I've never brewed it but plan on doing something similar at some point.

I'm in the process of trying to figure out what my next beer will be too but it won't be for another 2 weeks. Right now I'm thinking about something along the lines of 100% golden promise but with maybe a touch of a dark malt for a little color. Then I'll caramelize some of the first runnings for a bit more color and some toffee flavors, and bitter it with challenger for some marmalade, then heavily late hop with styrian goldings for that floral spicy aroma and flavor. Something light colored with fresh hoppiness for the warmer weather coming.

 

[GuldTuborg]

I've always thought Orfy's mild recipe is just screaming for a more characterful yeast than Notty. That's in the same vein but definitely different. Plus, with warmer weather around the corner, now is the time for a session pint (or 3) on the porch with some friends.

I was also going to suggest an IPA as well, but it looks like someone beat me to it.

 

[bierhaus15]

Holy sh*t, it just occurred to me that this years NHC entries are due no later than 30 March - I totally forgot! I hope I can still enter... That means I have less than three weeks to brew and package an ESB, another dark mild, and finally figure out how to properly force carb bottles from my keg setup. It's almost funny how bad I screwed up the planning of this one! :cross:

Guess we'll really find out how fast I can ferment these beers. At least they'll be fresh for the judges! Tomorrow, ESB it is...

 

[corncob]

I figured I should post results on the bitter I brewed, since I'm drinking it and it will be gone soon. My recipe is still not quite where I want it, but the beer is one of the best I've ever made and the closest I've come to the taste I am after.

I mashed at 149, used the Fullers yeast (1.5 qt starter), and got 67% attenuation. I pitched at 64, let it go to 68, went back down to 64 after 2 days (the yeast kept right on chugging), then crashed to 35 on day 6, after 2 days of no gravity change.

I detect no "green" flavors now, and no diacetyl--I even did the test. BUT, I can only say I've ever detected a buttery or oily taste in beer a few times (esp. in young homebrew or old English imports), so I might not be able to tell well enough. Also this is the first beer I've ever cold crashed, and the youngest I've ever had taste "ready."

The taste is certainly malty, and fruity as heck. It's delicious. But I didn't duplicate the taste I have been after. I got closer for sure, but I think the taste I am after is the taste of a 4-month-old English beer, not a 4-week-old one. If my brewing ever gets ahead of my drinking, I am going to split a batch of bitter and hang on to half for 4 months to test the theory.

All said and done, I think keeping the tail-end of fermentation cool (but not decreasing temp at the bitter end) and taking frequent samples allows you to put the brakes on the ester cleanup when you want, without putting the yeast to sleep prematurely. AND there is a definite connection between the English "deep malty" we all are after and retaining some of the esters that the yeast tend to mop up during the week(s) after primary fermentation has ceased. Who knows about diacetyl?? I may not be sensitive enough to it to comment intelligently.

I am a convert. All my future English beers will finish fermentation at a relatively cool temp, and will be crashed (maybe not so low) as soon as the oily-ness fades from a gravity sample.

 

[motobrewer]

I've always thought Orfy's mild recipe is just screaming for a more characterful yeast than Notty. That's in the same vein but definitely different. Plus, with warmer weather around the corner, now is the time for a session pint (or 3) on the porch with some friends.

i agree, what are you thinking tho? thames vally?

 

[KingBrianI]

The taste is certainly malty, and fruity as heck. It's delicious. But I didn't duplicate the taste I have been after. I got closer for sure, but I think the taste I am after is the taste of a 4-month-old English beer, not a 4-week-old one. If my brewing ever gets ahead of my drinking, I am going to split a batch of bitter and hang on to half for 4 months to test the theory.

It's awesome you've gotten closer to your goal. Do you think that instead of a "4-month old" taste you're looking for, it is a pasteurized flavor? It's said the pasteurization process increases the caramel flavors while reducing the hoppiness slightly. You might try bottling a couple bottles from the keg when the carb gets where you want it, then pasteurizing the bottles and seeing if it changes the flavor towards the direction you are aiming for.

 

[AnOldUR]

-wy1318, my new favorite. Superb malt profile with slight sweetness that goes very well with darker cystal malts. I get 70-75% attenuation. Does well in buckets, carboy and top cropping. Krausen sticks around forever. Pitch low, raise temp to 68F for two weeks, d-rest, keg by day 17. Ages well.

. . . Well I hope this helps someone.

Well, this thread convinced me.

After brewing (and enjoying) Orfy's Mild, I want to make another beer in this style. Just placed the order for 1318.

Thanks for all the contributions here.

 

[winvarin]

Draught bitters are carbed at that level.
For bottled bitters, I carb them up to about 2 volumes.

-a.

So .75-1.3 for draught, and close to 2 for bottle. I might try natural conditioning in the keg. I've not done that before but it seems like the best way to get that level of carbonation in the keg with my current gear.

I've never naturally carbonated in the keg before, only force carbed. Do I just add the sugar like I would for regular bottling and put the keg at room temp?

Do I need to hit it with a small amount of pressure just to keep the lid sealed until it carbonates?

And if I am cold crashing before carbonating, I assume I will need to add yeast. I have an 11.5 g packet of US-05. Will that work for carbonating? How much? About half?

I figure if I go that route, I can just let it naturally carb, then drop it in my keezer when it is ready to serve and only apply gas when I want to dispense.

Alternatively, I could just bite the bullet and bottle the old fashioned way

 

[Beernip]

You need to use less corn sugar with natural carbing in a keg vs in bottle. I can't remember the exact amount but I think it is 1.30 oz for 2.0 volumes. Less than an ounce for 1.3 volumes.

 

[Mad_Milo]

Yes, pressurize the keg with CO2 to get a seal. Also, be sure your poppets and lid seal up completely, or you will just be adding a small bit of alcohol.

 

[corncob]

Do you think that instead of a "4-month old" taste you're looking for, it is a pasteurized flavor?

I hadn't thought of that. Maybe I'll give it a try...for the sake of science!!

 

[ajf]

So .75-1.3 for draught, and close to 2 for bottle. I might try natural conditioning in the keg. I've not done that before but it seems like the best way to get that level of carbonation in the keg with my current gear.

I've never naturally carbonated in the keg before, only force carbed. Do I just add the sugar like I would for regular bottling and put the keg at room temp?

Do I need to hit it with a small amount of pressure just to keep the lid sealed until it carbonates?

And if I am cold crashing before carbonating, I assume I will need to add yeast. I have an 11.5 g packet of US-05. Will that work for carbonating? How much? About half?

I figure if I go that route, I can just let it naturally carb, then drop it in my keezer when it is ready to serve and only apply gas when I want to dispense.

Alternatively, I could just bite the bullet and bottle the old fashioned way

I don't add any priming sugar to my draught beers. I hit the keg with a good blast of CO2 to seal the lid, and then bleed off the pressure. After fermentation there is enough CO2 in the beer for my taste.
None of the English real ales are force carbed either. The kegged beers are pasteurized and force carbed, and they don't taste anything like as good as the draught versions.

-a.

 

[smizak]

Interesting thread.

I was just talking to the LHBS about English ales. He uses 1968 exclusively and cold-crashes at day 3 or 4, he also swears that if you let the yeast go too long, you lose that real English character.

 

[winvarin]

You need to use less corn sugar with natural carbing in a keg vs in bottle. I can't remember the exact amount but I think it is 1.30 oz for 2.0 volumes. Less than an ounce for 1.3 volumes.

So I have decided to bypass kegging this batch and bottle instead. I am not really set up to have one keg running at a separate and lower psi than the rest, so force carbing is out. I have never naturally carbed in the keg and since there are so many other variables at play here (fermentation time, cold crashing, etc.) that I am tinkering with for the first time that I don't want to add another first to this batch.

I am going to shoot for somewhere between 1.5 and 2.0 volumes in the bottle. Fermenting yeast is WLP002

I do have a couple of questions:

1. Cold crashing will be an option at any time. Tonight marks the third full day of fermentation for this batch so I will begin testing this evening. Do I need 2 or more days of consecutive stable gravity before I cold crash, or should I just cold crash after 3 days if I have reached my expected terminal gravity? I did mash this one low (149F)

2. How long should I cold crash once I decide to move it?

3. Will I need a secondary yeast from bottling?

4. If yes to 3, then how much? I have an 11g pack of US05 in my fridge. I am thinking about half. Should I rehydrate?

5. If I use a strain like US05 in bottling, do I run the risk of bottle bombs? My understanding is that WLP002 is a relatively low attenuator, leaving behind residual sweetness. If I add priming sugar and there is still residual sugar left from the 002, do I run the risk of over-carbonating at the very least when using a more attenuative strain like US05? Or does this problem resolve itself by the fact that the amount of sugar is relatively small and yeast activity slows under pressure?

 

[ASantiago]

Cold crashing will be an option at any time. Tonight marks the third full day of fermentation for this batch so I will begin testing this evening. Do I need 2 or more days of consecutive stable gravity before I cold crash, or should I just cold crash after 3 days if I have reached my expected terminal gravity? I did mash this one low (149F)

Wouldn't you rather let it finish out completely? I mean, let it sit in the fermenter for a few more days, let the yeast complete its cycle? 3 days in the fermenter is not even close to being long enough. Unless I'm missing something here...

Will I need a secondary yeast from bottling?

No yeast needs to be added for bottle carbonation. There should be plenty in suspension when you bottle, even after letting the beer sit in the fermenter for a while.

If I use a strain like US05 in bottling, do I run the risk of bottle bombs? My understanding is that WLP002 is a relatively low attenuator, leaving behind residual sweetness. If I add priming sugar and there is still residual sugar left from the 002, do I run the risk of over-carbonating at the very least when using a more attenuative strain like US05? Or does this problem resolve itself by the fact that the amount of sugar is relatively small and yeast activity slows under pressure?

You run the risk of bombs if you bottle too soon, not to mention the flavor of your beer will be severely affected.

Again, maybe I'm missing a key piece of info here...

 

[rjwhite41]

ASantiago, this entire thread is about not allowing the yeast to clean up in order to retain some "authentic" british flavor in bitters. That's why he is going to begin checking after 3 days and crash when the beer ferments out and the flavor is where he likes it. Winvarin, I have not tried this technique so I am not the one to give advice but from reading this thread since it's inception I believe you want a stable gravity and a diacetyl check before cold crashing. There should be enough yeast even after cold crashing but it might take a little longer to carbonate.

 

[ASantiago]

this entire thread is about not allowing the yeast to clean up in order to retain some "authentic" british flavor in bitters.

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[GuldTuborg]

i agree, what are you thinking tho? thames vally?

I've never used the Thames Vally strain (I know, shame, shame), but the more I use 1318, the more I become convinced it's a great all purpose strain. If you still have access to the Wyeast Yorkshire strain, that strikes me as being a great option, too. WLP037 seems to be a similar type of strain, and might still be available somewhere (haven't used it, though).

If you try this out, let us know what yeast you use and how it turns out. I think I'll be making this recipe soon, too. I'll probably be using 1318, but I could be convinced to use something different if you get great results with another strain.

 

[motobrewer]

I may do this on april 3rd, either thames valley or 1318. maybe use thames valley II if i can find it then, its coming out 2nd quarter.

i really wanted to do more of a goose island mild winter clone, have you ever had that? its dubbed an "american mild", 5.6% so not really what i'd call a mild, but i really really like that beer. we'll see what i end up doing.

http://www.gooseisland.com/pages/mild_winter/21.php

 

[GuldTuborg]

I have had the Mild Winter, and while it's been a few months since I had it, I do remember liking it. It didn't knock my socks off, but it was a solid, tasty, drinkable beer. I suppose that's what these are about, after all, no? Maybe I'll have to revisit it. I love how GI makes much of its recipes' details available online. That should make it pretty easy to clone.

Do you know what the Wyeast 2nd quarter yeasts will be, then? I haven't seen them advertised yet.

 

[jfr1111]

Thames Valley and London Ale III are very dfferent yeasts. Thames Valley has a more mineral, softly malty and hop forward profile. It's a squeaky clean yeast with minimal esters. 1318 is way maltier, fruitier and sweeter. In my (short) experience, it muddles somewhat the hop aroma and bitterness, but in a good way. I have found it a bit too sweet for bitters, but I guess the answer would be more early addition hops to have that firm bitterness.

1318 is way easier to harvest: top cropping is a breeeze and it clears amazingly well without gelatin (can't say the same for 1275).

 

[motobrewer]

I have had the Mild Winter, and while it's been a few months since I had it, I do remember liking it. It didn't knock my socks off, but it was a solid, tasty, drinkable beer. I suppose that's what these are about, after all, no? Maybe I'll have to revisit it. I love how GI makes much of its recipes' details available online. That should make it pretty easy to clone.

Do you know what the Wyeast 2nd quarter yeasts will be, then? I haven't seen them advertised yet.

no, i only know thames valley II will be there, because I emailed them about it.

 

[AnOldUR]

I love British ales . . .

Looking at the guidelines for the English styles, there’s a numerical overlapping between Mild and Ordinary Bitter. I read the distinguishing difference being malty vs. dry. Orfy’s mild recipe made an excellent beer. Even my wife liked it, but the roasted malts kept it from being a “love it” beer for her. I plan to brew this weekend using his recipe as a base, but will be pushing it into the Ordinary Bitter range. Might be too much crystal for a Bitter, but because of the low gravity, I don’t want it to finish too thin and dry. What do you think?

80% Maris Otter
19% Crystal 55L
1% Pale Chocolate 225L
Wyeast 1318

OG 1.038
FG 1.008
SRM 12-13
IBU 30

 

[KingBrianI]

I wouldn't worry about it being too thin and dry if you reduce the crystal. 19% crystal is a bit high but I don't want to dissuade you from trying it. If it were me, I'd aim for something more like 5-10% crystal. But in such a small beer, even 19% crystal isn't that much weight-wise.

 

[AnOldUR]

19% crystal is a bit high but I don't want to dissuade you from trying it.

That's where the crystal is in the Orfy recipe. For the beers I'm use to brewing that would be over the top, but it worked in the low gravity mild. Now you have me second-guessing the decision to try it here. Might compromise and lower it to around 15%?

 

[KingBrianI]

That's where the crystal is in the Orfy recipe. For the beers I'm use to brewing that would be over the top, but it worked in the low gravity mild. Now you have me second-guessing the decision to try it here. Might compromise and lower it to around 15%?

I think either way, 19% or 15% would turn out well. You can always fine tune it on subsequent brews if you prefer more or less.