British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I'm working on some bitters of my own using london ale III (1318). My first round sat at room temp for 7 days, and was racked to a corny and sat at cellar temp for another 3 days before chilling and carbing.

I just made nearly the same beer (tweaked the crystal breakdown slightly), but left it in the primary for 9 days, and the malt/ester character changed a *lot* in those extra 2 days, much more cleanup.

bierhaus15, I'm seeing results very similar to you. I think I'm going to do something like my first round again, rack after 5-6 days to keg, and let that cellar for another 3-4 days before crashing. I didn't have the major butter flavors that you described, but that might be more characteristic of the yeast differences.
 
I think I'm going to do something like my first round again, rack after 5-6 days to keg, and let that cellar for another 3-4 days before crashing. I didn't have the major butter flavors that you described, but that might be more characteristic of the yeast differences.

My normal fermentation schedule for English ales is pitch low, let rise to 65-68F for 12-14 days, diacetyl rest for 3 at room temp and crash cool by day 17 or so. I have been very happy with how my beer's have turned out with this method. The beer turns out clean and full flavored; 'clean' meaning the flavor profile is not yeasty, muddled, buttery ect...

However, I would be a little wary of taking the beer off the yeast as early as day 5-6. I still believe you need to give the yeast time to clean up after itself while in the primary; we are not trying to produce a beer in shorter time, but rather maintain those malty/complex fermentation characteristics after bottling or kegging. With that in mind, I definitely think the cold crashing helps 'lock' in the flavor of the beer, though I am still unsure if this is best done before a d-rest or after.
 
I think that if a beer tastes good at day 5-6, why not take it off the yeast. I think if you pitch the right amount of yeast into well aerated wort, pitch at 63-64 and ferment at or below 68, the beer won't need much if any cleaning up, besides maybe a little diacetyl reduction.
 
I think that if a beer tastes good at day 5-6, why not take it off the yeast. I think if you pitch the right amount of yeast into well aerated wort, pitch at 63-64 and ferment at or below 68, the beer won't need much if any cleaning up, besides maybe a little diacetyl reduction.

Yeah, I think that can often be the case, though mostly for yeast strains that tend to ferment and flocculate fast and clean up pretty quickly; such as 1968, 1318, 1335, and 1187. Though I wouldn't make it a habit of fermenting all English beers for 5 days and expect the same results each time.
 
Though I wouldn't make it a habit of fermenting all English beers for 5 days and expect the same results each time.

Definitely not. Instead of fermenting for a set amount of time, I think tasting the beer when fermentation is over is a much better idea. If it tastes good and there isn't anything needing to be cleaned up, go ahead and chill or rack or whatever. And if that happens to be at day 5, that's great. But if you taste it and it needs more time, give it more time.
 
Definitely not. Instead of fermenting for a set amount of time, I think tasting the beer when fermentation is over is a much better idea. If it tastes good and there isn't anything needing to be cleaned up, go ahead and chill or rack or whatever. And if that happens to be at day 5, that's great. But if you taste it and it needs more time, give it more time.

I agree 100%. To be honest, I'm not rushing the beer. I'd prefer the 12-14 day schedule, it provides more room for comfort. But after 9 days, the yeast have cleaned up too much, so I'm thinking about shortening it. That's all I'm saying.
 
Great thread, hoping to contribute here.

I'm fermenting an ESB using Safale s-4. I was aiming for 70F (2 degrees higher to clean up additional sulphourus compounds from dry yeast--anyone chime in on this?). When my temp controller trips the heater on it is reset without turning on the heating element, so anyway, at just over 48hrs since pitch, the fermentation is blazing and the wort temp hit 72. I'm just now cooling in an iodine-water bath to get down to about 65 (per the CYBI episode summary...thanks for posting). I didn't want to open the carboy to take a gravity and risk contamination, so I'm guessing about the 50% attenuation for lowering the temp, plus hoping the ferment doesn't stick. All in the name of elusive real ale goodness.
 
Here's the special bitter I made with the recipe I posted earlier in this thread. It is honestly the best English-style beer I've had since being in England.

DSC_5134NEF.jpg
 
I'm glad to see that you didn't over-carbonate it, and you know how to fill a pint glass. :)

If it tastes anything like as good as it looks, that is a fine beer.

-a.
 
Oh, I forgot to add that the beer has cleaned up significantly in the keg. I had my kegerator at 45 but that was too cold so it's at 50 now. There is still a lot of the yeast-derived flavor in the beer, but not nearly as much as at kegging.
 
Oh, I forgot to add that the beer has cleaned up significantly in the keg. I had my kegerator at 45 but that was too cold so it's at 50 now. There is still a lot of the yeast-derived flavor in the beer, but not nearly as much as at kegging.

In a good way or bad way?
 
In a good way or bad way?

I actually really liked the explosion of flavor it had at kegging. It is now much more subdued in a way that I think would appeal to a broader audience. But I really enjoyed all that flavor and may have to look into filtering or something to get the yeast to not clean up in the keg.
 
Wow, that looks good. You could try to cold crash it like a cider. Crash it @ 35-40, rack it to a secondary, crash it again for another 2 days and then rack to a keg. That should remove all the yeast.
 
Wow, that looks good. You could try to cold crash it like a cider. Crash it @ 35-40, rack it to a secondary, crash it again for another 2 days and then rack to a keg. That should remove all the yeast.

I cold crashed primary at 44 for a week but didn't do a secondary. I'm not sure it's possible to get all the yeast out without filtering.
 
I've had pretty good luck with that method with back-sweetening my ciders and bottling without killing off the yeast. I've never had it start the fermentation process start again in the bottles. My cider yeast does compact well so that may help the process of cleaning it up.

It could be the aging process cleaning it up as well and removing the yeast process doesn't help as much.
 
Have to work today, but I'm drinking that imaginary beer shared by an imaginary friend in an imaginary glass. Tastes great! Thanks KingBrian.
 
Nice looking pint you got there KB! You should try out 1318 sometime and see how you like it, if you have not done so already. It's not nearly as estery as 1968 but has a great malt profile.

I thought I would share a pic of my test 1187 bitter... the malt flavor is very good, though it has toned down some now that it's been in the keg for a few days.

100_2907.jpg
 
I cold crashed primary at 44 for a week but didn't do a secondary. I'm not sure it's possible to get all the yeast out without filtering.

Going to throw something out here and then duck for the flames. If you're looking to shut it down at a certain point in time and you intend to keg or bottle with a secondary yeast ... how about a very SMALL amount of something like potassium metabisulphite or one of the other agents used by wineries to kill off the yeast prior to bottling?
 
I think the levels at which the k-meta effects the yeast are above the taste threshold. I could be wrong though, maybe someone with wine experience could comment. Besides the taste though, it would kind of make me feel dirty. :D
 
Heh. I hear you. As soon as I posted that, I thought about the first wine kit I ever made for my wife. I was a wine noob and bought some metabisulfite because I didn't want a bunch of bottle bombs if I was going to age it. Stupid me, didn't read the fine print on the packet of "mystery additives" that came with the kit. It came with a pre-measured amount of sulfite. I added more when I bottled. It was almost a year in the bottle before that beer stopped tasting like you were sucking on a match.

My LHBS also sells a product called super kleer. I think it's chitosan and something else. The owner says if you use it you need to add bottling yeast because it will also drop the bulk of your yeast out of suspension.

As you might tell, I am not a big filtering fan. Filters cost money and they're just something else I'd have to clean.

Again though. The thought of using a different additive to knock your yeast out to preserve a "point in time" may still leave you feeling dirty. But if there is no taste impact, what's the difference between using a chemical to drop the yeast out of suspension, and using a process to accomplish the same result?

We use nutrients for yeast health and other supplements for clarity, head retention, etc. If it does not affect the taste negatively, it's just another tool.

Plan B, always viable, is to just brew smaller batches and drink faster ;)
 
Another partially OT thread. I don't have a great deal of experience with constructing British beer recipes. I am shooting for something that loosely fits the special/best bitter category and in the low to mid 30s for my IBU range. My OG will be around 1.044.

My dad was coming to town this weekend and his LHBS carries a wider variety of hops than mine does. So I had him grab me an ounce each of Target (10.5); Challenger (7.0) and Northdown (9.6). I've been reading the profile of each (Target is the only one I've used before), and trying to figure out my hopping schedule.

Part of me says to go with an equal blend of all 3 for both bittering and flavor/aroma. But can somebody who's a little more experienced with British beers suggest another alternative with this mix of hops?

Also, would "hop bursting" or pushing most of my hop additions to the 30 min or less mark, be appropriate here. I would certainly get flavor and aroma doing it that way. But would it throw the malt out of balance?

The cohumulone for all 3 seems to be in the 20-35% of total acids range. But I am not sure whether that will cause them to be harsh for flavor purposes.
 
FWIW. I contacted a friend who worked at a brewpub as the primary brewer for several years on this matter, and this was his response:

It really all depends on what strain of yeast you're using. Ringwood (used by Gritty's, Geary's, Shipyard, etc etc, as you know) is not much like the others. The best way to reduce diacetyl is to; 1) pitch plenty of yeast, for a 5 gal batch at 1.040 I'd be doing at least a liter starter, and if the gravity was any higher I'd go to 1500 or even 2000 mL; 2) aerate really well; 3) diacetyl rest: after primary fermentation is over, keep the temperature up for at least a day, longer with a stronger beer. Also, esp. with a stronger beer, you may need to rouse the yeast (i.e. shake the hell out of the fermenter). Ringwood really likes to flocculate. The idea with all these steps is to have plenty of healthy yeast and to keep it active after fermentation to reduce that diacetyl. I've made Ringwood beers with no detectable diacetyl, so it is possible; it does produce a lot during fermentation, but will clean it up if you let it.

With other British yeasts, as I said, it depends on the characteristics of the individual strain, though there are some general rules. If you want higher maltiness (leaving aside the obvious steps in recipe formulation like using plenty of specialty malts and keeping the hop bill small), choosing a lower-attenuating strain and mashing at higher temperatures are good ways to go. For maximum ester formation, underpitching and underaerating will work, though those have side effects (like diacetyl). The easiest way to increase esters is to pitch the yeast at a high temperature (68-70 F for most British yeasts would do it, and you can let many of them rise to 75 with no ill effects). For the vast majority of British yeasts 62 is a pretty low starting point. The (greatly simplified) reason for all that is that most esters are formed during the growth phase, before fermentation starts and the airlock bubbles, and they're formed much faster at higher temps. So, lengthen the growth phase or raise the temp and you'll get more esters.

As far as temp crashing, I'm a fan, and with most British yeasts they'll flocc REALLY fast if you drop the temp fast. Try to get them as close to 32 as you can, as fast as you can. BUT, with any yeast that produces a noticeable amount of diacetyl (which is most), let it sit a day or so at fermentation temp after the primary is done. You'll end up with a much smoother brew.

Also, I'd be concerned with any 1.040 ale that took 5 days, or any more than 72 hours, to ferment. If it's taking longer than that you're probably underpitching and/or underaerating.

So I'm feeling pretty good about my 5-6 day turnaround here, where flavor retention is concerned, and my OG is low.
 
FWIW. I contacted a friend who worked at a brewpub as the primary brewer for several years on this matter, and this was his response:

Honestly, some of this advice seems specific to large tank fermentation, so it may not apply directly, especially in terms of temps. At least that's my impression.

Not saying some of the recommendations won't still apply, but that is my impression.

I think we're trying to produce a British profile of esters without the diacetyl. Since MO is low in nitrogen, need to ensure we clean up that diacetyl somehow (big starter, oxygenation, D-rest, etc). This is the one big question I have with the 64-68-64-crash ferm schedule proposed in this thread. Does that really allow enough clean-up of the diacetyl?

It also seems to me that you need to use a good amount of yeast nutrient to increase FAN and valine to minimize diacetyl production in the first place, especially because of the low nitrogen content of MO.

Feel free to call me an idiot. I am no expert in British beers, but brewing a beer with good esters and no detectable diacetyl does not seem simple if you're going to drop ferm temp at the end of fermentation and crash, hence minimizing the chance for the yeast to clean up diacetyl.
 
Honestly, some of this advice seems specific to large tank fermentation, so it may not apply directly, especially in terms of temps. At least that's my impression.

Yes, temps I would agree can change significantly based on size of the fermentation vessel, but the schedule should be similar, assuming you're also taking gravity readings to verify.
 
I, for one, am looking to retain a bit of diacetyl. Not much, but a little really helps pull these beers together, I feel. By holding at 64 towards the end of fermentation, I found that diacetyl is being reduced slowly and if you monitor the flavor, you can crash cool whenever you like the level.
 
I think we're trying to produce a British profile of esters without the diacetyl. Since MO is low in nitrogen, need to ensure we clean up that diacetyl somehow (big starter, oxygenation, D-rest, etc). This is the one big question I have with the 64-68-64-crash ferm schedule proposed in this thread. Does that really allow enough clean-up of the diacetyl?

I agree. While I think some beer's can get away with a 5 day ferment and then cold crash to the keg, I think a solid d-rest is necessary somewhere along the line. Also, I am not entirely convinced the loss of English yeast character is directly related to leaving the beer on the yeast (1-2 weeks) - rather I have found that there is something about cold crashing/cooling that seems to help maintain some of those flavors more so than just a short ferment time.
 
I, for one, am looking to retain a bit of diacetyl. Not much, but a little really helps pull these beers together, I feel. By holding at 64 towards the end of fermentation, I found that diacetyl is being reduced slowly and if you monitor the flavor, you can crash cool whenever you like the level.

OK, good info. What are you doing for aeration, yeast nutrients, pitching rates?
 
I agree. While I think some beer's can get away with a 5 day ferment and then cold crash to the keg, I think a solid d-rest is necessary somewhere along the line.

This was another datapoint that seemed to be specific to larger vessel fermentation. Specifically, 5 days including D-rest time sounds about right for a 30bbl tank. 5 gal fermentor? Not so sure.
 
OK, good info. What are you doing for aeration, yeast nutrients, pitching rates?

For aeration I shake the hell out of the bucket for 2 minutes or so. I also transfer from the kettle to the fermenter through a hose with a little aerator thing at the end that looks like a cone.

I add a half teaspoon of wyeast yeast nutrient per 5.5 gallon batch at 10 minutes remaining in the boil. I also always adjust my water to get the Ca+ to over 50 ppm, but usually keep it below 100 ppm.

For pitching rates I go off the mr. malty calculator.
 
For aeration I shake the hell out of the bucket for 2 minutes or so. I also transfer from the kettle to the fermenter through a hose with a little aerator thing at the end that looks like a cone.

I add a half teaspoon of wyeast yeast nutrient per 5.5 gallon batch at 10 minutes remaining in the boil. I also always adjust my water to get the Ca+ to over 50 ppm, but usually keep it below 100 ppm.

For pitching rates I go off the mr. malty calculator.


Sounds good. Only difference in my process is I use pure O2, but otherwise similar. I think I may use "extra" yeast nutrient on MO-based beers from now on though.
 
This was another datapoint that seemed to be specific to larger vessel fermentation. Specifically, 5 days including D-rest time sounds about right for a 30bbl tank. 5 gal fermentor? Not so sure.

I think 5 days is highly achievable on a 5 gallon scale, especially if the beer is held at 68 during fermentation and not dropped to 64. That is actually the temperature scheme I plan to use on my next bitter with wyeast 1318. I can't remember exactly without looking back, but the special bitter I did earlier in this thread was done in about that time. I may have let it sit at 64 until day 6 or so to reduce the diacetyl a bit, but the diacetyl probably would have been at an acceptable level at day 5 if I had left it at 68.

Like I've said before, if you pitch enough healthy yeast, aerate well, and control the temps, there won't be anything unpleasant in the beer that necessitates leaving the beer on the yeast at ferment temps for any longer.
 
Hey everyone, been following this thread for a while and have found it incredibly informative.

Just wanted to let everyone know that priming Wyeast 1968 with speise still seems to produce that 'cidery' flavour that bierhaus was talking about. Mind you, this was the only time I've primed with speise, and it was from another batch of beer.

Other than that, I'm brewing 4 5gallon batches of best bitter over Wednesday-Thursday and comparing the intensity of malt and esters open V.S. closed fermentation will produce, as well as cold-crashing. Ideally, I would have brewed a single large batch, and then split it to reduce the amount of variables, but I don't have the equipment to do so.

Recipe is from Mosher's Radical Brewing, adjusted to my brewhouse, plus an extra 0.5oz addition of EKG at flame-out. I'm repitching a 5th generation Wyeast 1968 slurry.

Now for packaging, I only have 2 kegs, and no C02 tank. If I can't get the extra kegs and C02 before I'm ready to package, would my best option be to:

1) Bottle with priming sugar/DME/Speise after trying to drop out as much yeast as possible, and pitching a neutral yeast strain prior to bottling?
2)Bottle before fermentation is complete and let fermentation complete inside the bottles?

Thanks in advance!
 
Another update: On the 22nd and 28th of January I brewed two batches of beer, one an English best bitter and the other an English IPA - recipes were pretty simple and they were fermented with 1318 and 1187 respectively. Around day ten I made some tasting notes on my blog (http://perfectpint.blogspot.com/2011/02/english-yeast-fermentation-tasting.html) and had noted that I wasn't particularly happy with the bitter as the yeast/malt flavors were a bit muted and I thought the IPA was 'ok'. I crash cooled and dry hopped both beers for seven days with EKG. However, I didn't get around to kegging these beer's until this past Sunday, Feb 27. The beers had sat on the yeast cake for around 30 days, 7 of those on dryhop in the fridge.

Anyways, I tapped both kegs last night and the results are absolutely fantastic! The malt and yeast flavors are really vibrant, with everything in perfect balance. I used TF&Sons MO for the bitter and the biscuit profile is probably the best of all the bitter's I've made so far. The IPA isn't quite as hoppy as I would like, but the malt/yeast character is very nice. This has me wondering how important it is to take the beer off the yeast as to maintain these yeast flavors? I am starting to suspect that a two week fermentation is fine for yeast flavor, so long as you crash cool the beer. This getting very confusing - one experiments points to one thing and another to something different.

However, you all need to stop by and have pint! :D
 
Nice update. I have secured the 4 yeasts I will use and I think I will brew 2 consecutive batches on each, probably an ESB and an IPA.

I will be using 1187 Ringwood, 1318 London III, 1469 West Yorkshire, and 1968 London ESB.
 
Back
Top