British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

[GuldTuborg]

Is 1318 the Young's strain? I had always understood it was Boddington's. Or, do they use the same yeast?

 

[bierhaus15]

Is 1318 the Young's strain? I had always understood it was Boddington's. Or, do they use the same yeast?

No my bad, it's Boddington's. I always get 1318 and 1768 mixed up. Both great yeasts, haven't used Young's in a while, though 1318 has become a favorite as of late for bitters and milds.

 

[Saccharomyces]

One thing bothers me, though. If real English beer goes into a cask without being filtered, and if there are still unfermented sugars in there (not to mention priming sugar), and yeast which are asleep due to crashing--woudn't the yeast just wake up at some point and ferment the thing to thier limit? Is it the 55-degree cellar temp that allows priming without "cleaning up?" That makes ale a pretty parishable product, doesn't it?

They add a fining agent when priming in the cask, usually isinglass. That causes a quicker and more compact sediment to form in the cask. (Pale Ale, from the BA Classic Beer Style series, covers this topic)

 

[jmo88]

Not sure if this helps anyone or not, but I used 1187 a few times using both open fermentation and closed and slightly different fermentation temp regimens. My goal with the yeast was to emulate the ester profile of some beers from Portland Maine. If you haven't had some of the Ringwood, Sea Dog, or other pale type ales from this city, you should definitely seek them out. Though I wouldn't consider them to be similar to Fuller's or Young's, the unique ester profile is over the top.

I tried to research as much as possible about how to achieve this, but I ended up finding it sort of hopeless. In an interview on Sunday Session, Pugsley was asked about his Ringwood yeast and he claimed that homebrewers do not have access to it, despite the title of 1187 and the supposed derivation of WLP005. If I recall correctly, Pugsley's beers have been repitched thousands of times without using a fresh culture. So the way I understand it is that if 1187 was the original strain used in these beers, it has mutated so far from its original characteristics that it isn't even close to the same yeast.

I understand that it's not everyone's goal to get that profile from Ringwood. But, it is something to think about when trying to reproduce certain fermentation profiles from commercial beers. I don't think this is the case with Fuller's, but it may be for Tim Taylor or Sam Smith, for instance.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Here's another wrinkle I think is well on topic. Perhaps you guys can help me wrestle through it a bit, as this is a new angle for me, anyway. I was reading Stan Hieronymus's "Brewing with Wheat" today when I encountered this quote below, from Schönram's Eric Toft. To put it in context, he was talking about some of the challenges in brewing his Festweisse, in particular determining the flavor and color.

"I wanted the cloviness, esteriness to start...I would like to have more on the estery side. That's hard with the Vienna; the higher solubles cut down on the esters. But I want honest color"

So darker colored malts bring more solubles (hence the darker colors of the wort), but those solubles alter, and apparently suppress, the production or the presence (in terms of taste) of esters. That seems to be what he's claiming. Is there any reason why this phenomenon would be limited to weisbeir brewing? If not, would it be equally applicable to brewing an English bitter, for example? If so, does the choice of grainbill not only influence the malt character, but the ester character of the beer? This is totally new ground for me. Can anyone chime in with more information?

 

[rockfish42]

The higher kilning destroys the enzyme that liberates ferulic acid which is the precursor to 4-vinyl guiaiacol the clove ester he was looking to increase.

 

[GuldTuborg]

4-vinyl guiaiacol the clove ester

I thought that was a phenol, not an ester. Perhaps he misspoke, but he seems to think the malts affect the ester production, not phenol. Or, maybe I'm just still confused.

 

[KingBrianI]

Here's the progress of my test batch so far.

Pitched Saturday afternoon @ 63*
Allowed temp to free-rise
Beer hit 68* Sunday night - beer was SG ~1.034
Held at 68*
This morning (Monday) beer was SG ~1.020
Set fermentation freezer to 66*
Will set freezer to 64* this afternoon when I get home from work. I'm a little nervous about dropping the temp since this yeast doesn't need much persuasion to drop out. Hopefully it's got enough momentum that dropping it slowly to 64 doesn't stall it. I'm also a bit worried that there is going to be too much diacetyl in the beer and I won't be able to drop to 44 when FG is hit. I may have to do a short d-rest which will screw with the fermentation profile Fullers does. Oh well, I can cross that bridge when and if I get there.

 

[14thstreet]

KingBrianI, if it's a test batch, don't worry and don't deviate from your initial plan. Otherwise you may not learn something because it will be similar to what you've done before!

Someone mentioned oxidation and that touched my memory of the Fullers rebrew show on The Brewing Network. They mentioned that a fresh bottle was actually hoppier than the bottles we get over here. That would suggest this "malt flavor" is subdued, more balanced or even not present in the fresh product. That said, they also mentioned a noticeable difference in bottles that had been pasteurized or not. Apparently this process enhances oxidation products which could enhance some of the flavors one may be after.
Check out: http://www.professorbeer.com/articles/oxidative_staling_beer.html

 

[bierhaus15]

Someone mentioned oxidation and that touched my memory of the Fullers rebrew show on The Brewing Network. They mentioned that a fresh bottle was actually hoppier than the bottles we get over here. That would suggest this "malt flavor" is subdued, more balanced or even not present in the fresh product.

I've had Fullers ESB on cask a couple times now in England and while it is very hoppy when fresh (they dry hop it), more so than most people realize, the balance of flavors is still towards the malt. You don't get that oxidized-caramely taste like you do in the bottles we get over here, but the yeast and malt character is still pretty vibrant and well balanced. I don't think anyone here is looking to produce those oxidized, caramel flavors in their beer.

 

[KingBrianI]

Hopefully too much diacetyl doesn't even become an issue. I'm going to taste the gravity sample this afternoon and if it's not buttery then I think since it's almost completely attenuated I'll be in the clear. I'd just hate to have 5 gallons of undrinkable beer.

I don't think it is oxidation or pasteurization alone causing the malt flavors I'm looking for. I've tasted those flavors in fresh casked and bottle conditioned beers too. That's not to say it doesn't have some kind of symbiotic role, but it isn't the lone factor.

 

[14thstreet]

Thank you for the clarification. Sometimes with a broad yet rather narrow spectrum of flavors and thresholds, methods, ingredients, etc it all gets confusing. I can't say I've had the real McCoy but possibly the same malty characters I've experienced have either been missing or dissipate real early in the process, open ferment or not. I'm definitely interested in what you guys are trying to sort out.

 

[poley]

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, it's great reading!

I recently started doing english style, low-gravity beers, and while I've never had a true English example, I've done two batches using London Ale III (1368), and was very happy with the profile I got from that yeast in both an Ordinary Bitter and a Dark Mild. They were both fermented in plastic carboys with the screw-on lids left loose. They were fermented at ambient temps, which fluctuated from 65-72F.

 

[coypoo]

When you are talking about open fermentation is the space below the lid and the top of the krausen important? It sounds like you need a good amount of space there, so would it be better to ferment a 4 gal batch in a 6 gal bucket instead of 5 gallons in the same bucket?

 

[KingBrianI]

When you are talking about open fermentation is the space below the lid and the top of the krausen important? It sounds like you need a good amount of space there, so would it be better to ferment a 4 gal batch in a 6 gal bucket instead of 5 gallons in the same bucket?

I'm only just doing my first "open" fermentation but I think that as long as you have enough space that the krausen doesn't start overflowing you're fine. I think it is the (lack of) top pressure (and maybe a tiny bit of air exchange?) that is important.

 

[jmo88]

When you are talking about open fermentation is the space below the lid and the top of the krausen important? It sounds like you need a good amount of space there, so would it be better to ferment a 4 gal batch in a 6 gal bucket instead of 5 gallons in the same bucket?

The whole idea of open fermentation, from a homebrewer's standpoint is a mystery to me. I didn't notice any difference from my batches using the 'rest the lid on the top' method. But I am certainly not willing to write off the practice just yet. Also, does it really relieve that much pressure by doing this? How hard is it really for the co2 to be pushed through a standard airlock anyway? I've read that it's the lack of pressure that benefits the yeasts, but if it does benefit the fermentation to some degree, could diffusion also play a part here?

 

[poley]

I imagine it's the diffusion that helps, as the yeast probably likes the little bit of extra O2 that gets in, but that's just pure conjecture on my part.

As a note of comparison, in Stan hieronymus' Brewing with Wheat, many brewers that he interviews indicate the same thing about bavarian yeast getting O2 during fermentation, and how it's key to the yeast character in the beer.

 

[rockfish42]

I thought that was a phenol, not an ester. Perhaps he misspoke, but he seems to think the malts affect the ester production, not phenol. Or, maybe I'm just still confused.

Err, whoops
It is a phenol, I'd imagine depending on the ester the precursors might be destroyed by higher kilning.

 

[KingBrianI]

Just took a gravity reading and turned the temp down from 66 to 64. Gravity is at 1.016, so nearly there. The foaminess of the krausen had fallen but there are still chunks of yeast on the surface and the top of the beer is fizzing like a soda so I think the fermentation will finish out despite cooling the temperature. Tons of yeast still in suspension too, the sample was very cloudy.

Taste was very good for a beer this young. There was some diacetyl but not to "buttery" levels. It is pretty high though and could definitely stand to be reduced slightly. Hopefully the yeast will take it down slightly while finishing up the fermentation. Not too much though, since it's adding a nice butterscotch flavor and I think richening the mouthfeel. Esters are nice but subdued, I think because it took it so long to get up to 68*. I just need it to drop 5-6 pts now and I'll chill it down to 44 to hopefully "lock in" the flavors.

 

[bierhaus15]

The whole idea of open fermentation, from a homebrewer's standpoint is a mystery to me. I didn't notice any difference from my batches using the 'rest the lid on the top' method. But I am certainly not willing to write off the practice just yet. Also, does it really relieve that much pressure by doing this? How hard is it really for the co2 to be pushed through a standard airlock anyway? I've read that it's the lack of pressure that benefits the yeasts, but if it does benefit the fermentation to some degree, could diffusion also play a part here?

Put very simply: Top pressure is not really an issue with our homebrew setups, 5 gallons of fermenting beer is not going to create enough pressure to slow ester production significantly. Ferment temps, aeration, and pitch rate is way more important. Also, the amount of pressure it takes to push c02 out of an airlock is so small it's really a non-issue. Top pressure is important with large scale brewing since dissolved co2 inhibits, or slows the development of esters and yeast character - think lagers. Open fermentation allows for a greater surface area and more effiecient c02 dispersal in those styles where esters are wanted (thus English, Belgian, German wheat yeasts). Fermenter geometry for 5 gallons isn't going to make a huge difference either.

Homebrewers get benefits from open fermenting with some increased ester production (why and how I don't know - maybe oxygen diffusion?) and the ability to closely control fermentation development. Yeast rousing, top cropping, and easy removal of dead yeast/hop debris before high krausen all lends to a fuller, cleaner, and tastier beer.

 

[jmo88]

Put very simply: Top pressure is not really an issue with our homebrew setups, 5 gallons of fermenting beer is not going to create enough pressure to slow ester production significantly. Ferment temps, aeration, and pitch rate is way more important. Also, the amount of pressure it takes to push c02 out of an airlock is so small it's really a non-issue. Top pressure is important with large scale brewing since dissolved co2 inhibits, or slows the development of esters and yeast character - think lagers. Open fermentation allows for a greater surface area and more effiecient c02 dispersal in those styles where esters are wanted (thus English, Belgian, German wheat yeasts). Fermenter geometry for 5 gallons isn't going to make a huge difference either.

Homebrewers get benefits from open fermenting with some increased ester production (why and how I don't know - maybe oxygen diffusion?) and the ability to closely control fermentation development. Yeast rousing, top cropping, and easy removal of dead yeast/hop debris before high krausen all lends to a fuller, cleaner, and tastier beer.

There was a member on here regularly a while back that worked with Ringwood in a commercial brewery as their primary yeast. His claim was that it was due to pressure and he thought it carried over to the homebrew realm as well. I agree with you, however, that our situation is much different. Commercial breweries have more of an issue with pressure and that may help them in that regard.

Removing the first krausen layer, may be beneficial. This practice usually goes along with top cropping and open fermentation, so there may be something to that. I believe Kai did an experiment and posted somewhat inconclusive results (braukaiser wiki) on some german beers comparing skimming vs. letting it fall back into the wort.

 

[KingBrianI]

SG for my beer was ~1.014 this morning. Fermentation is definitely slowing down. I gave it a bit of a stir with the wine thief to try to get it to attenuate a little more. At the current rate I'm hoping for it to hit about 1.011 tomorrow morning at which time I'll chill it down. I hope these last couple of points don't take so long that the beer cleans up while it's finishing. I may chill the beer tomorrow morning whatever the gravity may be. It should drop to at least 1.012 by then I expect.

 

[KingBrianI]

I've just realized I could try a few different things with the experimental batch I have going now. I'm planning on kegging the beer, but I have a couple of 5L mini-kegs I might use to test out how casking affects the flavor and maltiness when fermented this way. I was thinking that instead of priming one cask, I would fill it when the beer is 1-2 pts above expected FG. I could also fill the other cask at kegging time and prime that one. I haven't decided what I should do with the casks though. If I add beer to the first one when it still needs to attenuate a couple points, do I crash cool it along with the rest of the beer still in the bucket, or do I store it at 65-68 degrees for a week or two before cooling and serving? There are several things that can be tested with these casks. Crash cool or not, effect of priming sugar, conditioning in the 60s or at serving temps, and differences between naturally carbonated and force carbonated beer. Any suggestions?

 

[poley]

If I add beer to the first one when it still needs to attenuate a couple points, do I crash cool it along with the rest of the beer still in the bucket, or do I store it at 65-68 degrees for a week or two before cooling and serving?

Keep it at fermentation temp for another week or so before crash cooling. The beer will continue to ferment, naturally conditioning the beer in the keg. Just make sure that you are correct about how much further it will attenuate, you don't want to over-carbonate it.

Once you crash it, you'll need to pull a couple of pints off it to get the yeast trub out. Just FYI.

 

[KingBrianI]

Yeah, I've used these as casks before so I know how to do it. My questions is basically should I crash cool the mini keg before letting it warm up to naturally carbonate (I think this is what Fuller's does according to what I remember from the CYBI? interviews), or should I let it carbonate without a cold crash. The idea is to see whether the beer would "clean up" too much by letting it naturally carbonate. I guess I could fill two mini-kegs and cold crash one before carbing, and not cold crash the other. That would show whether the cold crash would lock in the flavors in a naturally carbonated beer or not.

 

[poley]

My recollection was that Jamil recommended just letting the fermentation go to completion w/o any fiddling with the temps. That's my vibe too, and the nice thing about having it in a keg is that you can sample it, and when it tastes how you want it -- crash it.

 

[KingBrianI]

In the rebrew show for Fuller's ESB and London Pride they found that fiddling with the temp was actually the key to getting the right malt expression. The problem with the mini-kegs is that I can't just sample them whenever. Once I open one I have to drink the 5 L in a few days. I'm using them as basically casks. I will have 2-3 gallons in a corny that will be force carbed bu tI'm not transferring the beer to that until after the crash cool and about a week of sitting at 44*F.

 

[flabyboy]

That's one of the yeasts I was very disappointed with. I was expecting that Sam Smith's flavor and ended up with a very clean boring beer. Probably fermented too long and let it clean up too much.

I've been wondering about that too. Casked ale and bottle conditioned beers seem like they would be susceptible to being "cleaned up". Obviously something prevents it since the cask ales and bottle conditioned british beers I've had have been full of that british character. Something else must be going on.

Sam Smith use open fermentation quite a bit. Do you have a spot other than your previously mentioned chamber where you can maintain temps in the low 60 ? I would try open fermentation and see what happens. Not sure if you watch brewing tv from NB, but episode 4 is all about open fermentation. Heres the link

http://www.brewingtv.com/episodes/2010/5/17/brewing-tv-episode-4-open-fermentation.html

Update: should have read the whole thread before posting. Can't wait to see how this turns out

 

[poley]

In the rebrew show for Fuller's ESB and London Pride they found that fiddling with the temp was actually the key to getting the right malt expression.

Ahh. I haven't listened to the rebrew show, since it seemed like fiddling with the temp and the malts/hops were the issue. Guess I'll be doing that soon then

 

[flabyboy]

SG for my beer was ~1.014 this morning. Fermentation is definitely slowing down. I gave it a bit of a stir with the wine thief to try to get it to attenuate a little more. At the current rate I'm hoping for it to hit about 1.011 tomorrow morning at which time I'll chill it down. I hope these last couple of points don't take so long that the beer cleans up while it's finishing. I may chill the beer tomorrow morning whatever the gravity may be. It should drop to at least 1.012 by then I expect.

With open fermentation you need to stir up the yeast a bit. Apparently they are more likely to drop out when they have all that air to breath

 

[jmo88]

There are several things that can be tested with these casks. Crash cool or not, effect of priming sugar, conditioning in the 60s or at serving temps, and differences between naturally carbonated and force carbonated beer. Any suggestions?

Nice that you have those 5L mini kegs. That'll be perfect for experimenting like this. I vote for crash cooling or not. It seems that much of what you have been questioning was the ability to capture this fleeting moment of perfection in the fermentation of these styles. That seems like a good place to start.

 

[bierhaus15]

My questions is basically should I crash cool the mini keg before letting it warm up to naturally carbonate (I think this is what Fuller's does according to what I remember from the CYBI? interviews), or should I let it carbonate without a cold crash.

Fuller's 'matures' its cask beer at 43F before secondary fermentation in the cask with an addition of new yeast. I would give it a go.

Edit: I just went back and listened to both Fuller's CYBI episodes and thought I would post the fermentation profile for easy access. Pitch at 63F and raise to 68F over 8-10 hours, ferment at 68F until 1/2 gravity drops and then chill to 63F. When gravity is 1/4 or 1/5 from target gravity, chill to 43F for 2 days. Rack for maturation, 2 weeks at 50F.

 

[KingBrianI]

Well, just checked the gravity and it hasn't dropped at all from this mornings 1.014. I think chilling to 64 slowed (or stopped) fermentation like I was afraid of. I mashed for 90 minutes at 150 so it really should have a lower FG. Also, I tasted the sample and I think the diacetyl is too high. It's not overwhelming when tasting a small sample, but I think it would be if you were drinking pints of the beer. Now comes the tough decision. Do I warm the beer back to 68 and try to get it to drop some more and possibly clean up slightly, or do I go forward with a possibly undrinkable under-attenuated, overly-diacetyl-y beer in the name of science?

 

[jmo88]

Well, just checked the gravity and it hasn't dropped at all from this mornings 1.014. I think chilling to 64 slowed (or stopped) fermentation like I was afraid of. I mashed for 90 minutes at 150 so it really should have a lower FG. Also, I tasted the sample and I think the diacetyl is too high. It's not overwhelming when tasting a small sample, but I think it would be if you were drinking pints of the beer. Now comes the tough decision. Do I warm the beer back to 68 and try to get it to drop some more and possibly clean up slightly, or do I go forward with a possibly undrinkable under-attenuated, overly-diacetyl-y beer in the name of science?

I thought that's what the mini kegs were for. Rack off some and drop it, rack off another and let it sit or whatever. Maybe I misunderstood what you were planning with these?

 

[flabyboy]

Warm it back up and agitate the yeast. May want to put a lid on at this point

 

[KingBrianI]

I thought that's what the mini kegs were for. Rack off some and drop it, rack off another and let it sit or whatever. Maybe I misunderstood what you were planning with these?

The majority of the beer is going into a normal corny keg and being force carbonated. The mini-kegs would be to test how casking effects the flavors since it was mentioned earlier that if we were chilling the beer right after fermentation to stop the yeast from cleaning up the beer too much, wouldn't the yeast clean up when it was carbonating the cask or bottle? So I was thinking about filling two mini-kegs. One would have been chilled down to 44 along with all the beer going to the corny and the other would have been allowed to carbonate at room temp immediately with no crash cool. That might have shown whether the crash cooling locks in the yeast flavors or whether the yeast would clean up while carbonating the cask despite the crash cool. Now that bierhaus has confirmed that Fullers do indeed crash cool their beer before casking, I don't see the second mini-keg as being needed. I'll still fill one mini-keg to test casking and its effect, but I need this beer to attenuate more first. If it is 4 or 5 points above FG, then I'll have a way overcarbed cask. I'd like to cask at about 1.012.

Warm it back up and agitate the yeast. May want to put a lid on at this point

I agitated the yeast this morning and again this afternoon when I checked the gravity. There is still a bunch of yeast in suspension because the sample was pretty cloudy. But stirring the beer did kick up huge quarter-sized chunks of yeast that had dropped out.

The problem with warming it up is that it would be deviating from the fermentation profile I wanted to test. I think at this point I'll continue to monitor the gravity for the next day or two and if it doesn't drop then I'll consider warming it up. If I did warm it, I would get it up to 58 and as soon as I thought it was done fermenting I would chill it. Hopefully that keeps the malt flavor around that I'm looking for.

 

[elkdog]

What a great thread! I'm especially interested in your experiment, KB, as I just brewed an ESB today based on the malt bill Bob preaches (80% MO, 10% English Crystal, 10% Demerara), and pitched at 63F. It's now rising to 68F, but I wasn't sure yet if I wanted to chill it back down to end fermentation (I'm aiming for an ESB like Fuller's but a bit drier, hence the sugar). I pitched WLP002 from a 1/2 gallon starter, with a hop bill not dissimilar to your Common Room ESB. I'm wondering if cooling it to a lesser extent toward the end of fermentation might preserve the malt character while still getting the diacetyl cleaned up. Following this thread closely, and learning a lot from you folk who've brewed and read more on the topic.

Like a lot of you, I spent time in London not long ago, and want to make a beer that reminds me of the ones I had there, which for my money are the best beers going.

 

[KingBrianI]

Gravity is down to 1.013 tonight and diacetyl has reduced slightly. I'm going to give it another day or two at 64 and hope it drops another point or two. I'd also like the diacetyl to reduce just a bit more. I have to say however, the flavor is really close to what I'm looking for. Really nice maltiness and subtle pleasant esters. I think it's going to be very good.

 

[MuddyMo]

Prost, with extreme prejudice, (for English style ales!)

 

[elkdog]

Gravity is down to 1.013 tonight and diacetyl has reduced slightly. I'm going to give it another day or two at 64 and hope it drops another point or two. I'd also like the diacetyl to reduce just a bit more. I have to say however, the flavor is really close to what I'm looking for. Really nice maltiness and subtle pleasant esters. I think it's going to be very good.

That's exciting to hear. So you're rousing the yeast pretty regularly, then, to get that last bit of attenuation at 64?