Brewing water

[jambop]

So baring in mind that the analysis of brewing water is important I have tracked down an analysis of the local tap water. The major constituents are as follows
Ca 47 ppm
Cl 3.46
Mg 3.83
K 0.46
Na 3.48
SO4 8.3
HCO3 156
NO3 2.65
and pH is between 7.4 and 7.9 so quite alkaline for beer making.
When I plug my analysis into my water calculator it is suggesting a 30% dilution with distilled water. I am not going to do this as I do not have a local supplier and would require 15L every brew. I have plug the figures into my water calculator and it is suggesting no acid to the mash water and 2.5ml of 88% lactic acid to my 15L of sparge water .
Long question short if I follow the recommended water additions without the dilution will the beer be OK ? I am assuming that because I declines the dilution factor they have taken that into account with the additions?

 

[hotbeer]

Long question short if I follow the recommended water additions without the dilution will the beer be OK ?

Short answer to long question is... it depends.

How bad do you want the very bestest beer possible?

Though there might be something in your water you need to address. Especially since it said to dilute your water. Or is this an extract batch? However those that regularly deal with water chemistry and know the in's and out's will have to say if your analysis is toward the bad beer side of things.

I have only done all-grain. I just buy bottled water of a known analysis that is close enough and so far don't see the need to do additions as I've not connected any issues I have with my beer to water quality.

The recipe or type of beer might change some answers. So to will if it's an extract brew or all-grain.

 

[jdauria]

Really depends what you are making, your mineral numbers are pretty low and a good starting canvas, but the carbonate (HCO3) is high and pale beers may not come out well with that, darker beers would be ok. Water pH normally does not matter, just mash pH, but depending on what you are brewing it may be hard to get your mash pH in range. Are you planning on adding brewing salts also? Where do you live where there is no local supplier of distilled water? You can usually find distilled or Reverse Osmosis water (sometimes labeled as "purified water" in most supermarkets, Target, big box warehouses etc.

 

[jambop]

Short answer to long question is... it depends.

How bad do you want the very bestest beer possible?

Though there might be something in your water you need to address. Especially since it said to dilute your water. Or is this an extract batch? However those that regularly deal with water chemistry and know the in's and out's will have to say if your analysis is toward the bad beer side of things.

I have only done all-grain. I just buy bottled water of a known analysis that is close enough and so far don't see the need to do additions as I've not connected any issues I have with my beer to water quality.

The recipe or type of beer might change some answers. So to will if it's an extract brew or all-grain.

I have a very detailed water analysis of the local water. When I punch in the figures into Brewers friend for example it tells me that there are two areas where the water is out of spec BUT not to an extent that it is likely to detrimental to the brewing process . The Grainfather app that I am using suggests that the alkalinity is high and gives a list of additives to aid the brewing process and help achieve the target water profile of the beer type in this case London.

 

[hotbeer]

That's one of the reasons I don't use my tap water for coffee tea or beer. Both alkalinity and pH are high.

Simpler for me to just get bottled than to treat it. Maybe as I get more into beer and better at the other things then I might gain more interest in treating my water. Currently it's just more complication I don't need.

 

[jambop]

That's one of the reasons I don't use my tap water for coffee tea or beer. Both alkalinity and pH are high.

Simpler for me to just get bottled than to treat it. Maybe as I get more into beer and better at the other things then I might gain more interest in treating my water. Currently it's just more complication I don't need.

Unfortunately that is really an over simplification. To get the right character from your ingredients you need a fairly specific water profile... your bottled water could actually be less useful than my tap water in terms of the ions present in the water. The difference between pH 5.4 and 7.9 sounds huge but in terms of acidity it is not really in fact I am sure you could get away without altering the pH of the water for mashing without losing too much efficiency but if specific ions are not there in the right concentrations you could end up with a big drop in efficiency and an off tasting beer... so I am reading in the references . I am more concerned about the Ca, Mg and SO4 than the pH to be honest.

 

[marc1]

This is is the beginner's forum - are you brewing extract or all grain?

Post #6 says mashing, so you are brewing all grain?

If you provide your grist, mash and sparge volumes, water additions, and goals, we can help you more.

 

[cire]

You mention mash and sparge liquor, so will assume it's an all grain brew.

If your brew is anything but a very dark porter or stout, I'd start by finding a different way of determining water treatment. pH of your untreated brewing water is of no importance, and certainly you shouldn't contemplate mashing in liquor with 156 ppm HCO3 unless it was at the extreme of darkest beers.

 

[jambop]

You mention mash and sparge liquor, so will assume it's an all grain brew.

If your brew is anything but a very dark porter or stout, I'd start by finding a different way of determining water treatment. pH of your untreated brewing water is of no importance, and certainly you shouldn't contemplate mashing in liquor with 156 ppm HCO3 unless it was at the extreme of darkest beers.

Yes there is a problem in that department however
A There is nothing I can do about that and
B Brewers friend determine that although out of spec the brew should be doable , it is a London ESB
C I am not interested in very pale beers these are what I am trying to get away from
D the only pale beer that I will be making is Wiess bier and it is naturally cloudy

One thing I find curious is that even though I do have very slightly alkaline water none of the water calculators advise adding acid to the mash water. I can sort of understand that from the point of view that pH5 to pH 7 is a one hundred fold decrease in H ions pH 5 is an incredibly weak acid solution to start with I think the acidity of the malt must be enough to counteract that decrease ?? I am more concerned about Ca which is low and could be problematic if not corrected. I have done the calculation on Grainfather and it only advises a tiny addition of acid to the mash liquor together with mineral additions at both mashing and sparging.

 

[marc1]

Yes there is a problem in that department however
A There is nothing I can do about that and
B Brewers friend determine that although out of spec the brew should be doable , it is a London ESB
C I am not interested in very pale beers these are what I am trying to get away from
D the only pale beer that I will be making is Wiess bier and it is naturally cloudy

A There's plenty you can do about it, you can add acid to your mash.
B What does doable mean? What is your predicted mash pH?
C OK. You can make them, too, you just need to add acid to your mash.
D What does cloudiness have to do with anything? This has to do with the roast level of the grains impacting mash pH.

 

[cire]

Yes there is a problem in that department however
A There is nothing I can do about that and
B Brewers friend determine that although out of spec the brew should be doable , it is a London ESB
C I am not interested in very pale beers these are what I am trying to get away from
D the only pale beer that I will be making is Wiess bier and it is naturally cloudy

Just to confirm @marc1

A. You could add acid to reduce the alkalinity. I would suggest by about two thirds for a beer like Fuller's ESB. ESB is a style created by BJCP.
B Yes, the brew is doable, assuming the brewer is happy with a mash pH of circa 5.7 with a suitable level of extra calcium.
C A very pale beer would preferably be brewed with circa 90% less alkalinity.
D For a Weiss bier, I'd eliminate all alkalinity.

I'm British, so know the brew and would use either hydrochloric or sulfuric acid to reduce alkalinity. I understand phosphoric and lactic acids are favored in other parts of the world.

 

[jambop]

Just to confirm @marc1

A. You could add acid to reduce the alkalinity. I would suggest by about two thirds for a beer like Fuller's ESB. ESB is a style created by BJCP.
B Yes, the brew is doable, assuming the brewer is happy with a mash pH of circa 5.7 with a suitable level of extra calcium.
C A very pale beer would preferably be brewed with circa 90% less alkalinity.
D For a Weiss bier, I'd eliminate all alkalinity.

I'm British, so know the brew and would use either hydrochloric or sulfuric acid to reduce alkalinity. I understand phosphoric and lactic acids are favored in other parts of the world.

Hi Cire

Yes acid could certainly be added to the mash water to increase acidity but its is strange that the Grainfather water calculator is not suggesting this?? It is suggesting adding acid to the sparge water a small volume 2.6ml @ 88% to 12 L of water . The other additions in very small quantities are Calcium Chloride, Calcium Sulphate and Magnesium Sulphate to both mash water and sparge water.

edit
Sulphuric and Hydrochloric acids are not obtainable without a tedious form filling ceremony Phosphoric or Lactic can be sent through the post from brew suppliers... a no brainer for me I live in the sticks. Of course if I was still toiling away in research I could get all the stuff for nowt but then I would have less time to play

edit
so I have just revisited the Grainfather water calculator and I have now an acid addition to the mash water 1.8ml for 24L the only constituent out of spec is Chloride but it is only 0.3 ppm low so I think we have a doable brew

 

[Holden Caulfield]

When I plug my analysis into my water calculator it is suggesting a 30% dilution with distilled water. I am not going to do this as I do not have a local supplier and would require 15L every brew.

In case you may not know this - from a brewing perspective distilled and RO water are essentially the same except RO water from one of those water kiosks is only ~30 cents a gallon and they are quite ubiquitous.

 

[jambop]

In case you may not know this - from a brewing perspective distilled and RO water are essentially the same except RO water from one of those water kiosks is only ~30 cents a gallon and they are quite ubiquitous.

Living in France the water is wholesome enough to drink directly from the tap consequently the product is not readily available here. Why anybody would want to drink demineralised water is a mystery to me unless the water provided is suspect.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Why anybody would want to drink demineralised water is a mystery to me unless the water provided is suspect.

Living in Houston, the heart of the US petrochemical industry, our water comes out of the tap three ways - chunky, super chunky, and extra thick

Actually, I drink the tap stuff which won't kill you at least in the short run, but is very high in HCO3 and chloramines amongst other volatiles so while palatable, it will make terrible beer.

 

[jambop]

Purely as an after thought would adding a phosphate buffering agent to the water not have the effect of bringing the pH to the desired level? I only say that because I happen to have the very tabs.

 

[cire]

Put simply, forget about adding phosphate buffers to make beer, a fools paradise. If your starting point in the mash is pH maybe 5.4 at most, ending around pH 4 in your glass, why add a buffer at the start?

 

[jambop]

Living in Houston, the heart of the US petrochemical industry, our water comes out of the tap three ways - chunky, super chunky, and extra thick

Actually, I drink the tap stuff which won't kill you at least in the short run, but is very high in HCO3 and chloramines amongst other volatiles so while palatable, it will make terrible beer.

That made me laugh
Now believe it or not I too live in an oil producing area! I could take a funny photo to show you of a nodding duck oil type pump thingamybob and in the background not more than 250m away is a lovely vineyard producing very nice wine. Fortunately ye olde drinking water comes from the nearby Pyrenean mountains so it is nice and clean.

 

[jambop]

Put simply, forget about adding phosphate buffers to make beer, a fools paradise. If your starting point in the mash is pH maybe 5.4 at most, ending around pH 4 in your glass, why add a buffer at the start?

If it was all you had it would drag the water pH into the right range for mashing ? Anyway just fired off an order for the additives I needed for the correction all should be good.

 

[cire]

If it was all I had, I doubt I'd offer advice on brewing to others.

 

[jambop]

If it was all I had, I doubt I'd offer advice on brewing to others.

Is the correct answer! More to this beer malarkey than meets the eye, got all the stuff on order now. Just as a quick question do you bottle or keg and which do you find gives a better drink ? I have been using these little mini kegs and they are good ... but I also bottle. I find the mini kegs lead to over supping whereas I tend to keep track of the number of bottles I have consumed

 

[jerrylotto]

I'm surprised no one mentioned chloramines and chlorine used to stabilize tap water. Whatever else you do with the chemistry make certain that you use Campden tablets (sodium or potassium metabisulfite) to neutralize free chlorine and chloramines.

 

[cire]

Is the correct answer! More to this beer malarkey than meets the eye, got all the stuff on order now. Just as a quick question do you bottle or keg and which do you find gives a better drink ? I have been using these little mini kegs and they are good ... but I also bottle. I find the mini kegs lead to over supping whereas I tend to keep track of the number of bottles I have consumed

To be fair, a good beer will be a good beer, if treated well, whichever way it is contained. Cask conditioned and served through a beer engine is without doubt better than by any other method, although with a shorter lifespan. Bottles are convenient for a cold beer in summer and good for higher gravity beers that improve with age, but require more effort. All my beers are naturally conditioned and being retired have time, necessary space and equipment to mix and match at will, but most will find its way into plastic pressure barrels either for serving directly or be bottled after a week or so conditioning.

 

[cire]

I'm surprised no one mentioned chloramines and chlorine used to stabilize tap water. Whatever else you do with the chemistry make certain that you use Campden tablets (sodium or potassium metabisulfite) to neutralize free chlorine and chloramines.

A good point for many, but as both the OP and myself live in Europe, rather few seem know of that problem without reading North American experiences.

 

[jambop]

To be fair, a good beer will be a good beer, if treated well, whichever way it is contained. Cask conditioned and served through a beer engine is without doubt better than by any other method, although with a shorter lifespan. Bottles are convenient for a cold beer in summer and good for higher gravity beers that improve with age, but require more effort. All my beers are naturally conditioned and being retired have time, necessary space and equipment to mix and match at will, but most will find its way into plastic pressure barrels either for serving directly or be bottled after a week or so conditioning.

I used to drink in the " Athletic Arm" aka "The diggers" in Edinburgh their Heavy was served using a beer engine... unparalleled they have about 12 fonts all serving heavy it is just up the road from Tynecastle and on a Saturday when the Hearts are at home the place is heaving but never a problem getting served.
Back in the day I had two 25L beerspheres one drinking and one conditioning but gave them away when I moved to France. I am just getting back into it I did mostly extract brewing them but now I have gone over to grain and it is more demanding of technique also there is so much more stuff available now.

 

[jambop]

I'm surprised no one mentioned chloramines and chlorine used to stabilize tap water. Whatever else you do with the chemistry make certain that you use Campden tablets (sodium or potassium metabisulfite) to neutralize free chlorine and chloramines.

Chloramines are not used in water treatment in France at the moment my drinking water has 0.19 ppm of added chlorine according to the last analysis. I will still add a bit of meta though.

 

[Hans O. Lowe]

If it's legal to own distillation equipment where you are and you have a Grainfather already, you can get a cheap pot still set up for it from Ebay and distill your own brew water. Just a thought...

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Chloramines are not used in water treatment in France at the moment my drinking water has 0.19 ppm of added chlorine according to the last analysis. I will still add a bit of meta though.

Or simply run your water through a carbon block

 

[cire]

I used to drink in the " Athletic Arm" aka "The diggers" in Edinburgh their Heavy was served using a beer engine... unparalleled they have about 12 fonts all serving heavy it is just up the road from Tynecastle and on a Saturday when the Hearts are at home the place is heaving but never a problem getting served.
Back in the day I had two 25L beerspheres one drinking and one conditioning but gave them away when I moved to France. I am just getting back into it I did mostly extract brewing them but now I have gone over to grain and it is more demanding of technique also there is so much more stuff available now.

Everybody tells me of their drinking in Edinburgh pubs and the only time I did that was in 1963. Every other visit has been teetotal for one reason or another and today a single pint takes you over the drink-drive limit. However, in the past I have drank more than my share of beer brewed there, but sadly most of their great breweries have closed.

As you might gather from the above date, I was brought up drinking regional ales, casked in wooden barrels and served through a beer engine. I have one King Keg with a top tap, but most are the economy type from Wilko.

 

[jambop]

Everybody tells me of their drinking in Edinburgh pubs and the only time I did that was in 1963. Every other visit has been teetotal for one reason or another and today a single pint takes you over the drink-drive limit. However, in the past I have drank more than my share of beer brewed there, but sadly most of their great breweries have closed.

As you might gather from the above date, I was brought up drinking regional ales, casked in wooden barrels and served through a beer engine. I have one King Keg with a top tap, but most are the economy type from Wilko.

Scottish and Newcastle Brewers destroyed the brewing industry in Scotland in the 70's it was difficult to get a decent beer they had so many pubs. Then some free house pubs started bringing in some nice English beers Fullers, Marson's and Taylors come to mind. Then some new Scottish beers started to find their way into the market but there has been a huge resurgence of really great small breweries since then. Oddly S&N bought The Caledonian Brewery over but it still turns out some really nice beer.

 

[cire]

Scottish and Newcastle Brewers destroyed the brewing industry in Scotland in the 70's it was difficult to get a decent beer they had so many pubs. Then some free house pubs started bringing in some nice English beers Fullers, Marson's and Taylors come to mind. Then some new Scottish beers started to find their way into the market but there has been a huge resurgence of really great small breweries since then. Oddly S&N bought The Caledonian Brewery over but it still turns out some really nice beer.

A great subject to debate, but such a multifaceted subject that web discussion rarely serves good purpose, so I'll limit my comments here mostly to the better side. We'll discuss the rest when we are face to face in a decent pub with a range of decent beers. I think the demise of the once great British Brewing industry was due to financial management, as it was in other industries. I worked in industry for the first half of my working life, the second half in finance after manufacturing moved abroad. S&N was run for the investors without concern for the customer.

I loved McEwan's beers on draught in my home town. Younger's was always a better bet than drinking Courage's in London. Newcastle was all right and you could always tell how good the draught beer was in a Blue Star pub by the number drinking bottles of Newcastle Brown Ale.

The Caledonian Brewery was exceptional. Water at Duddingston must have been perfect for treating to make perfect brewing liquor. By the end of the 19th century virtually every square foot of Duddingston was taken by some brewer or another. The Caledonian was owned by Vaux before S&N had it, when Vaux continued brewing Lorimer and Clark beers. Lorimer's Scotch was a favourite of mine and a beer I've tried to replicate many times, but when Vaux moved the brewing to Sunderland, it didn't compare to the original product.

My recollections are of losing many wonderful beers from established family owned breweries, latterly replaced by kegged, filtered, pasteurised and sometimes oxidised alcoholic flavoured beverages. Now, in parallel, we have up and coming smaller breweries making great attempts to replicate what we once had, and I wish them all, good and bad, the best of luck in their ventures.

 

[jambop]

A great subject to debate, but such a multifaceted subject that web discussion rarely serves good purpose, so I'll limit my comments here mostly to the better side. We'll discuss the rest when we are face to face in a decent pub with a range of decent beers. I think the demise of the once great British Brewing industry was due to financial management, as it was in other industries. I worked in industry for the first half of my working life, the second half in finance after manufacturing moved abroad. S&N was run for the investors without concern for the customer.

I loved McEwan's beers on draught in my home town. Younger's was always a better bet than drinking Courage's in London. Newcastle was all right and you could always tell how good the draught beer was in a Blue Star pub by the number drinking bottles of Newcastle Brown Ale.

The Caledonian Brewery was exceptional. Water at Duddingston must have been perfect for treating to make perfect brewing liquor. By the end of the 19th century virtually every square foot of Duddingston was taken by some brewer or another. The Caledonian was owned by Vaux before S&N had it, when Vaux continued brewing Lorimer and Clark beers. Lorimer's Scotch was a favourite of mine and a beer I've tried to replicate many times, but when Vaux moved the brewing to Sunderland, it didn't compare to the original product.

My recollections are of losing many wonderful beers from established family owned breweries, latterly replaced by kegged, filtered, pasteurised and sometimes oxidised alcoholic flavoured beverages. Now, in parallel, we have up and coming smaller breweries making great attempts to replicate what we once had, and I wish them all, good and bad, the best of luck in their ventures.

In the mid 80's I was brewing my own beer from DME, spray dried malt, crystal malt and hops bought from a local homebrewing shop at Morningside in Edinburgh ... and it was better than most beers I could buy in local pubs ... true story I am hoping that with my new kit I can return to making a decent drinking beer with all grain. I do not go in for beer having to be crystal clear as long as it tastes good and holds a decent head I am happy but most times I did get a real nice clear brew with extracts ... maybe more of a challenge with grain...

 

[z-bob]

My water looks similar to yours, but with about twice as much bicarbonate. (I don't know how; there are not enough positive ions to balance it) Most of the local homebrewers buy reverse osmosis water to brew with. I use the local tapwater, but I add acid to it. Usually 85% phosphoric, but I have also used lactic acid, Sauermalz, and hydrochloric. In my last brew, I used citric acid and a lot of it, but that was a ginger beer and I wanted the citric taste to carry thorugh to the end. It's in the fermenter waiting to be bottled. I'm curious to see how that turns out...

A few ounces of acidified malt or Sauermalz (same thing) added to your mash would do it. Actually you might have to acidify the sparge water too, but not much.

ETA: I bought the phosphoric acid from Amazon. The brand is Dudadiesel. (sp?) It was less than $30 for a quart, free shipping, and a quart will last me for many years.

 

[cire]

In the mid 80's I was brewing my own beer from DME, spray dried malt, crystal malt and hops bought from a local homebrewing shop at Morningside in Edinburgh ... and it was better than most beers I could buy in local pubs ... true story I am hoping that with my new kit I can return to making a decent drinking beer with all grain. I do not go in for beer having to be crystal clear as long as it tastes good and holds a decent head I am happy but most times I did get a real nice clear brew with extracts ... maybe more of a challenge with grain...

Your story of producing better beer with extract in the seventies and eighties than was available in the local pubs is totally believable. That was the reason I began brewed all grain, so I fully support your aspirations.

Yes, there is more to know when brewing all grain to achieve bright beer. It can be done and once the final cause is eliminated, you won't let yourself brew a hazy beer out of pride. I use 3 vessels for that very reason, but there's more to it than that. Good water treatment is essential and choice of yeast plays an important part if you want to avoid fining the finished beer. You might care to try this for water treatment.

@z-bob , that water cannot be and what you describe is quite a significant error. Have you tried measuring the alkalinity with a Salifert KH test kit? There has to be something well out of alignment.

 

[z-bob]

@cire , I have not tested it. I stored the water profile in Brewers' Friend water calculator and I use the amount of acid it says, and the beer turns out good. After a while, I don't even calculate it anymore because I know how much works.

Just from the amount of hard water scale we get on faucets, showerheads, and anything else where a little puddle of water dries, I think the calcium is way underreported.

 

[cire]

Yes @z-bob , my water has twice the alkalinity of that of the OP, and leaves scale as you describe. It also has more than twice the hardness of the OP's water., so it does seem your water likely has more calcium. I don't use any third party water calculator, but do have a spreadsheet of my own.

Yes, once you can control your water, you can repeat the process time and time again, problem solved.

 

[z-bob]

I just got back from a homebrew club meeting. (first meeting I've been to since the start of Covid.) People were talking to a newbie about RO water systems. I mentioned that I just use the local tapwater and add phosphoric acid; sometimes with some lactic acid or Sauermalz if I'm brewing a German style because those change the taste a little. And I had some good beer with me to back that up However it was a black beer, so maybe someone could brew that here even without water treatment. (there's a local brew pub that has crappy beer and most people think it's because all they do with the water is run it thru a carbon block filter. I've had one of their stouts and it was actually good, but their light-colored beers are meh.)

 

[jambop]

Your story of producing better beer with extract in the seventies and eighties than was available in the local pubs is totally believable. That was the reason I began brewed all grain, so I fully support your aspirations.

Yes, there is more to know when brewing all grain to achieve bright beer. It can be done and once the final cause is eliminated, you won't let yourself brew a hazy beer out of pride. I use 3 vessels for that very reason, but there's more to it than that. Good water treatment is essential and choice of yeast plays an important part if you want to avoid fining the finished beer. You might care to try this for water treatment.

@z-bob , that water cannot be and what you describe is quite a significant error. Have you tried measuring the alkalinity with a Salifert KH test kit? There has to be something well out of alignment.

Hi thanks for that water treatment calculator I will look into that it looks to be a very in depth calculator. However this just in ! I have a problem with a current batch of bottled beer which I primed at the correct rate but it is completely flat 14 days after bottling into swing tops?? Never had that happen before, honest but I have tasted the beer and it is actually quite nice, even though the brew was done with no water treatment at all ! It has been cold though and I did not have my fermentation fridge up and running at the time so the bottles were just on the worktop with a duvet round them. I suspect that it has not been warm enough so have shifted the bottles into the fermentation fridge and set it at 19C and will leave it for a week and retest a bottle. I was happy enough with the flavour of the beer but it is a bit insipid because it is flat and I suspect the sweetness of the unfermented priming sugar ? I have never ever had a beer that did not carbonate before though and find it had to believe that there is no yeast in the bottles, although fermentation had totally stopped two days before I bottled. I used Lallemand Nottingham yeast and it did drop out very well. If I still worked I would have taken the yeast to the lab and cleaned it up for reuse . My water treatment chemicals arrived today so for my next brew I will be able to add the required salts and acid, which I am sure will make a difference to not only the beer but probably the fermentation. One other thing do you use Irish moss? I have some but forgot to add it and there is quite a haze to the beer although that is probably down to the fact the brewing liquor was untreated.

 

[cire]

I just got back from a homebrew club meeting. (first meeting I've been to since the start of Covid.) People were talking to a newbie about RO water systems. I mentioned that I just use the local tapwater and add phosphoric acid; sometimes with some lactic acid or Sauermalz if I'm brewing a German style because those change the taste a little. And I had some good beer with me to back that up However it was a black beer, so maybe someone could brew that here even without water treatment. (there's a local brew pub that has crappy beer and most people think it's because all they do with the water is run it thru a carbon block filter. I've had one of their stouts and it was actually good, but their light-colored beers are meh.)

When I started brewing, I understood that hard water was good for making beer, so as my water was hard I just used it. That was in 1963 when the requirement for a licence to home brew was withdrawn in UK and initially I used malt extract, but the beer wasn't brilliant. My first all grain brew was to a Guinness recipe, which was magnificent compared to those early extract attempts, but my pale beers were sad by comparison. All that was in a time when there were few books on home brewing were few and contained little advice on water treatment other than to boil "chalky water" for pale beers and add a teaspoon of gypsum to the mash and another to the boil.

Over quite a few years, all in days before the internet and when lager wasn't popular, homebrewers learned the difference between hardness and alkalinity, that indeed hardness was good, but too much in an alkaline form was detrimental. Like many others, I used lactic acid to reduced alkalinity in stages over a series of brews, but before long a twang raised its head. The gamechanger came when home brew shops stocked CRS (carbonate reducing solution) when, with an alkalinity test kit from an aquatics supplier, alkalinity could be reduced to the known desired level without impacting on hardness.

In those days we knew the importance of pH but decent strips cost as much or more than some electronic meters today and meters were not a consideration. So we brewed as commercial brewers had since before there was a pH scale by treating water first. Fast forward a couple of decades and the world was electronically a different place with an internet and brewing forums and the recognition that, in very broad terms, water treatment is different in USA to UK. Due to the differences in geologies, climates and legislations it is inevitable that there inevitably will be differences in treatments, but why there is a difference when the waters might be all but identical, I struggle to understand. RO might be commonly available in USA, but in France and UK alike, there is virtually no demand, and in any case, it takes me no longer than 2 minutes to treat my water's alkalinity and another minute to weigh the necessary salts. I'm sure that could be the case for many US brewers who currently use RO.

 

[cire]

Hi thanks for that water treatment calculator I will look into that it looks to be a very in depth calculator. However this just in ! I have a problem with a current batch of bottled beer which I primed at the correct rate but it is completely flat 14 days after bottling into swing tops?? Never had that happen before, honest but I have tasted the beer and it is actually quite nice, even though the brew was done with no water treatment at all ! It has been cold though and I did not have my fermentation fridge up and running at the time so the bottles were just on the worktop with a duvet round them. I suspect that it has not been warm enough so have shifted the bottles into the fermentation fridge and set it at 19C and will leave it for a week and retest a bottle. I was happy enough with the flavour of the beer but it is a bit insipid because it is flat and I suspect the sweetness of the unfermented priming sugar ? I have never ever had a beer that did not carbonate before though and find it had to believe that there is no yeast in the bottles, although fermentation had totally stopped two days before I bottled. I used Lallemand Nottingham yeast and it did drop out very well. If I still worked I would have taken the yeast to the lab and cleaned it up for reuse . My water treatment chemicals arrived today so for my next brew I will be able to add the required salts and acid, which I am sure will make a difference to not only the beer but probably the fermentation. One other thing do you use Irish moss? I have some but forgot to add it and there is quite a haze to the beer although that is probably down to the fact the brewing liquor was untreated.

Sorry to hear of the delayed carbonation, I'm sure there will be sufficient yeast and by raising the temperature all will be well in due time. Nottingham yeast has a lot of virtues, but is one I don't use though a packet is always at hand in case of an emergency, but it could be 20 years since that happened. How long after pitching did you bottle?

My preference is for heavy top fermenting yeasts, but that's a story for another time. Nottingham does attenuate well and quite quickly leaves very little easily fermentable sugars. Did you add any priming sugars when you bottled?

I use Protafloc or BrewBrite and find such essential to enable clear wort be transferred to the FV. However, without suitable water treatment it is possible that even after Irish moss treatment there could be haze in cool boiled wort. Much that would be deposited in the boiler by Irish Moss will drop out later, some in the FV and the rest in the bottle.

What you have described is very typical of all grain brewing at the start, certainly nothing to give you concern, just part of the journey.