Brewing water

[jambop]

So baring in mind that the analysis of brewing water is important I have tracked down an analysis of the local tap water. The major constituents are as follows
Ca 47 ppm
Cl 3.46
Mg 3.83
K 0.46
Na 3.48
SO4 8.3
HCO3 156
NO3 2.65
and pH is between 7.4 and 7.9 so quite alkaline for beer making.
When I plug my analysis into my water calculator it is suggesting a 30% dilution with distilled water. I am not going to do this as I do not have a local supplier and would require 15L every brew. I have plug the figures into my water calculator and it is suggesting no acid to the mash water and 2.5ml of 88% lactic acid to my 15L of sparge water .
Long question short if I follow the recommended water additions without the dilution will the beer be OK ? I am assuming that because I declines the dilution factor they have taken that into account with the additions?

 

[hotbeer]

Long question short if I follow the recommended water additions without the dilution will the beer be OK ?

Short answer to long question is... it depends.

How bad do you want the very bestest beer possible?

Though there might be something in your water you need to address. Especially since it said to dilute your water. Or is this an extract batch? However those that regularly deal with water chemistry and know the in's and out's will have to say if your analysis is toward the bad beer side of things.

I have only done all-grain. I just buy bottled water of a known analysis that is close enough and so far don't see the need to do additions as I've not connected any issues I have with my beer to water quality.

The recipe or type of beer might change some answers. So to will if it's an extract brew or all-grain.

 

[jdauria]

Really depends what you are making, your mineral numbers are pretty low and a good starting canvas, but the carbonate (HCO3) is high and pale beers may not come out well with that, darker beers would be ok. Water pH normally does not matter, just mash pH, but depending on what you are brewing it may be hard to get your mash pH in range. Are you planning on adding brewing salts also? Where do you live where there is no local supplier of distilled water? You can usually find distilled or Reverse Osmosis water (sometimes labeled as "purified water" in most supermarkets, Target, big box warehouses etc.

 

[jambop]

Short answer to long question is... it depends.

How bad do you want the very bestest beer possible?

Though there might be something in your water you need to address. Especially since it said to dilute your water. Or is this an extract batch? However those that regularly deal with water chemistry and know the in's and out's will have to say if your analysis is toward the bad beer side of things.

I have only done all-grain. I just buy bottled water of a known analysis that is close enough and so far don't see the need to do additions as I've not connected any issues I have with my beer to water quality.

The recipe or type of beer might change some answers. So to will if it's an extract brew or all-grain.

I have a very detailed water analysis of the local water. When I punch in the figures into Brewers friend for example it tells me that there are two areas where the water is out of spec BUT not to an extent that it is likely to detrimental to the brewing process . The Grainfather app that I am using suggests that the alkalinity is high and gives a list of additives to aid the brewing process and help achieve the target water profile of the beer type in this case London.

 

[hotbeer]

That's one of the reasons I don't use my tap water for coffee tea or beer. Both alkalinity and pH are high.

Simpler for me to just get bottled than to treat it. Maybe as I get more into beer and better at the other things then I might gain more interest in treating my water. Currently it's just more complication I don't need.

 

[jambop]

That's one of the reasons I don't use my tap water for coffee tea or beer. Both alkalinity and pH are high.

Simpler for me to just get bottled than to treat it. Maybe as I get more into beer and better at the other things then I might gain more interest in treating my water. Currently it's just more complication I don't need.

Unfortunately that is really an over simplification. To get the right character from your ingredients you need a fairly specific water profile... your bottled water could actually be less useful than my tap water in terms of the ions present in the water. The difference between pH 5.4 and 7.9 sounds huge but in terms of acidity it is not really in fact I am sure you could get away without altering the pH of the water for mashing without losing too much efficiency but if specific ions are not there in the right concentrations you could end up with a big drop in efficiency and an off tasting beer... so I am reading in the references . I am more concerned about the Ca, Mg and SO4 than the pH to be honest.

 

[marc1]

This is is the beginner's forum - are you brewing extract or all grain?

Post #6 says mashing, so you are brewing all grain?

If you provide your grist, mash and sparge volumes, water additions, and goals, we can help you more.

 

[cire]

You mention mash and sparge liquor, so will assume it's an all grain brew.

If your brew is anything but a very dark porter or stout, I'd start by finding a different way of determining water treatment. pH of your untreated brewing water is of no importance, and certainly you shouldn't contemplate mashing in liquor with 156 ppm HCO3 unless it was at the extreme of darkest beers.

 

[jambop]

You mention mash and sparge liquor, so will assume it's an all grain brew.

If your brew is anything but a very dark porter or stout, I'd start by finding a different way of determining water treatment. pH of your untreated brewing water is of no importance, and certainly you shouldn't contemplate mashing in liquor with 156 ppm HCO3 unless it was at the extreme of darkest beers.

Yes there is a problem in that department however
A There is nothing I can do about that and
B Brewers friend determine that although out of spec the brew should be doable , it is a London ESB
C I am not interested in very pale beers these are what I am trying to get away from
D the only pale beer that I will be making is Wiess bier and it is naturally cloudy

One thing I find curious is that even though I do have very slightly alkaline water none of the water calculators advise adding acid to the mash water. I can sort of understand that from the point of view that pH5 to pH 7 is a one hundred fold decrease in H ions pH 5 is an incredibly weak acid solution to start with I think the acidity of the malt must be enough to counteract that decrease ?? I am more concerned about Ca which is low and could be problematic if not corrected. I have done the calculation on Grainfather and it only advises a tiny addition of acid to the mash liquor together with mineral additions at both mashing and sparging.

 

[marc1]

Yes there is a problem in that department however
A There is nothing I can do about that and
B Brewers friend determine that although out of spec the brew should be doable , it is a London ESB
C I am not interested in very pale beers these are what I am trying to get away from
D the only pale beer that I will be making is Wiess bier and it is naturally cloudy

A There's plenty you can do about it, you can add acid to your mash.
B What does doable mean? What is your predicted mash pH?
C OK. You can make them, too, you just need to add acid to your mash.
D What does cloudiness have to do with anything? This has to do with the roast level of the grains impacting mash pH.

 

[cire]

Yes there is a problem in that department however
A There is nothing I can do about that and
B Brewers friend determine that although out of spec the brew should be doable , it is a London ESB
C I am not interested in very pale beers these are what I am trying to get away from
D the only pale beer that I will be making is Wiess bier and it is naturally cloudy

Just to confirm @marc1

A. You could add acid to reduce the alkalinity. I would suggest by about two thirds for a beer like Fuller's ESB. ESB is a style created by BJCP.
B Yes, the brew is doable, assuming the brewer is happy with a mash pH of circa 5.7 with a suitable level of extra calcium.
C A very pale beer would preferably be brewed with circa 90% less alkalinity.
D For a Weiss bier, I'd eliminate all alkalinity.

I'm British, so know the brew and would use either hydrochloric or sulfuric acid to reduce alkalinity. I understand phosphoric and lactic acids are favored in other parts of the world.

 

[jambop]

Just to confirm @marc1

A. You could add acid to reduce the alkalinity. I would suggest by about two thirds for a beer like Fuller's ESB. ESB is a style created by BJCP.
B Yes, the brew is doable, assuming the brewer is happy with a mash pH of circa 5.7 with a suitable level of extra calcium.
C A very pale beer would preferably be brewed with circa 90% less alkalinity.
D For a Weiss bier, I'd eliminate all alkalinity.

I'm British, so know the brew and would use either hydrochloric or sulfuric acid to reduce alkalinity. I understand phosphoric and lactic acids are favored in other parts of the world.

Hi Cire

Yes acid could certainly be added to the mash water to increase acidity but its is strange that the Grainfather water calculator is not suggesting this?? It is suggesting adding acid to the sparge water a small volume 2.6ml @ 88% to 12 L of water . The other additions in very small quantities are Calcium Chloride, Calcium Sulphate and Magnesium Sulphate to both mash water and sparge water.

edit
Sulphuric and Hydrochloric acids are not obtainable without a tedious form filling ceremony Phosphoric or Lactic can be sent through the post from brew suppliers... a no brainer for me I live in the sticks. Of course if I was still toiling away in research I could get all the stuff for nowt but then I would have less time to play

edit
so I have just revisited the Grainfather water calculator and I have now an acid addition to the mash water 1.8ml for 24L the only constituent out of spec is Chloride but it is only 0.3 ppm low so I think we have a doable brew

 

[Holden Caulfield]

When I plug my analysis into my water calculator it is suggesting a 30% dilution with distilled water. I am not going to do this as I do not have a local supplier and would require 15L every brew.

In case you may not know this - from a brewing perspective distilled and RO water are essentially the same except RO water from one of those water kiosks is only ~30 cents a gallon and they are quite ubiquitous.

 

[jambop]

In case you may not know this - from a brewing perspective distilled and RO water are essentially the same except RO water from one of those water kiosks is only ~30 cents a gallon and they are quite ubiquitous.

Living in France the water is wholesome enough to drink directly from the tap consequently the product is not readily available here. Why anybody would want to drink demineralised water is a mystery to me unless the water provided is suspect.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Why anybody would want to drink demineralised water is a mystery to me unless the water provided is suspect.

Living in Houston, the heart of the US petrochemical industry, our water comes out of the tap three ways - chunky, super chunky, and extra thick

Actually, I drink the tap stuff which won't kill you at least in the short run, but is very high in HCO3 and chloramines amongst other volatiles so while palatable, it will make terrible beer.

 

[jambop]

Purely as an after thought would adding a phosphate buffering agent to the water not have the effect of bringing the pH to the desired level? I only say that because I happen to have the very tabs.

 

[cire]

Put simply, forget about adding phosphate buffers to make beer, a fools paradise. If your starting point in the mash is pH maybe 5.4 at most, ending around pH 4 in your glass, why add a buffer at the start?

 

[jambop]

Living in Houston, the heart of the US petrochemical industry, our water comes out of the tap three ways - chunky, super chunky, and extra thick

Actually, I drink the tap stuff which won't kill you at least in the short run, but is very high in HCO3 and chloramines amongst other volatiles so while palatable, it will make terrible beer.

That made me laugh
Now believe it or not I too live in an oil producing area! I could take a funny photo to show you of a nodding duck oil type pump thingamybob and in the background not more than 250m away is a lovely vineyard producing very nice wine. Fortunately ye olde drinking water comes from the nearby Pyrenean mountains so it is nice and clean.

 

[jambop]

Put simply, forget about adding phosphate buffers to make beer, a fools paradise. If your starting point in the mash is pH maybe 5.4 at most, ending around pH 4 in your glass, why add a buffer at the start?

If it was all you had it would drag the water pH into the right range for mashing ? Anyway just fired off an order for the additives I needed for the correction all should be good.

 

[cire]

If it was all I had, I doubt I'd offer advice on brewing to others.

 

[jambop]

If it was all I had, I doubt I'd offer advice on brewing to others.

Is the correct answer! More to this beer malarkey than meets the eye, got all the stuff on order now. Just as a quick question do you bottle or keg and which do you find gives a better drink ? I have been using these little mini kegs and they are good ... but I also bottle. I find the mini kegs lead to over supping whereas I tend to keep track of the number of bottles I have consumed

 

[jerrylotto]

I'm surprised no one mentioned chloramines and chlorine used to stabilize tap water. Whatever else you do with the chemistry make certain that you use Campden tablets (sodium or potassium metabisulfite) to neutralize free chlorine and chloramines.

 

[cire]

Is the correct answer! More to this beer malarkey than meets the eye, got all the stuff on order now. Just as a quick question do you bottle or keg and which do you find gives a better drink ? I have been using these little mini kegs and they are good ... but I also bottle. I find the mini kegs lead to over supping whereas I tend to keep track of the number of bottles I have consumed

To be fair, a good beer will be a good beer, if treated well, whichever way it is contained. Cask conditioned and served through a beer engine is without doubt better than by any other method, although with a shorter lifespan. Bottles are convenient for a cold beer in summer and good for higher gravity beers that improve with age, but require more effort. All my beers are naturally conditioned and being retired have time, necessary space and equipment to mix and match at will, but most will find its way into plastic pressure barrels either for serving directly or be bottled after a week or so conditioning.

 

[cire]

I'm surprised no one mentioned chloramines and chlorine used to stabilize tap water. Whatever else you do with the chemistry make certain that you use Campden tablets (sodium or potassium metabisulfite) to neutralize free chlorine and chloramines.

A good point for many, but as both the OP and myself live in Europe, rather few seem know of that problem without reading North American experiences.

 

[jambop]

To be fair, a good beer will be a good beer, if treated well, whichever way it is contained. Cask conditioned and served through a beer engine is without doubt better than by any other method, although with a shorter lifespan. Bottles are convenient for a cold beer in summer and good for higher gravity beers that improve with age, but require more effort. All my beers are naturally conditioned and being retired have time, necessary space and equipment to mix and match at will, but most will find its way into plastic pressure barrels either for serving directly or be bottled after a week or so conditioning.

I used to drink in the " Athletic Arm" aka "The diggers" in Edinburgh their Heavy was served using a beer engine... unparalleled they have about 12 fonts all serving heavy it is just up the road from Tynecastle and on a Saturday when the Hearts are at home the place is heaving but never a problem getting served.
Back in the day I had two 25L beerspheres one drinking and one conditioning but gave them away when I moved to France. I am just getting back into it I did mostly extract brewing them but now I have gone over to grain and it is more demanding of technique also there is so much more stuff available now.

 

[jambop]

I'm surprised no one mentioned chloramines and chlorine used to stabilize tap water. Whatever else you do with the chemistry make certain that you use Campden tablets (sodium or potassium metabisulfite) to neutralize free chlorine and chloramines.

Chloramines are not used in water treatment in France at the moment my drinking water has 0.19 ppm of added chlorine according to the last analysis. I will still add a bit of meta though.

 

[Hans O. Lowe]

If it's legal to own distillation equipment where you are and you have a Grainfather already, you can get a cheap pot still set up for it from Ebay and distill your own brew water. Just a thought...

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Chloramines are not used in water treatment in France at the moment my drinking water has 0.19 ppm of added chlorine according to the last analysis. I will still add a bit of meta though.

Or simply run your water through a carbon block

 

[cire]

I used to drink in the " Athletic Arm" aka "The diggers" in Edinburgh their Heavy was served using a beer engine... unparalleled they have about 12 fonts all serving heavy it is just up the road from Tynecastle and on a Saturday when the Hearts are at home the place is heaving but never a problem getting served.
Back in the day I had two 25L beerspheres one drinking and one conditioning but gave them away when I moved to France. I am just getting back into it I did mostly extract brewing them but now I have gone over to grain and it is more demanding of technique also there is so much more stuff available now.

Everybody tells me of their drinking in Edinburgh pubs and the only time I did that was in 1963. Every other visit has been teetotal for one reason or another and today a single pint takes you over the drink-drive limit. However, in the past I have drank more than my share of beer brewed there, but sadly most of their great breweries have closed.

As you might gather from the above date, I was brought up drinking regional ales, casked in wooden barrels and served through a beer engine. I have one King Keg with a top tap, but most are the economy type from Wilko.

 

[jambop]

Everybody tells me of their drinking in Edinburgh pubs and the only time I did that was in 1963. Every other visit has been teetotal for one reason or another and today a single pint takes you over the drink-drive limit. However, in the past I have drank more than my share of beer brewed there, but sadly most of their great breweries have closed.

As you might gather from the above date, I was brought up drinking regional ales, casked in wooden barrels and served through a beer engine. I have one King Keg with a top tap, but most are the economy type from Wilko.

Scottish and Newcastle Brewers destroyed the brewing industry in Scotland in the 70's it was difficult to get a decent beer they had so many pubs. Then some free house pubs started bringing in some nice English beers Fullers, Marson's and Taylors come to mind. Then some new Scottish beers started to find their way into the market but there has been a huge resurgence of really great small breweries since then. Oddly S&N bought The Caledonian Brewery over but it still turns out some really nice beer.