Bru'n water sparge acid and kettle hardness calculations

[KevinP]

Say your brewing a saison and targeting for water:

Ca-52
Mg-17
Na-35
SO4-107
Cl-20
HCO3-350

With this target I it seems necessary to use some baking soda and pickling lime and still doesn't push bicarbonate to target. (grain bill is entered and using acid malt for mash ph)

Ok fine. I have those minerals.

So I don't use the baking soda and lime in the sparge water and toggle the option to "add hardness minerals to kettle" but the mash addition still shows using those minerals.

Question 1, What amount of the hardness minerals get added to the boil kettle and does the amount of soda and lime listed in mash additions still go in the mash?

Question 2, The sparge acidification page seems to take its water information from the 100% RO dilution entered on the water adjustment page without predicting a ph. Can I, without actually measuring, know what the sparge waters starting ph will be in order to calculate a lactic addition to a target sparge water ph?

Hope that made sense and any input would be welcome.

Thanks

 

[hottpeper13]

I'm not sure why someone would add baking soda and lime to a pale beer's profile when using RO water. The only time I do it is to maintain the proper pH for my darker beers.

 

[DBhomebrew]

When using RO, starting pH and target hardness are best ignored. Sparge water needs no acidification at all, it will have ~0 effect on wort pH.

 

[mac_1103]

"Hover cursor over cells with red corner marks to display helpful information"

"Bicarbonate is an alkaline buffer that limits pH reduction during mashing. It is generally undesirable in beer, but is needed to balance the acidity of dark malts and crystal malts used in some beers."

(emphasis added)

You should add bicarbonate only if needed to adjust pH, not to hit a profile target.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Say your brewing a saison and targeting for water:

HCO3-350

Where did you get this 350 target from? I agree with the comment "You should add bicarbonate only if needed to adjust pH, not to hit a profile target." That is a pretty high level, even for making a dark beer like a Stout. For a light colored beer, 350 ppm Bicarbonate would be a flaw that the brewer would have to try and work around. Since you are starting with RO, you should be able to build up a solid water profile with little or no Bicarbonate.

 

[MaxStout]

The pH for a saison should not be that low.

Check your grain bill input tab. Make sure everything is correct. Especially the grain type pulldown. Having the wrong grain type (such as "roasted" when you meant something else) for what's entered on that row can throw off the pH prediction. Check the SRM values as well.

 

[day_trippr]

Someone didn't read the first sheet...

Cheers!

 

[KevinP]

Thanks for all the replies. I realize I maybe should have included a bit more info so here goes.

The target profile is from Martin Brungard in this post
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...have-you-had-success-with.412548/post-6155166
I do understand the bicarbonate situation and its effect on driving PH up but in this case I want to use enough acid malt in the recipe to bring in a little lactic bite. As is the acid malt percentage it at 6.6% of the grist. I may back this off to a mash ph closer to 5.3 but that is as high as I want to go for this beer. So I wasn't targeting the bicarbonate level per se but just noticing that achieving all the other mineral levels didn't end up matching Martins bicarbonate number.

As far as not worrying about the ph of the RO water for sparging: A. the water wont be pure RO as it will have gypsum, calcium chloride and epsom salt added and B. Is it not generally desirable to have sparge water ph ~6 with 5.8 generally being a sweet spot? If so then both of my original questions stand.

On the first sheet it states that one can assume, with RO, that a starting ph of 7-8 can be assumed and is part of why I inquired about can the actual stating ph be more closely estimated without resorting to measurement? (my ph meter is dead and have verified Bru'n waters predictions so many times that I didn't really care about the death of my meter. Until now...lol)

So I guess a follow up question then is this:

If we ignore targeting the above bicarbonate number, can we come up with a match to the other minerals in a different way then I have shown?



Thanks again for your time on this.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but those aren't Martin's numbers for an ideal saison brewing liquor. They're the source water numbers he's commenting on from further up the thread.

 

[KevinP]

I think your right but considering that the bicarbonate level of my proposed mineral additions are probably lower than preboiling the starting profile he mentions, and a reasonable amount of acid malt takes care of the mash ph target, how would preboiling his numbers affect the rest of the mineral levels?
Using the boiled water calculator (which I've not messed with before) it looks like it drives calcium and magnesium down and raises sulfate and bicarbonate levels? I feel I am doing something wrong with this calculator...

 

[huckdavidson]

The "User Custom" water profile is not balanced. The bicarbonate should be ~165 not 350.

The amount of sparge water should most likely be ~5 gallons but not 15 gallons.

View attachment 831603

Question 1, What amount of the hardness minerals get added to the boil kettle

None

and does the amount of soda and lime listed in mash additions still go in the mash?

Yes, but a proper profile will not require soda or lime.

Question 2, The sparge acidification page seems to take its water information from the 100% RO dilution entered on the water adjustment page without predicting a ph. Can I, without actually measuring, know what the sparge waters starting ph will be in order to calculate a lactic addition to a target sparge water ph?

Water pH in a normal ~7.0 - ~8.0 range is of little concern in mash and/or sparge water adjustment.

The alkalinity of the mash and sparge water is of greater concern as it will raise the mash pH and needs to be neutralized with an acid addition.

The Sparge Acidification page takes its alkalinity input from the Water Report input page.

Entering the water above on the Water Report input page results in an alkalinity of 135 ppm @ 7.0 ph.

For 5 gallons of the above water it would take 9 tsp of 10% phosphoric to bring it to 5.2 pH with an input water pH of 7.0 and 9.1 tsp with input water pH of 8.0 - a difference of .1 tsp and 2 ppm alkalinity.

Take your time, get the volumes right, balance the input profiles and everything will fall into place. If you'd like further assistance, post your recipe and the amounts of mash and sparge water you will be using.

 

[KevinP]

The "User Custom" water profile is not balanced. The bicarbonate should be ~165 not 350.

OK. Does the target bicarbonate level really matter if the actual finished water is at 142 and mashing water profile is 158?

The amount of sparge water should most likely be ~5 gallons but not 15 gallons.

Mine is a HERMS so I just treat the entire 15gallon HLT volume even though only ~6 gallons get used for sparging in this case.

None

Why then does the water adjustment sheet have the option to "add hardness minerals to kettle" if your not supposed to add hardness minerals to the kettle?

Yes, but a proper profile will not require soda or lime.

This target profile seems to need them to drive up calcium without adding too much chloride and/or sulfate levels?

Water pH in a normal ~7.0 - ~8.0 range is of little concern in mash and/or sparge water adjustment.

The alkalinity of the mash and sparge water is of greater concern as it will raise the mash pH and needs to be neutralized with an acid addition.

The Sparge Acidification page takes its alkalinity input from the Water Report input page.

So in order to properly use the sparge acidification page the water report page must have the finished actual profile entered taken from the water adjustment page? And this is even though the water adjustments page gets set to 100% RO dilution?
If so that seems tedious.

Entering the water above on the Water Report input page results in an alkalinity of 135 ppm @ 7.0 ph.

For 5 gallons of the above water it would take 9 tsp of 10% phosphoric to bring it to 5.2 pH with an input water pH of 7.0 and 9.1 tsp with input water pH of 8.0 - a difference of .1 tsp and 2 ppm alkalinity.

Hmm. My sparge acidification page has some slightly different options but I do now get a similar small difference in lactic additions between 7 and 8 starting ph of 9.81ml and 10.39ml respectively. I do have 0.1ml measuring resolution so I will use this tool as precisely as I can. lol

Take your time, get the volumes right, balance the input profiles and everything will fall into place.

Time is something I have plenty of for this. I do greatly appreciate your input here.

If you'd like further assistance, post your recipe and the amounts of mash and sparge water you will be using.

Great Idea! Should have been in the first post...

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.01 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.51 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 3.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 23.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.20 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU Volume
6 lbs Viking Pilsner Malt (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 57.7 % 0.47 gal
2 lbs 8.0 oz Wheat - White Malt (Briess) (2.8 SRM) Grain 2 24.0 % 0.20 gal
10.5 oz Acidulated (Weyermann) (1.8 SRM) Grain 3 6.3 % 0.05 gal
8.0 oz Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) Grain 4 4.8 % 0.04 gal
12.0 oz Sugar, Table (Sucrose) [Boil] (1.0 SRM) Sugar 5 7.2 % 0.06 gal
0.40 oz Magnum [11.80 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 15.5 IBUs -
1.00 oz Saaz [2.80 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 7 5.6 IBUs -
1.00 oz Saaz [2.80 %] - Boil 7.0 min Hop 8 2.5 IBUs -
1.00 oz Saaz [2.80 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs -
1.0 pkg Belgian Saison I Ale (White Labs #WLP565) Yeast 10 - -


Mash Schedule: RIMS-HERMS Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 10 lbs 6.5 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 3.0 gal of water at 159.1 F 148.0 F 75 min
Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 10 min 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 6.15 gal water at 168.0 F

 

[huckdavidson]

If your input water is RO then you won't have any (or low) bicarbonate in the input water.

The mash alkalinity will be neutralized by the acid malt.

The sparge water will have no (or low) alkalinity as long as you're not adding any with soda or lime (and as such won't need any acid additions).

Below are the additions I would make given my understanding of your recipe and process.

Reduce your acid malt to 2 oz to get your mash pH in range. Too much acid malt is causing you to think bicarbonate is needed in the mash (it's not).

Matching Mg, Na and Ca are generally secondary to matching SO4 and Cl.

Start with the below and get the mash pH correct. When that is correct then add your kettle salts until you get the Mg, Na, Ca you desire.

Bicarbonate is not something you need (or would want) to match with this beer. In darker beers (with roast grains) you could add bicarbonate to the mash to help neutralize some of the acidity of the dark grains.

 

[quantumguy]

If your input water is RO then you won't have any (or low) bicarbonate in the input water.

The mash alkalinity will be neutralized by the acid malt.

The sparge water will have no (or low) alkalinity as long as you're not adding any with soda or lime (and as such won't need any acid additions).

Below are the additions I would make given my understanding of your recipe and process.

Matching Mg, Na and Ca are generally secondary to matching SO4 and Cl.

Start with the below and get the mash pH correct. When that is correct then add your kettle salts until you get the Mg, Na, Ca you desire.

Bicarbonate is not something you need (or would want) to match with this beer. In darker beers (with roast grains) you could add bicarbonate to the mash to help neutralize some of the acidity of the dark grains.

My Bru'n Water is the free version, doesn't support kettle salts and is broken, it won't calculate the estimated mash pH due recursive cell references.

View attachment 831649

To get rid of the recursive calculation issue, have you tried following Martin's instructions:

 

[huckdavidson]

To get rid of the recursive calculation issue, have you tried following Martin's instructions:

View attachment 831659

Thank you! I knew there was a setting somewhere that resolved those errors.

 

[VikeMan]

OK. Does the target bicarbonate level really matter if the actual finished water is at 142 and mashing water profile is 158?

There should never be a "target" bicarbonate level. Ignore it every time you see it in a target profile. If you are using tap water, only pay attention to it so far as entering it properly in the source water section. Build to a target pH and (other than bicarbonate) ion levels. If some bicarbonate comes along for the ride when building, that's fine, but it's not an end in itself.