German Pils Bo Berry Pils (West Coast Pilsner)

[Genuine]

Looks great! I'll have to put this down as a recipe to make soon for the Spring. Also - Awesome Blog, just spent the last hour reading through your brews!

 

[deadwolfbones]

Looks great! I'll have to put this down as a recipe to make soon for the Spring. Also - Awesome Blog, just spent the last hour reading through your brews!

Thanks, man! I need to post more often.

Be sure to read through the thread and see everyone else's experiences. I'm working on v3 of mine, still tweaking a lot of stuff. When I get a version I really adore I'll update the original post. For now I'd say don't use cryo hops and aim for more DH than WP hops. Maybe add a bit of noble hops in the kettle.

 

[cuda6pak]

Thanks, man! I need to post more often.

Be sure to read through the thread and see everyone else's experiences. I'm working on v3 of mine, still tweaking a lot of stuff. When I get a version I really adore I'll update the original post. For now I'd say don't use cryo hops and aim for more DH than WP hops. Maybe add a bit of noble hops in the kettle.

What don't you like about using cryo in this recipe?

 

[deadwolfbones]

There was bitterness and a sharp green pepper note to my first attempt at this beer (mentioned in the linked blog post) that I've since come to associate with beers that use a large amount of cryo hops. If you do use cryo, I'd strongly suggest using them in the DH and not the WP stage. I used them throughout the initial batch and I think that was a mistake.

 

[cuda6pak]

Good to know. I've always skewed my DH towards cryo (and now lupo) instead of the WP. This style can really accentuate bitterness depending on where you put it.

 

[cuda6pak]

Just came across this thread as I’ve been playing around with this. I didn’t go full west coast pilsner, but I took a little more delicate approach. If you’re in California, I would compare it more to Enegren Lagertha, which is a very traditional pils with Saaz as it’s core, but adds a little mosaic so you get that classic saaz flavor, but a little of that mosaic berry and citrus that surprises you. Here’s my most recent recipe:

SG 1.048
FG 1.010
5% abv
35 ibus
98% bestmalz pils
2% weyermann melanoidin
Mash @150F
.5oz mt hood 90min
.75oz mt hood 30 min
2.8oz mt hood WP 20min @ 170
2oz Idaho 7 DH @ 55F 3 day
.5oz mt hood DH @ 55F days
omega Bayern lager (Augustiner)
Started ferment @48F. After 2 days raised to 52F. Once I got past 50% attenuation I raised to 62 to finish and for D-rest.
Went more German water vs the very soft czech water profile. Ended up with around this estimate.
ca 66
Mg 4
Na 0
Cl 56
So4 100

came out very German pils like, but then the Idaho 7 stonefruit and black tea tannin comes through. It’s a subtle character but that’s what I wanted.

A little note on Timbo. I’ve known Bob for over 10 years and talked to him about his west coast pilsners. When I asked him about Timbo he said they dry hop it at the same rate as their IPAs, so it’s 3lbs or more/bbl. If you want to replicate Timbo, I would plan on probably closer to 7-8oz dry hop per 5g batch. Also, I know that Bob is a big fan of German Saphir hops, so I would guess that’s the German hop that’s in the boil

View attachment 705572

Sounds fantastic. Is that recipe for 5 or 10gal?

I also used Mt. Hood throughout the boil on my last attempt along with the Andech's strain and was happy with how it came out. That strain really seemed to keep the bitterness a little more in check than when I used 34/70, and I liked the bit of extra body it provided.

Any more secrets you can pull from Bob? I went through most of his interviews and he seems pretty consistent that Saphir/Opal hops are used only in the boil, and the big DH is all citra/mosaic, and 34/70 is the lager strain. One thing I did notice is that if you look on a cohumulone chart, Saphir and Opal are basically at the bottom. I wonder if that helps curb some of the "harsh" bitterness a lot of us can get out of this style based on the lager yeast and large DH charge?

Based on that info I'm going to try all Saphir in the boil and Nelson/Citra as the DH to change it up a little bit.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I just tried my hand on one of these. I did hallertau mittlefrau in the boil, some galaxy in the whirlpool and 1oz citra cryo in the dry hop. I was going to also do an oz of mosaic cryo in the DH but I decided to hold off since it was my first one and I didn't want to overdo it. I wish I had though and next time I'll ramp up the dry hop some. It turned out nice though. It's definitely a pilsner but with more citrusy hop character. I'm looking forward to playing around with it further. Cool idea and thanks for sharing

 

[dirty_martini]

Sounds fantastic. Is that recipe for 5 or 10gal?

I also used Mt. Hood throughout the boil on my last attempt along with the Andech's strain and was happy with how it came out. That strain really seemed to keep the bitterness a little more in check than when I used 34/70, and I liked the bit of extra body it provided.

Any more secrets you can pull from Bob? I went through most of his interviews and he seems pretty consistent that Saphir/Opal hops are used only in the boil, and the big DH is all citra/mosaic, and 34/70 is the lager strain. One thing I did notice is that if you look on a cohumulone chart, Saphir and Opal are basically at the bottom. I wonder if that helps curb some of the "harsh" bitterness a lot of us can get out of this style based on the lager yeast and large DH charge?

Based on that info I'm going to try all Saphir in the boil and Nelson/Citra as the DH to change it up a little bit.

5.5gals (makes up for loss in dry hop)

ive been trying to use American ingredients whenever possible (I plan to switch to an American craft maltster like Mecca grade or admiral one the recipe is dialed in). So I’ve tried out mt hood and Sterling hops to good effect. Like hallertau and saaz, but with softer spice and a touch more citrus. I kinda want to try out Santiam and liberty as well, while incorporating some modern American hops. I have a Japanese style rice lager, but I’m doing a cashmere dry hop to add some melon and citrus. I’m I’ve been going for subtle additions, but I think I might try to go full west coast next time.

as for Bob, all I know is he loves saphir, they dry hop the lagers like IPAs, and they dont do the extended lagering time either. Beyond that i don’t know much.

 

[cuda6pak]

Has anyone trialed lagering before adding the DH load, vs adding the DH load shortly after D-rest (or soft crash from D-rest down to ~55), then kegging and waiting for carbonation & clearing?

In one of the podcasts, Bob mentioned that Timbo was a 3.5 week beer, and because it was an intentional hoppy beer that their is no lagering after DH and it's packaged/served immediately. Which makes me think there is some sort of short lagering phase done for ~2 weeks since 34/70 should be done fermenting and D-rest in ~7 days, and gives 3-4 days for DH -> Brite -> Package.

Wondering if anyone has done both ways and noticed any objective difference between the two. I sort of agree with what @couchsending said earlier in the thread in that the subtleties of any sort of lagering character and nuance should be blown out by a 3#/bbl DH load, but was still curious and wanted to pose the question.

 

[drewmuni8]

Has anyone trialed lagering before adding the DH load, vs adding the DH load shortly after D-rest (or soft crash from D-rest down to ~55), then kegging and waiting for carbonation & clearing?

In one of the podcasts, Bob mentioned that Timbo was a 3.5 week beer, and because it was an intentional hoppy beer that their is no lagering after DH and it's packaged/served immediately. Which makes me think there is some sort of short lagering phase done for ~2 weeks since 34/70 should be done fermenting and D-rest in ~7 days, and gives 3-4 days for DH -> Brite -> Package.

Wondering if anyone has done both ways and noticed any objective difference between the two. I sort of agree with what @couchsending said earlier in the thread in that the subtleties of any sort of lagering character and nuance should be blown out by a 3#/bbl DH load, but was still curious and wanted to pose the question.

Yes! I'm going to give this a go next batch. I just made another batch to where my lager yeast character is non existent due to a good d-rest and substantial dry hop. Though as the beer has gotten better body character from lagering the hop character is starting to fall. I just invested in a dry hop keg with a screen so i can go loose, so fermenter into a dry hop keg but lay off adding the dry hop after a two week lager period would probably give you best of both worlds in terms of fresh hoppiness and lager character.

 

[drewmuni8]

Here's that last batch, a little over 3 weeks out since grain. "Pils Americana"

2:2:1 Medusa, Zappa, Sabro, about 17.5% flaked rice. Super lime-y character that is definitely dominated by Sabro, I don't get any coconut character that i always hear of. 60% hops where in the dry hop while the rest were in the whirlpool/boil. I finally got that hop character that i wanted that wasn't dominated by lager yeast, but as I said above, I'm going to lager first then dry hop to try and have the freshest hop character I can get. Ill probably do corn instead of rice next time, and some Bru-1 lupomax doesn't sound bad either

On a commercial level, I've been trying a bunch and the one that sticks out to me the most is Green Cheek's "Titan Pils". It honestly beats the HPB ones and others I've had at this point, though they are all excellent. Cheers!

 

[dirty_martini]

View attachment 715627

Here's that last batch, a little over 3 weeks out since grain. "Pils Americana"

2:2:1 Medusa, Zappa, Sabro, about 17.5% flaked rice. Super lime-y character that is definitely dominated by Sabro, I don't get any coconut character that i always hear of. 60% hops where in the dry hop while the rest were in the whirlpool/boil. I finally got that hop character that i wanted that wasn't dominated by lager yeast, but as I said above, I'm going to lager first then dry hop to try and have the freshest hop character I can get. Ill probably do corn instead of rice next time, and some Bru-1 lupomax doesn't sound bad either

On a commercial level, I've been trying a bunch and the one that sticks out to me the most is Green Cheek's "Titan Pils". It honestly beats the HPB ones and others I've had at this point, though they are all excellent. Cheers!

greencheek Pils titan is exclusively Motueka. So it’s kinda NZ pils but brewed like the dry hopped American pils. I think the GC beers are more subtle and traditional in intensity, while using newer hops. Local Import with hallertau blanc, Hüell melon, and saphir is amazing as well.

I’m carbing up a dry hopped rice lager as well. I went 30% flaked rice so it’s crazy light in color. Dry hopped with a touch of cashmere. Hoping to try some of it tomorrow. If it’s ready I’ll post it.

oh, and give your beer a month and I bet the coconut comes through. I’ve noticed that sabr is coconut really starts to shine with the citrus and tropical fruit character starts to mellow. Seems like the coconut has more staying power.

 

[cuda6pak]

A heads up for anyone wanting to use the Andech's strain we've talked about a bit in this thread (aka Wyeast Lager X) or for anyone searching in the future. Propagate lab sells the strain as MIP-620, and you can order a 1bbl pitch for $30 (1mil/ml/*P). They keep it in stock at all times and can basically ship out the same day. You can choose from overnight or 2-day shipping ($75, $35 for me respectively). So, if you brew larger 10gal batches and up, it's a great deal and time saver from building up multiple starters. This is the first time I've used the strain from them, but I pitched ~90-95% of the 1bbl pitch into 11.5gal of an NZ Pils and had fermentation activity within 4hrs @ 48*F. They've also got some interesting homebrew sized yeast strains available too on their site.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Just came across this thread as I’ve been playing around with this. I didn’t go full west coast pilsner, but I took a little more delicate approach. If you’re in California, I would compare it more to Enegren Lagertha, which is a very traditional pils with Saaz as it’s core, but adds a little mosaic so you get that classic saaz flavor, but a little of that mosaic berry and citrus that surprises you. Here’s my most recent recipe:

SG 1.048
FG 1.010
5% abv
35 ibus
98% bestmalz pils
2% weyermann melanoidin
Mash @150F
.5oz mt hood 90min
.75oz mt hood 30 min
2.8oz mt hood WP 20min @ 170
2oz Idaho 7 DH @ 55F 3 day
.5oz mt hood DH @ 55F days
omega Bayern lager (Augustiner)
Started ferment @48F. After 2 days raised to 52F. Once I got past 50% attenuation I raised to 62 to finish and for D-rest.
Went more German water vs the very soft czech water profile. Ended up with around this estimate.
ca 66
Mg 4
Na 0
Cl 56
So4 100

came out very German pils like, but then the Idaho 7 stonefruit and black tea tannin comes through. It’s a subtle character but that’s what I wanted.

A little note on Timbo. I’ve known Bob for over 10 years and talked to him about his west coast pilsners. When I asked him about Timbo he said they dry hop it at the same rate as their IPAs, so it’s 3lbs or more/bbl. If you want to replicate Timbo, I would plan on probably closer to 7-8oz dry hop per 5g batch. Also, I know that Bob is a big fan of German Saphir hops, so I would guess that’s the German hop that’s in the boil

View attachment 705572

Brewed my attempt at this one yesterday, with Saphir in the boil; Saphir, Motueka, and Mandarina Bavaria in the WP, and Motueka and Mandarina in the DH. Will report back on how it comes out.

 

[dirty_martini]

Brewed my attempt at this one yesterday, with Saphir in the boil; Saphir, Motueka, and Mandarina Bavaria in the WP, and Motueka and Mandarina in the DH. Will report back on how it comes out.

my next brew will be a full attempt at the west coast pils, but I’m going to use NZ hops. I’ll use some Sterling I have for the boil hops, but hit it with a big charge of riwaka in the whirlpool then a big dry hop of riwaka with a little Waimea

 

[deadwolfbones]

@dirty_martini Got my Lagertha-like DH lager on tap now and it's a beaut. Thanks so much for the recipe.

 

[cuda6pak]

Has anyone experimented with pre/post-boil and even post-fermentation pH adjustment? With lagers on average finishing at higher pH's, along with a 3#/bbl dry hop, I'd imagine they are ending a bit higher than some NEIPA's, and wonder if a lower 0.1-0.2ph would benefit at all. I know pre/post-boil pH adjustment for Hazy's is starting to become a topic on the homebrewing scale, with many pro's doing it.

I don't think some of the much lighter DH'd hoppy lagers probably won't see as much change from it, but with Timbo pushing at least 3#/bbl of dry hops I'd imagine there is something that could be objectively different with a small adjustment.

 

[dirty_martini]

Also something to keep in mind is the quality of the hops HPB gets. They are hand selecting these hops every year and between the quality of the hops themselves and numerous other variables it doesn’t just come down to more hops when trying to replicate this beer. Not always but a lot of the time the hops we as homebrewers have access to are night and day different than what these guys are using. Also unless you’re fermenting in a stainless conical that can hold at least some pressure it’s pretty hard to replicate commercial hoppy beer that’s for sure.

I did hear Bob say in the Full Pint podcast that Timbo is a 3.5 week beer. Which makes sense based on the info he did provide in that article. Using dry 34/70 and fermenting at 53 then raising at 50% attenuation I’m sure this beer is done fermenting in 5-6 days. The dry hop timing and lagering schedule are the biggest unknown. I’d say they probably fine Timbo a bit if it’s a 3.5 week beer with that big of a dry hop load and ends up that clear. It has been a while but I was surprised by the lack of sulphur in the finished beer considering the relatively quick turn around for a lager.

Bob was just on the Graining In podcast (from the Bissell Bros) and he said the KOed at 53. Fermented at 55 until 80% attenuation. Raised it to 65 for D Rest which is the temp they dry hopped. They said a week later they crashed and another week until conditioned and carbed.

he also mentioned it was a west coast IPA dry hop load and the water profile was similar to a west coast ipa as well

 

[Andre3000]

I had an opportunity to try the real thing in LA a few weeks ago. Definitely amazing stuff. My attempt was nothing like it.

So you could imagine my excitement when a local brewery here in Seattle released this:

Timbo
Dry-Hopped Pilsner | 5.8% | 50 IBU
This is not our beer. Yes - we brewed it, fermented it, hopped it, carbed it, packaged it, and tasted it. But all in accordance to our LA friends at Highland Park Beer - who won a GABF Gold Medal in 2019 for this exact recipe. Timbo has had a cult following from the get go - it’s intensely hoppy (mostly Mosaic, some Citra, some Hallertau Blanc, and a little Saphir), impeccably balanced, and dangerously crushable. This year, HPB is doing a Timbo week from 7/16-7/23 - and since their distro is mostly LA county, they asked a few of us to make it in our home markets. And so, here it is, in all its glory.

Honestly Cloudburst makes amazing beers and this is almost identical to the real thing. Hats off to HPB for coming up with this and Cloudburst for reproducing an amazing version of it.

Anyone else get a local version of it?

 

[dirty_martini]

I had an opportunity to try the real thing in LA a few weeks ago. Definitely amazing stuff. My attempt was nothing like it.

So you could imagine my excitement when a local brewery here in Seattle released this:

Timbo
Dry-Hopped Pilsner | 5.8% | 50 IBU
This is not our beer. Yes - we brewed it, fermented it, hopped it, carbed it, packaged it, and tasted it. But all in accordance to our LA friends at Highland Park Beer - who won a GABF Gold Medal in 2019 for this exact recipe. Timbo has had a cult following from the get go - it’s intensely hoppy (mostly Mosaic, some Citra, some Hallertau Blanc, and a little Saphir), impeccably balanced, and dangerously crushable. This year, HPB is doing a Timbo week from 7/16-7/23 - and since their distro is mostly LA county, they asked a few of us to make it in our home markets. And so, here it is, in all its glory.

View attachment 736805

Honestly Cloudburst makes amazing beers and this is almost identical to the real thing. Hats off to HPB for coming up with this and Cloudburst for reproducing an amazing version of it.

Anyone else get a local version of it?

yep. Highland park did a Timbo week last week and they gave the Timbo recipe to a couple of their buddies breweries to brew. So cellarmaker in SF, GreenCheek in OC, Cloudburst in Seattle, and Pinthouse in Austin made their versions. Me being in TX, I was lucky enough to pick some of pinthouses on Monday and they knocked it out of the park.

 

[deadwolfbones]

So sick.

 

[dirty_martini]

I’ve kegged my newest one today. It’s got a week of conditioning before carbing up and pouring. I followed a similar schedule to Timbo, but with my own choice of hops and Augustiner yeast (omega Bayern) instead of 34/70

SG 1.049
FG 1.008
IBU 36
ABV 5.4%
100% bestmalz pils
.5oz loral 11.5%AA 90min
.5oz saphir 3.5%AA 15min
.5oz loral 15min
2.8oz Waimea 16.5%AA 180F hopstand 20minutes
omega Bayern

Crash to 53. Ferment at 55 to 80%. Raised temp to 58 for one day. Raised to 65 to finish. Once passed VDK test…

3.9oz each Waimea and Wai-iti dryhop for 3 days at 65F. Lower to 50F for one day. Crashed to 34 for 2 days. Kegged today.

 

[secretlevel]

I don’t know what it is about the Augustiner strain but I have made the worst lagers with that yeast. I’ve used the Wyeast, White Labs, and Inperial versions and they’ve all produced terrible beers. That being said a ton of people use and love it and it’s probably the 2nd most popular commercial lager strain for craft breweries in the US so I don’t really know what to say. I pitch a ton of yeast, oxygenate with a stone, add yeast nutrient, pitch cold and let warm slightly, have dialed water profiles, step mash, blah blah blah. Gotta have close to 40 lager brews by now. I get lots of sulfur every time. Never had sulfur issues with any other yeast. I don’t ever warm my lager fermentation’s past 54 other than Augustiner. It definitely likes it warmer than most strains which is why a lot of craft breweries use it.

Imperial sells the Andechs strain for pros as Pilgrimage I believe.

I can’t say enough good things about it. I don’t really have a big desire to try many more. I just put some East Coast Yeast Kellbier on a stir plate but after that I probably will just go back to using the Andechs strain. Just found a Homebrew shop in CO that had three vials of Inland Islands version of it so I nabbed them.

Gave a pitch to a buddy who was headed brewer at a top 50 US craft brewery. Moved on and starting his own place. Was set on Augustiner until he tried the pitch I gave him on a small pilot batch. Was blown away with how clean and soft and balanced it was and how fast it cleared.

Follow up on this note, Imperial is making Pilgrimage (Andechs) available as a seasonal yeast to homebrewers if anyone is interested
It's available at most Imperial yeast retailers.
https://www.imperialyeast.com/organic-yeast-strains/yeast-types/seasonal/pilgrimage/

 

[secretlevel]

Another follow-up on Timbo as there's actually a homebrew competition taking place to clone Timbo for a chance to brew it at Highland Park. I'm a little late with the news so it's probably too late to submit yours, BUT Windsor Supply (who are helping with the competition) supplied Highland recipe notes to entrants.

Here they are. It's a bit surprising that there are boil hops here, granted that "SoCal Pils" recipe didn't have any...

tag and shoutout to @drewmuni8

 

[jolopez1026]

Another follow-up on Timbo as there's actually a homebrew competition taking place to clone Timbo for a chance to brew it at Highland Park. I'm a little late with the news so it's probably too late to submit yours, BUT Windsor Supply (who are helping with the competition) supplied Highland recipe notes to entrants.

Here they are. It's a bit surprising that there are boil hops here, granted that "SoCal Pils" recipe didn't have any...

View attachment 756983

I entered the windsor comp. I brewed mine about 12 days ago, currently in dry hop stage. Windsor was out of saphir at the time and i subbed with hallertau. After reading the thread and how Bob is a big fan of saphir, i have no other choice but rebrewing this.

 

[couchsending]

Follow up on this note, Imperial is making Pilgrimage (Andechs) available as a seasonal yeast to homebrewers if anyone is interested
It's available at most Imperial yeast retailers.
https://www.imperialyeast.com/organic-yeast-strains/yeast-types/seasonal/pilgrimage/

Awesome. At the brewery we use the BSI version and love it… but not necessarily for hop focused beers. It’s an amazing yeast for more malt focused styles. We brewed Helles, Tmavé, and a Franconian Kellerbier with it. Probably switch back to 34/70 from BSI for more hop focused lagers in the summer months.

 

[Andre3000]

Another follow-up on Timbo as there's actually a homebrew competition taking place to clone Timbo for a chance to brew it at Highland Park. I'm a little late with the news so it's probably too late to submit yours, BUT Windsor Supply (who are helping with the competition) supplied Highland recipe notes to entrants.

Here they are. It's a bit surprising that there are boil hops here, granted that "SoCal Pils" recipe didn't have any...

View attachment 756983

tag and shoutout to @drewmuni8

Seems like this might be missing something? They don't mention any Citra or Mosaic at all and they don't mention what hops are in the dry hop.

 

[secretlevel]

Seems like this might be missing something? They don't mention any Citra or Mosaic at all and they don't mention what hops are in the dry hop.

You're totally right, here are the dry hop amounts.

 

[Nick Poggetti]

Awesome stuff. I just loaded up this recipe for a 10 gallon batch. I don't have any mosaic, so I'll be using motueka instead. Looking forward to making it.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Another follow-up on Timbo as there's actually a homebrew competition taking place to clone Timbo for a chance to brew it at Highland Park. I'm a little late with the news so it's probably too late to submit yours, BUT Windsor Supply (who are helping with the competition) supplied Highland recipe notes to entrants.

Here they are. It's a bit surprising that there are boil hops here, granted that "SoCal Pils" recipe didn't have any...

View attachment 756983

tag and shoutout to @drewmuni8

Thanks for this, def gonna try it soon.