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German Pils Bo Berry Pils (West Coast Pilsner)

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deadwolfbones

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Recipe Type
All Grain
Yeast
Saflager W-34/70
Yeast Starter
No
Additional Yeast or Yeast Starter
No
Batch Size (Gallons)
3.5
Original Gravity
1.055
Final Gravity
1.013
Boiling Time (Minutes)
90
IBU
35ish
Color
Very Pale
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)
7 @ 55F
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)
7 @ 65F
Additional Fermentation
Lager for however long you'd like (in keg)
Tasting Notes
Clean, slightly fruity thanks to the lager yeast and Mosaic hops, bitter but not IPA bitter.


More info here: https://brew4fun.wordpress.com/2019/02/27/west-coast-mosaic-pilsner/

This is my attempt to recreate the "West Coast pilsners" pioneered by Highland Park Brewery in Los Angeles—specifically Timbo Pils. The concept is simple: 100% pilsner malt, heavily hopped with whirlpool and dry hops, typically the sort you'd usually use for an IPA. Sort of an IPL, sort of an Italian pilsner. Whatever it is, it's delicious and perfect for spring/summer.

Grain:

6 lb Pilsner

Hops:

1.5 oz. Mosaic cryo [24.1% AA] @ flame-out
1 oz. Mosaic cryo @ dry hop (3 days)

Water:

I used RO/Distilled + 2.2g Gypsum, 1g CaCl2, & 0.5 tsp. lactic acid

Process:

Brewed BIAB to produce 3.5 gallons. Mashed 45 minutes @ 154F, boiled 90 minutes. Per HPB’s instructions, I aimed for a slightly lower post-boil volume (~2.8 gal), then topped up with bottled distilled water at FO to reach my fermenter volume. Added FO hops with the distilled water, then chilled using my immersion chiller to the upper 60s, then chilled to about 58F in my keezer before pitching a packet of W-34/70 (rehydrated).

Fermentation was slow to kick off at 55F, so I subsequently pitched a second packet (dry this time). Hit FG after 6 days and did a diacetyl rest for a few days at 65F before adding the dry hops. After three days on the dry hops I cold-crashed to ~35F for a few days and then kegged via gravity into a CO2-purged keg. Carbonated via set & forget at 15 psi and 42F.
 
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McKnuckle

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So how successful were you with the hop quantities and timings? Nice flavor and/or aroma? Does the malt shine through as well? Tasting notes, please. [emoji4]

[Edit: Ok, plenty of details on your blog - cool.]

I have been planning a beer like this too, so this is well timed.
 
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deadwolfbones

deadwolfbones

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So how successful were you with the hop quantities and timings? Nice flavor and/or aroma? Does the malt shine through as well? Tasting notes, please. [emoji4]

[Edit: Ok, plenty of details on your blog - cool.]

I have been planning a beer like this too, so this is well timed.
The hop presence has (predictably) smoothed out a lot since I first tapped it: less green pepper, more fruity citrus, and generally less harsh with the bitterness (I was probably picking up some hop debris from the bottom of the keg on the first few pints).

The flavor and aroma are great now, in my estimation. Still maybe a touch too bitter for my personal taste, but it's a close thing. Next time I'd probably flip the FO/dry hop ratio.
 
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deadwolfbones

deadwolfbones

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Óops! Just missed it I guess. Thanks!
I guess it's more accurate to say that water additions are in there.

Just ran the numbers again and the expected mash pH was 5.33. Assuming the machine RO I used was really RO (not super likely), the profile was somewhere near 60 Ca, 44 Cl-, 85 SO4.
 
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deadwolfbones

deadwolfbones

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When I do it again I'll probably balance the Cl- and SO4 a little better and add a bit more of each.
 
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deadwolfbones

deadwolfbones

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Just wanted to drop a note in here that the beer I was trying to clone(ish) with this one, Highland Park Brewery's Timbo Pils, won GABF gold in the IPL category this year!

I also had the latest batch of Timbo on draft today and it blew my mind all over again. I'm definitely going to try my hand at cloning it again soon.
 

CaddyWampus

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Being on the East Coast, a nice late hopped Pilsner is not the easiest thing to find. When I tried a dry-hopped pils from Burial in Asheville, NC I fell in love immediately.

Now I have learned that this is basically a style out on the west coast. One day I might get to try a real “SoCal” Pilsner but until then I am going to be using your recipe for inspiration for my own. I’m thinking maybe a combo of Mosaic and Citra. I also have some galaxy laying around. Hmmm
 
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deadwolfbones

deadwolfbones

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Being on the East Coast, a nice late hopped Pilsner is not the easiest thing to find. When I tried a dry-hopped pils from Burial in Asheville, NC I fell in love immediately.

Now I have learned that this is basically a style out on the west coast. One day I might get to try a real “SoCal” Pilsner but until then I am going to be using your recipe for inspiration for my own. I’m thinking maybe a combo of Mosaic and Citra. I also have some galaxy laying around. Hmmm
Mosaic + Citra was the original Timbo! I think they've changed it up now and are doing a small noble hop bittering charge (Saaz, Opal, Saphir) followed by Mosaic & Nelson in the FO and DH stages.
 

secretlevel

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I just noticed the same thing reading their Untappd description:

"We took inspiration from both German Pilsners and West Coast IPAs for Timbo Pils. We used more German influenced hops in the kettle which gives the beer a softer bitterness and a nice floral and earthy hop base. We then used Mosaic and Citra for dry hopping to bring out the tropical west coast flavors of mango, riesling grapes, and passionfruit."

It doesn't help that they don't mention an IBU on here, but I can assume this is just a classic pilsner hopped with Saaz. I might give this a shot and dry hop with some Simcoe and possibly Centennial.
 

couchsending

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In the recipe Bob provided to CB&B there are no traditional hops in the kettle at all. Just new school hops in the WP and DH.

I had some Timbo this last fall. The stuff I had on tap at the brewery was one of the most mind blowing beers of 2019 for me. I couldn’t stop sticking my nose in it. I proceeded to have way too many at the brewery. The cans I grabbed weren’t quite to the level that the latest batch they had on tap was but were still phenomenal. It was hands down the best smelling mosaic/Citra beer I’ve ever had. Literally zero stank/dank/feet/sweat you usually get from those hops. It was just tropical fruit. I’ve had a lot of the best hoppy beers from most of the hyped breweries from all over the US and this still stands out as the best smelling beer I’ve had to date. Nothing is even close.

I know Bob has really good contracts for some incredible hops so there’s that but I do think there’s something to the lager yeast and cold conditioning that bring out some of the best qualities in the hops.

I’ve got one where I used all Mosaic in the WP and all Citra in the DH and it’s amazing how the aroma has become more refined he longer it lagers for. It hasn’t faded at all but has lost a lot of it’s “stanky” onion/sweaty edge.

I remember the water profile being pretty soft for the Timbo I had this last fall.
 
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deadwolfbones

deadwolfbones

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In the recipe Bob provided to CB&B there are no traditional hops in the kettle at all. Just new school hops in the WP and DH.

I had some Timbo this last fall. The stuff I had on tap at the brewery was one of the most mind blowing beers of 2019 for me. I couldn’t stop sticking my nose in it. I proceeded to have way too many at the brewery. The cans I grabbed weren’t quite to the level that the latest batch they had on tap was but were still phenomenal. It was hands down the best smelling mosaic/Citra beer I’ve ever had. Literally zero stank/dank/feet/sweat you usually get from those hops. It was just tropical fruit. I’ve had a lot of the best hoppy beers from most of the hyped breweries from all over the US and this still stands out as the best smelling beer I’ve had to date. Nothing is even close.

I know Bob has really good contracts for some incredible hops so there’s that but I do think there’s something to the lager yeast and cold conditioning that bring out some of the best qualities in the hops.

I’ve got one where I used all Mosaic in the WP and all Citra in the DH and it’s amazing how the aroma has become more refined he longer it lagers for. It hasn’t faded at all but has lost a lot of it’s “stanky” onion/sweaty edge.

I remember the water profile being pretty soft for the Timbo I had this last fall.
I re-brewed this recently with Citra/Galaxy and despite zero bittering hops it was still WAY too bitter, even after a month in the keg at keezer temps.

After two months the hop sharpness had softened and by the last pint it was really shining. Something to remember for next time, I guess!
 

secretlevel

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I re-brewed this recently with Citra/Galaxy and despite zero bittering hops it was still WAY too bitter, even after a month in the keg at keezer temps.

After two months the hop sharpness had softened and by the last pint it was really shining. Something to remember for next time, I guess!
Did you brew your original recipe or the CB&B version? What was the hop schedule that you went with?
 
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deadwolfbones

deadwolfbones

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My original recipe was the CB&B version. :)

For this one I didn't do the "reserve some cold water to quickly lower the temp after the boil" bit and just chilled to 170 and whirlpooled.

Hop schedule (5.5 gal batch) was:

70g Citra [13.4% AA, leaf] @ WP 20min, 170F
60g Galaxy [13.4% AA, pellet] @ WP 20min, 170F
100g Citra @ DH, 3 days
70g Galaxy @ DH, 3 days
 

Andre3000

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My original recipe was the CB&B version. :)

For this one I didn't do the "reserve some cold water to quickly lower the temp after the boil" bit and just chilled to 170 and whirlpooled.

Hop schedule (5.5 gal batch) was:

70g Citra [13.4% AA, leaf] @ WP 20min, 170F
60g Galaxy [13.4% AA, pellet] @ WP 20min, 170F
100g Citra @ DH, 3 days
70g Galaxy @ DH, 3 days
Dude that is a lot of hops and potent ones at that! You're at roughly 2oz/gal which is near NEIPA / Hazy IPA levels.

Did it ever mellow out? Thinking of trying something like this but I will almost certainly use less hops than this.
 
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deadwolfbones

deadwolfbones

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It did, right about the time it kicked. I think if I did this again I'd shift the balance more toward DH and less FO, and maybe knock the overall post-boil hopping down a little (like 10-15%).
 

Andre3000

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I've recently become infatuated with Pilsner off-shoots. After reading about Highland Park (anyone wanna ship some to me? I'm in Seattle 😅) I've been trying lots of Italian Pilsners that are available. There's also a local brewery that makes killer IPAs thay does a really good "bastardized" Pilsner as they call it with a heavy non-tradional dryhop which is quite good.

So I brewed this the other day.

-5.5 gal
-2:2 Citra:Mosaic WP @ 180F for 20 min. I often do this WP for my "hop tester" recipes with a slight bittering charge and they are nowhere near what I'd call "too bitter". But with the pils and lager yeast that equation probably changes.
-Imperial L17 Harvest yeast aka WY2352 aka WLP686 aka Augustiner (med-high flocc, reasonable attenuation). First time using this yeast.
-Trying to decide on a dry hop. Thinking 2:1 Citra:Mosaic in two separate DH charges which tends more towards how I'd do a NEIPA. But I'm also thinking about a single 4:2 or maybe less at 3:1.5 or so at lager temp which may also help the beer retain less haze. Typing this now I think I might do the 3:1.5 at lager tems.

Will report back. Either way, it's exciting so thanks for the inspiration OP.
 
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deadwolfbones

deadwolfbones

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I'm also in love with the Italian pils trend and brewed one a couple weeks ago, following the Tipopils template, with all Tettnang hops. It's finishing it's cold maturation in primary right now and will be kegged this weekend before lagering a couple more weeks in the keg. So far it tastes great—surprisingly hoppy given the incredibly tame two-step dry hop I ripped from Birrificio Italiano (7g and 14g, respectively, in a 4 gal batch).

Glad to hear you gave this a spin, hope it turns out well for you!
 

drewmuni8

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Went ahead and gave this a go for my first lager, coming from strictly IPA making its been a style I've grown fond of. I've had quite a few examples of the style (Highland Park, Green Cheek, Jacks Abby, Von Ebert, etc.) so i had a good idea of what the end product should be. Went with newer German varietals on hops just to keep it a "German Pils" ;).

Here's what i did for a 2.5 gallon BIAB batch aiming for a 2.75 gallon fermentor volume.

5.2 lbs - Pilsner malt / est. OG: 1.050
Mash @ 155 for 45 min w/ 10 min mash out
90 min. boil
0.75 oz Mandarina Bavaria (7 ish IBU) - 15 mins
1.25 oz Mandarina Bavaria - 20 min FO (After chilling to 190)
2 oz Hallertau Blanc DH

Water: RO + 0.8 g CaCl + 1.8 g Gypsum

I started fermentation at 55 with a single packet of WLP830 German Lager and got almost no activity for 3 days. Worried, i subsequently pitch half a packet of W34-70. At day 5 my FG was sitting at 1.040. At day 6 i ramped up to 60 and then day 7 to 65. On day ten i reached a final gravity of 1.010. Slightly lower than I thought because of the high mash temp, so my final product ended around 5.7%.

I also tried to configure adding the cold water at the end by plugging in a 75 min boil into my BIAB calculator but still ended up with not enough to really make a difference, if doing that method I'd recommend calculating a 45 or 60 min boil (but actually doing a 90 min boil) so that there is antiquate space for the cold water in your final wort.
DH Pils.jpg


Don't really know what happened with the clarity on this one, dropped half a whirlfloc at 15, and nothing really to show for it. I've done a similar process with a WCIPA while having an extra ounce of dry hop and it came out way clearer. This photo is 7 days out of sitting in the keg and looks about the same now 2 weeks out.

Overall, solid brew and will absolutely brew again. Though i will definitely use some different hop varietals with a higher AA. Not only did i not get the kind of bitterness i was looking for but i didn't get much aroma. The lager yeast definitely overpowered the hop aroma on this one. I just got some Ariana and Callista along with some South African varieties that i'll probably throw into one of these soon.

Cheers! I quite enjoy your blog there @deadwolfbones, thanks for the recipes!
 
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deadwolfbones

deadwolfbones

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Looks beautiful to me, hazy or not! You might try gelatin, or just longer aging. Mine definitely clarified a lot around 4-6 weeks in the keg, though obviously the brightest hop flavors were dropping off.

On that point, my experience with Mandarina Bavaria has been that it's pretty subtle, though I've had some powerful Hallertau Blanc experiences (wildly fruity). I'm sure there's a lot of batch variation, as there always is with hops.
 

drewmuni8

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Looks beautiful to me, hazy or not! You might try gelatin, or just longer aging. Mine definitely clarified a lot around 4-6 weeks in the keg, though obviously the brightest hop flavors were dropping off.

On that point, my experience with Mandarina Bavaria has been that it's pretty subtle, though I've had some powerful Hallertau Blanc experiences (wildly fruity). I'm sure there's a lot of batch variation, as there always is with hops.
Actually i forgot the key ingredient for beer: patience :p . Just had a pint that was significantly more clear. Also, i did look back at notes and notice that i dry hopped at the first day of 65 degree rest, which only had my gravity at 1.030. I think next time ill allow for it to get to FG before i go for the dry hops.
 

secretlevel

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Went ahead and gave this a go for my first lager, coming from strictly IPA making its been a style I've grown fond of. I've had quite a few examples of the style (Highland Park, Green Cheek, Jacks Abby, Von Ebert, etc.) so i had a good idea of what the end product should be. Went with newer German varietals on hops just to keep it a "German Pils" ;).

Here's what i did for a 2.5 gallon BIAB batch aiming for a 2.75 gallon fermentor volume.

5.2 lbs - Pilsner malt / est. OG: 1.050
Mash @ 155 for 45 min w/ 10 min mash out
90 min. boil
0.75 oz Mandarina Bavaria (7 ish IBU) - 15 mins
1.25 oz Mandarina Bavaria - 20 min FO (After chilling to 190)
2 oz Hallertau Blanc DH

Water: RO + 0.8 g CaCl + 1.8 g Gypsum

I started fermentation at 55 with a single packet of WLP830 German Lager and got almost no activity for 3 days. Worried, i subsequently pitch half a packet of W34-70. At day 5 my FG was sitting at 1.040. At day 6 i ramped up to 60 and then day 7 to 65. On day ten i reached a final gravity of 1.010. Slightly lower than I thought because of the high mash temp, so my final product ended around 5.7%.

I also tried to configure adding the cold water at the end by plugging in a 75 min boil into my BIAB calculator but still ended up with not enough to really make a difference, if doing that method I'd recommend calculating a 45 or 60 min boil (but actually doing a 90 min boil) so that there is antiquate space for the cold water in your final wort.
View attachment 688408

Don't really know what happened with the clarity on this one, dropped half a whirlfloc at 15, and nothing really to show for it. I've done a similar process with a WCIPA while having an extra ounce of dry hop and it came out way clearer. This photo is 7 days out of sitting in the keg and looks about the same now 2 weeks out.

Overall, solid brew and will absolutely brew again. Though i will definitely use some different hop varietals with a higher AA. Not only did i not get the kind of bitterness i was looking for but i didn't get much aroma. The lager yeast definitely overpowered the hop aroma on this one. I just got some Ariana and Callista along with some South African varieties that i'll probably throw into one of these soon.

Cheers! I quite enjoy your blog there @deadwolfbones, thanks for the recipes!
In addition to frutier hops, I'd recommend adding more hops in the kettle to be more in line with German Pilsner guidelines. Pilsners are different from most lagers in that they're a bit more hoppy and have slightly higher IBU's - 28 to 35 IBU on average, so don't be afraid to give this one a bit more base bitterness with something like Saaz.

Timbo Pils untappd listing actually mentions that they use German hops in kettle, before using Mosaic and Citra later.
 

Andre3000

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Did a ~30 hr dry hop at lager temps with 3:1.5 Citra:Mosaic and transferred it off into the serving keg. My curiosity got the best of me and I had a taste. Man alive. This is not a turn and burn brew like modest NEIPA. It's a polyphenol sulfur bomb that will definitely benefit from aging. Tough to tell what the final product will be like but the dry hop definitely added a lot of bitterness.
 
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