Bitter taste

[resif]

I'm gonna explain my question better using a couple of pics.

This is a batch that is still fermenting. It started 13 days ago and it's going to stop working.
You can see the lees on the bottom.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=18wPgw6pUxndjulurB7CUjjvDCC696KF8


This is a second batch. It stopped fermenting after one week (I used a different yeast) and started to clarify then I filtered it and as you can see there are some lees inside but seem to be just residual dust not solid as while it was fermenting like the first batch above of course.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=19-gKpL9MWgprv9MXtBwLoYpXGBDq8Onz


As I'm concerned about that bitter taste I got in the past, I'm wondering if I should wait the second batch to clarify completely before filtering it again to get off of that lees dust or if I should filter it now.
I will behave consequently for the first batch, of course!

Thanks!

 

[Miraculix]

If you are going to filter it anyway, does it matter? Which type of filter do you got? A propper wine filter that removes all yeast and reliably stops fermentation completely? If so, ferment till desired sweetness, cold crash and then filter.

Otherwise, it depends on what you are after. I don't really understand what protocol you were following, but in general it is best practice to leave the mead on the yeast till it is finished fermenting and to shake/stir the yeast back into solution multiple times a day to enhance contact with the liquid, while still fermenting.

With prior racking you would remove active yeast, which you do not want to do until fg has been reached. You also lose a bit of mead each time you rack so you want to limit it to the smallest number possible.

When fg has been reached, best would be to cold crash, or if not possible, to let it clear and then get it off the lees as quickly as possible as some yeasts tend to create higher alcohols (fusels), when left too long on the lees after fermentation finished.

This process had been designed to make a drinkable mead as quickly as possible, without the need of aging, if combined with a proper nutrient protocol like tosna.

 

[resif]

Thank you Miraculix,
but as I mentioned before, the process I use is just letting the yeast to work until it has finished to work, then put the mead in another container getting the lees off and waiting for it to clarify then aging or bottling.
My real problem are those lees left in the second batch because I didn't use all the filters.

I use a filter machine for wine filtering: you can add multiple filters up to 16 in my case.

 

[Miraculix]

Thank you Miraculix,
but as I mentioned before, the process I use is just letting the yeast to work until it has finished to work, then put the mead in another container getting the lees off and waiting for it to clarify then aging or bottling.
My real problem are those lees left in the second batch because I didn't use all the filters.

I use a filter machine for wine filtering: you can add multiple filters up to 16 in my case.

What was the purpose of filtering? Have you checked before if the mead was finished? Filtering usually is the very last step before packaging.

 

[resif]

What was the purpose of filtering? Have you checked before if the mead was finished? Filtering usually is the very last step before packaging.

The purpose is the topic title: "Bitter taste".
As the guys above said the bitter taste I got in the past could be produced by leaving the lees in the batch so I'm working on it and that why I asked this question.

As I said in my previous message and different times above, I filter or rack in another container just-when-the-yeast-has-finished-to-work and that means when there are no bubbles, no activity, no more bubbles again and no more activity again, so just-when-the-yeast-has-finished-to-work because I want the yeast to reach his limit.

 

[Miraculix]

The purpose is the topic title: "Bitter taste".
As the guys above said the bitter taste I got in the past could be produced by leaving the lees in the batch so I'm working on it and that why I asked this question.

As I said in my previous message and different times above, I filter or rack in another container just-when-the-yeast-has-finished-to-work and that means when there are no bubbles, no activity, no more bubbles again and no more activity again, so just-when-the-yeast-has-finished-to-work because I want the yeast to reach his limit.

You cannot see if the yeast has finished to work by watching bubbles or seeing it drop out or staring at the sky for a while.

The only reliable way is a gravity measurement a few days apart. If it stays the same, the yeast is done.

I think you have major flaws during your whole process. I would recommend to you to read the bomm thread in this forum and to follow precisely the instructions. After less than a month, you will have a nice mead and you will know why.

 

[resif]

I think you have major flaws during your whole process. I would recommend to you to read the bomm thread in this forum and to follow precisely the instructions. After less than a month, you will have a nice mead and you will know why.

Thank you for replies but I can't get the point of telling that I could have major flaws during my process.
If the yeast doesn't reach its tollerance, it means that it can eat more sugars and if I want to rack it on a different container at a spacific OG, I'll just have a mead with more sugar, not less for sure.
So that has to do with the sweetness of the mead not with the presence of the lees and the possibility that those can damage the taste.

Anyway I read the BOMM recipe and there's no mention about racking, filtering or anything so specific.
It's a good recipe with accuracy on the way to oxygenate and the use of the nutrients but it doesn't resolve my question so I try to put it in another way: do you have lees at the bottom when the mead start the clarification process? And what do you do with them in that moment of the mead making?

 

[Miraculix]

Thank you for replies but I can't get the point of telling that I could have major flaws during my process.
If the yeast doesn't reach its tollerance, it means that it can eat more sugars and if I want to rack it on a different container at a spacific OG, I'll just have a mead with more sugar, not less for sure.
So that has to do with the sweetness of the mead not with the presence of the lees and the possibility that those can damage the taste.

Anyway I read the BOMM recipe and there's no mention about racking, filtering or anything so specific.
It's a good recipe with accuracy on the way to oxygenate and the use of the nutrients but it doesn't resolve my question so I try to put it in another way: do you have lees at the bottom when the mead start the clarification process? And what do you do with them in that moment of the mead making?

The yeast eats sugar, with rising alcohol levels it eats those sugars slower and slower up to the point where alcohol levels are so high that the yeast stops eating more sugars.
Before this point is reached, the yeast gets slower and slower. The slower it gets, the less co2 per time is produced. The yeast produces so much co 2 at the beginning of fermentation that it agitates the whole solution, everything is swirling around, including the yeast.
With co2 production slowing down, the yeast does not get agitated that much any more and starts to settle down, even if there is still plenty of sugar left and the alcohol level is not high enough to stop the yeast from eating sugar.
That's why it is recommended to agitate the yeast, to keep it working.

If your gravity readings at one point confirm that final gravity has been reached, the mead is left alone or cold crashed till the yeast dropped out and then either bottled or racked into a second vessel for bulk aging.

Racking before final gravity has been reached does not determine the final sweetness of the mead, it just removes active yeast and puts the remaining yeast under higher pressure.

Under such a small timeframe, lees do not damage the taste. There are two ways lees can damage the taste, both involve leaving the mead too long on it AFTER FG HAS BEEN REACHED.
the lees can produce higher alcohols, which make the mead taste hot. Some yeasts tend to do this more than others.

If left way too long, yeast can autolyse, which would leave specific flavours, but I never heard that bitter would be one of them (but doesn't mean that it cannot be). Autolysis usually takes pressure and long time so I doubt that this is what's happening here.

I had some type of honey which got bitter when fermented dry, before the sugar was covering it up. Mainly varieties containing lots of clover honey gave me the bitter taste after being dried out. Backsweetening resolved this issue. Was your bitter mead dry or sweet?

 

[resif]

Thank you Miraculix for your explanation: I know about how the yeast works but anyway it helped me a lot.
I have different bottles: both dry and sweet meads have that taste.
Now I'm trying different yeasts because after your statement

Under such a small timeframe, lees do not damage the taste. There are two ways lees can damage the taste, both involve leaving the mead too long on it AFTER FG HAS BEEN REACHED.
the lees can produce higher alcohols, which make the mead taste hot. Some yeasts tend to do this more than others.

If left way too long, yeast can autolyse, which would leave specific flavours, but I never heard that bitter would be one of them (but doesn't mean that it cannot be). Autolysis usually takes pressure and long time so I doubt that this is what's happening here.

I'm starting to think that it could be the type of yeast.

 

[Miraculix]

Thank you Miraculix for your explanation: I know about how the yeast works but anyway it helped me a lot.
I have different bottles: both dry and sweet meads have that taste.
Now I'm trying different yeasts because after your statement



I'm starting to think that it could be the type of yeast.

I recently read about a specific yeast strain that caused bitterness, but it was a kveik, I'll doubt you got that one. Ql which one do you use? Have you reused the yeast? Try a new yeast with an improved protocol, like tosna or the bomm protocol.

Maybe your yaest is really the issue or maybe you got an ongoing infection that causes it, always hard to nail down exactly.