BAD honey for mead is real. Or is it?

[giuzep89]

Hello dear friends,
just wanted to share with you my last two "failures" in meadmaking and brewing with honey. I'm not beating myself up too much about it, it's how the game works, and there's always something to learn from it. In particular, I'd like to be able to learn from this as much as possible.

Here's the point I'd like to stress (but which you're welcome to challenge): there ARE, contrary to most of the info I've scavenged from the net, types of honey that just don't ferment into anything pleasant, no matter how high-quality and unprocessed they are.
I used local, unfiltered, unprocessed honey with summer and fall harvests mixed together, handed to me by the beekeper himself.

The fermented beverages made with it were:
- Traditional mead: OG 1.110, staggered nutrient schedule, Lallemand 71b, regular degassing, etc.
- Belgian Tripel Ale, OG 1.080 FG, no nutrients, Mangrove Jack's M31, Saaz hops. Honey (some 10% of the fermentables) added half-way through primary.

Without delving extensively into details, I wanna stress the most important fact: BOTH these beverages, even after several months of ageing, had a really nasty bitter, unpleasant off-note and a strange smell to them (not sour or bacterial, just "not nice"), which I can only ascribe to the honey. I made many versions of that belgian ale and they all turned out fine. And I made mead with different honey, which also turned out fine. Only this one, alongside the mead sharing the same honey, had that bitter aftertaste. I wanna also add that I'm quite scrupulous with sanitization so I'm quite sure I didn't screw that up.

So, basically, no matter the different yeast, different fermentation, quantity of fermentables, sweetness level (no change even adding sugar to the mead) and alcohol content, this honey just doesn't seem to taste good when fermented. Has any of you had a similar experience? I couldn't believe it would be because of the honey, given its high quality, but I'm thinking it might be that mixing summer and fall harvests creates exceedingly concentrated honey. I might have read something about this somewhere, especially about fall harvest honey not being good for mead. Thoughts?

 

[madscientist451]

What nutrients were used, what batch size, how much yeast?

 

[giuzep89]

- Nutrients (mead only): Wyeast for beer
- Batch size mead: 10 liters, with 5g Lallemand 71b, basically the whole packet
- Batch size beer: 4 liters, no nutrients, 3g Mangrove Jack's M31

 

[T Murph]

January of this year I made 3 melomels using Gallberry honey from the coast in the Florida panhandle. The honey had a bit of a bitter bite on the finish when tasted. I made melomels with it anyway. The results were 3 meads that my wife labeled NFT, (not effing tasty). Having made many meads over the years I knew with bulk aging it would improve over time. I did kill off the yeast after 5 months and back sweetened with orange blossom honey. Each month it has mellowed more and more. It is now 11 months old and it is doing what I expected. One has blackberries for fruit flavor. Initially it was the most tart but now it is the better tasting of the three.

When dealing with meads you can most always expect significant changes over time. I suggest you place yours in a relatively cool location and give it time to mature. Same goes for your Belgian Triple.

 

[giuzep89]

I have most of the bottles still in storage. I guess I'll try that as well! 12% is probably alcoholic enough to be harsh in the beginning I assume.

 

[giuzep89]

January of this year I made 3 melomels using Gallberry honey from the coast in the Florida panhandle. The honey had a bit of a bitter bite on the finish when tasted. I made melomels with it anyway. The results were 3 meads that my wife labeled NFT, (not effing tasty). Having made many meads over the years I knew with bulk aging it would improve over time. I did kill off the yeast after 5 months and back sweetened with orange blossom honey. Each month it has mellowed more and more. It is now 11 months old and it is doing what I expected. One has blackberries for fruit flavor. Initially it was the most tart but now it is the better tasting of the three.

When dealing with meads you can most always expect significant changes over time. I suggest you place yours in a relatively cool location and give it time to mature. Same goes for your Belgian Triple.

My only question is, was it a particular type of honey that did that, or is this something that happens to you regularly?

 

[T Murph]

My only question is, was it a particular type of honey that did that, or is this something that happens to you regularly?

It very well could be the honey. Honey reflects the sugars from which it is made. Each has its own taste profile. See my post in what I did today, I'm dealing with a crazy one that has turned out good enough that I may enter in a comp.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I bought a bunch of cheap honey from Menard's, it made terrible mead.

 

[CKuhns]

I do believe good tasting and quality homey, water, nutrients and time to age are the basis for consitent really good mead.

I have had a few that a couple months after bottling were still nothing but awful. I realized it typically was caused from my poor practices and health of the yeast during ferment that made for poor quality. But, often with enough time were god not great and worthy to drink. ( I have one that is now 4 years in the bottle and finally good enough to drink. Another i started to blend boff by topping up similar meads in secondary that after 2 years i am sorry i did as it is now very pleasant.)

Even honey that is "suspect" can turn out some good mead. If fermented well, paired with fruit, spices or oak. Think about the difference between a Stout and Lager. You can hide an awful lot of suspect ingredientsband flavors in a Stout but you better get everythibg just right in a lager.

 

[dmtaylor]

Some honey ain't great, and yet people will still tell you it's great. Like some buckwheat honey meads give a cow manure flavor, which apparently some people love. I don't.

 

[giuzep89]

I tried sweetening one with some maple syrup (I'd have used honey but none lying around right now) and I'm noticing it's quite a lot better. Still a little too aggressive though. I have the feeling that this honey, however of great quality, is far too concentrated for my own taste. It's wildflower but quite dark in color. I tried the same beekeeper's summer honey alone and it was just wonderful, much lighter and more floral than this blend. I have the feeling I'd like that one better, but who knows!

 

[T Murph]

I tried sweetening one with some maple syrup (I'd have used honey but none lying around right now) and I'm noticing it's quite a lot better. Still a little too aggressive though. I have the feeling that this honey, however of great quality, is far too concentrated for my own taste. It's wildflower but quite dark in color. I tried the same beekeeper's summer honey alone and it was just wonderful, much lighter and more floral than this blend. I have the feeling I'd like that one better, but who knows!

What is your current gravity? And be careful adding sugars at this point. Meads are fixable. You need to be patient and guide it in the direction you want it to go. It may be too green at this point. How long has it been fermenting? You can adjust sweetness and add flavors, but you have to control fermentation. Also did you feed it nutrient during fermentation?

 

[giuzep89]

What is your current gravity? And be careful adding sugars at this point. Meads are fixable. You need to be patient and guide it in the direction you want it to go. It may be too green at this point. How long has it been fermenting? You can adjust sweetness and add flavors, but you have to control fermentation. Also did you feed it nutrient during fermentation?

Oh my apologies for the vagueness: I meant in a glass, to taste it, not in the carboy. I'm quite sure it finished at 1.000/1.002. After that I sweetened it with erythritol, so I didn't think it was any use taking a gravity reading at that point.

 

[giuzep89]

Oh and it's 7 months old, and I used a staggered nutrient schedule during primary.

 

[T Murph]

OK I reread your OP. Let your Belgian mature out. I think it will be alright. I would kill off the yeast now in your mead to prevent fermentation from starting up again. After about 48 hours dilute honey in equal amounts as water and add it in. One cup honey to 5 gal mead. Give it a good swirl and check back on it in a month or so. Once you are certain no additional fermentation is taking place you can make adjustments to sweetness or add fruit flavors etc. Then it's just a waiting game.

 

[Yooper]

Some wildflower honeys are very strong, and make terrible tasting mead in my opinion. Buckwheat honey, too- yuck!

 

[giuzep89]

Some wildflower honeys are very strong, and make terrible tasting mead in my opinion. Buckwheat honey, too- yuck!

And this one is SO strong... We're onto something here

 

[Maylar]

I bought honey from a local beekeeper a year ago, and he had 2 very different honeys from the same hives. The late harvest stuff was very dark and strong, early harvest was normal golden color. Maybe it's a good thing I chose the early harvest?

 

[giuzep89]

I bought honey from a local beekeeper a year ago, and he had 2 very different honeys from the same hives. The late harvest stuff was very dark and strong, early harvest was normal golden color. Maybe it's a good thing I chose the early harvest?

I tried the summer harvest alone from the beekeeper i mentioned earlier, and it was a whole different story. It was lighter and fruitier. So yes, I think you did well!

 

[Dland]

Along the lines of OP's original question;

I have a 5 gallon bucket of very dark old honey I bought cheap years ago, it is fairly strong tasting, but not completely unpalatable.. I think it was from a company that had commercial pollinator hives. Is this worth using in first mead attempt?

 

[giuzep89]

Along the lines of OP's original question;

I have a 5 gallon bucket of very dark old honey I bought cheap years ago, it is fairly strong tasting, but not completely unpalatable.. I think it was from a company that had commercial pollinator hives. Is this worth using in first mead attempt?

In terms of "functionality", it will most likely behave as it should... Maybe don't do as I did and make it reasonably low ABV, otherwise you'd have to wait for forever to know whether it's gonna taste good in the end!

 

[T Murph]

Along the lines of OP's original question;

I have a 5 gallon bucket of very dark old honey I bought cheap years ago, it is fairly strong tasting, but not completely unpalatable.. I think it was from a company that had commercial pollinator hives. Is this worth using in first mead attempt?

That honey will indeed make mead. However if you haven't made meads before it may prove to be too much work and problematic. Old honey typically has a fairly harsh finish. With the right amount of work and patients you can make a very drinkable product. It will take time to mellow out. You will most definitely have to adjust sweetness and add fruit or spices to make it more enjoyable. I've used 10 yr old honey this year. It's 11 months old now and finally it is drinkable. It is still maturing and will improve with more time bulk aging in a keg.

 

[bwible]

Some wildflower honeys are very strong, and make terrible tasting mead in my opinion. Buckwheat honey, too- yuck!

Exactly. Honey is variable by what the bees get into or what is available to them.

You know how people sometimes add sugar or corn sugar to a big beer to thin it out, dry it out some, etc? I’ve wondered about trying this with a mead.

 

[T Murph]

@bwible back sweetening with honey is common practice with mead making. Mead is a forgiving animal, you can adjust sweetness and add flavors to obtain the outcome you are going for.

 

[Dland]

I have no problem waiting for finished product. I mainly drink beer, which I have gong in a "pipeline" with many kegs. The mead would be an experiment, kind of for fun, though it would be great if it amounted to something good someday. The beer gets made in conical fermentors, but I still have a bunch of heavy glass carboys from early brewing days. It would be more amusing to me if they were sitting in cellar full than empty.

I originally bought this honey over 25 years ago to fortify bulk apple cider, of which I used to put up a couple 50 gallon whisky barrels a year. I'd add champagne yeast and bring the ABV up to wine level, used to use more honey to prime & re bottle this in champagne bottles, some aged for years. I no longer live in apple growing area, so that practice ended.

The honey has darkened with age, but I still like the taste, though it is admittedly different from any one would find in store. My family thinks it is weird, but they are kind of normal.

For flavor, I guess I might head for spicy & kind of on dry side, probably wine level ABV. I have a selection of many of the normal fermetis dry beer yeasts one of their cider yeasts. I was thinking maybe use some B-256 I have that is not too old, it is pretty alcohol tolerant and the beer it makes is supposed to be aged too. Am open to suggestions.

 

[T Murph]

Lol @Dland , I'm way more into drinking beer than mead yet I am fascinated with mead making. I think part of my fascination is the vast array of possibilities mead offers the mead maker. If you have not tried D47 champagne yeast with your mead making, I suggest giving it a try. More specifically semi dry and sparkling melomels.

 

[bwible]

How about oak aging? I’ve read about oak aging mead in several places and everybody says oak aged mead is supposed to be one of the best. Oak aging or oak chips soaked in whiskey aging? 15 gallons to fill a bourbon barrel would be a lot of mead.

I guess like beer oak or oak and bourbon aging probably isn’t going to cover up a bad base beverage but maybe that could change it enough to make it a bit better?

 

[Dland]

Lol @Dland , I'm way more into drinking beer than mead yet I am fascinated with mead making. I think part of my fascination is the vast array of possibilities mead offers the mead maker. If you have not tried D47 champagne yeast with your mead making, I suggest giving it a try. More specifically semi dry and sparkling melomels.

Never made mead before, might try making some today, been looking at different recipes here. Normally, Sunday is brew day, but have some slow cold lagers in beer fermetors. Will have to use some yeast I have on hand, guess I'll go for the one with highest alcohol tolerance..

Looks easier than my beer brew days, and this honey will not likely be used for anything else, bar some sort of total societal break down, and in that case, the mead will probably get consumed also, no batter how mad it is. :]

 

[T Murph]

It's almost too easy compared to beer especially all grain. It takes very little time and effort in all regards to brewing. Mix honey and water, bring it to pasteurization temp let it cool and pitch yeast. And it becomes mead. But that's where you can experiment adding flavors, dry, sweet, still or sparkling. It is fun and offers challenges along the way. Mead will never surpass beer in my book but it too is enjoyable. Just don't forget to respect the mead when consuming it. It also gives some bad hangovers and headaches if you over indulge.

 

[Dland]

I guess I'll start my own thread on this experiment, apologies to OP. But here is the questionable honey I'm using today. Seems I had a memory lapse, and this is not the stuff I bought 27 years ago in VT. It is practically new! 2006, got it from a food co-op for reasons I can't remember now.

It smells very strong, but not bad, taste is same. Made in Brazil, who knows what kind of flowers or even bees involved.

 

[Dland]

double post

 

[T Murph]

It will make mead. I currently have 3 melomels aging that were made with 10 yr old Gall Berry honey. It was not palatable when fresh so I reluctantly kept it and finally made mead with it. It's now 11 month old melomel that is getting better every month,. I had to kill off the yeast and back sweeten it with Orange Blossom honey and carbonate them, but now they are quite tasty semi dry sparkling melomels. Oh and my bucket looked a lot like yours there. Lol.

 

[bottlebarn]

Actually honey doesn't go bad, it's the only food that there is no expiration date.

 

[Dan O]

Actually honey doesn't go bad, it's the only food that there is no expiration date.

As long as it is stored properly. Honey left open or exposed to humidity & excessive heat will not last forever, contrary to popular belief.

 

[Miraculix]

How about oak aging? I’ve read about oak aging mead in several places and everybody says oak aged mead is supposed to be one of the best. Oak aging or oak chips soaked in whiskey aging? 15 gallons to fill a bourbon barrel would be a lot of mead.

I guess like beer oak or oak and bourbon aging probably isn’t going to cover up a bad base beverage but maybe that could change it enough to make it a bit better?

Did multiple Times, multiple lengths, HATED oak every single time. It's not for mead imo. But personal taste differs.

 

[Miraculix]

Actually honey doesn't go bad, it's the only food that there is no expiration date.

That is an urban legend. Some honeys have more water content than others, as soon as the water content reaches a certain percentage, yeast and other organisms can start metabolizing the sugars. Crystallization also ups the water content in the liquid phase, as it takes sugar out of solution, so there is plenty of room for honey to "go bad". Or to "go mead" .

 

[scry42]

Brazilian honey is interesting. Organic, because many areas are essentially terrible farmland so nobody farms, so no chemicals get used. I have had great results making mead with Marmeleiro honey from Brazil, with a wildflower sometimes called Silvestre, and with what I was told was a brown gum tree - Angico. On the other hand, unique to Brazil is a "honey" that is only available in even numbered years (? how do the bees know that?) that is made when the bees collect what we in the US would call "honey dew" - secretions from insects (that apparently the bees love). It is known as Melato, it is very dark and it is so completely strong (read:horrible) tasting that it makes buckwheat seem like dandelion. I made 3 batches of mead with it, and have not liked a one of them. In hopes of it aging into something drinkable, it's still taking up shelf space, but even after trying to backsweeten, adding acid, and trying several other things I won't embarass myself by admitting to - it is still just AWFUL!

 

[T Murph]

@scry42 when did you make this mead? This time last year I made 3 melomels with horrible Gall Berry honey. They have steadily improved over a year of aging. I did back sweetened them at about 5 months old. They are now very good dry sparkling melomes. I wouldn't give up on them. Let them age and make adjustments as necessary.

 

[eliedenshaw420]

I have a question for mead tastes, I just started a mead with dandelion, blackberry and clover honey, and anise extract. What should I add to it to mellow the flavor or just make it better, because I mostly taste the licorice note and some sweet aftertaste with a little yeasty taste

 

[Dan O]

I have a question for mead tastes, I just started a mead with dandelion, blackberry and clover honey, and anise extract. What should I add to it to mellow the flavor or just make it better, because I mostly taste the licorice note and some sweet aftertaste with a little yeasty taste

Your licorice note is from the star anise extract. Your mead will change over time. Some spices & herbs linger, but, others fade with time. Your honey will likely make a comeback in a few months & flavors will blend.
I would say maybe make a traditional (honey, water & yeast, with nutrients, of course) & try blending them . You can always add more flavor, but, once you've added too much you're stuck with what you have made until you change it or wait it out.
I hope this helps you.
Happy meading