Anyone stop BIAB and return to more traditional Mash and Sparge techniques?

[robcj]

Temp control and recirc go together because heat losses caused by recirc require some form of makeup heat. That is why recirculation schemes incorporating such things as RIMS and HERMS are so common.

Very true. I sometimes recirculate if I overshoot my strike temperature. If you want to turn down the temperature, just turn on the pump.

Traditional BIAB already suffers from poor temperature control and I don't think there is great value in recirculating during BIAB unless you go RIMS, which is what I did.

I have a 20 gallon kettle with two return ports (one for mash recirculation and one for chilling) and a portable platform with pump, RIMS tube and chiller. I use propane to get close to my mash temperature then let the RIMS and controller take over. It's just 110V but that's enough to maintain mash temperatures for both 5 and 10 gallon batches. I like mashing for longer--90 minutes if I want great attenuation or even longer sometimes if I have other things to do. RIMS let's me do that.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1501654087.905010.jpg
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1501654113.613623.jpg

 

[TexasWine]

I switched from single-vessel to two-vessel for two primary reasons. One, two-vessel allows me to pre boil the water and underlet my mash. Two, I wanted crystal clear wort going into the boil and I was never going to accomplish that using a bag.

Both of these are key to my process, and my beers have seen a significant upgrade combining these two changes with some other small tweaks.

 

[applescrap]

@r8rphan responded on other thread

 

[doug293cz]

@r8rphan responded on other thread

Link?

Brew on

 

[rhys333]

Link?

Brew on

I think this is it:
youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

 

[r8rphan]

I think this is it:
youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

I think complete sentences are a better way to communicate.. call me crazy..

 

[r8rphan]

Very true. I sometimes recirculate if I overshoot my strike temperature. If you want to turn down the temperature, just turn on the pump.

Traditional BIAB already suffers from poor temperature control and I don't think there is great value in recirculating during BIAB unless you go RIMS, which is what I did.

I have a 20 gallon kettle with two return ports (one for mash recirculation and one for chilling) and a portable platform with pump, RIMS tube and chiller. I use propane to get close to my mash temperature then let the RIMS and controller take over. It's just 110V but that's enough to maintain mash temperatures for both 5 and 10 gallon batches. I like mashing for longer--90 minutes if I want great attenuation or even longer sometimes if I have other things to do. RIMS let's me do that.

View attachment 409469
View attachment 409470

As far as heat control goes, what's the difference between recirculation with a RIMS and using the heating element in the kettle?

Seems like the same concept to me, only using the kettle itself as the RIMS tube, but maybe there's something I'm not considering..

 

[r8rphan]

@r8rphan responded on other thread

what other thread?

 

[r8rphan]

never mind.. I know what thread you're talking about now..

 

[applescrap]

This Thread is got me thinking again about cooler biab. And or even a cooler with a sparge. Look I need a jacket to cover the mash even though i know it's unnecessary. I need a colander to squeeze the bag and a bucket to squeeze it into. And a lid to squeeze the bag. The people who use coolers have reported being very happy with them. They hold temp well, they clean easy, and you just dump the grains out of it. I don't know if I would just use a cooler with false bottom and batch sparge or use a bag and full volume and squeeze or batch sparge and squeeze. It's my understanding that batch sparge does a pretty good job on its own. The only problem for some is lifting the cooler or using gravity but that's not a problem to me.

I started a thread on the discussion of biab and coolers and the joy of true biab needs some way to drain and squeeze the bag without a lot of extra equipment. With all the extra equipment a cooler starting to sound nice. Plus a batch sparge and squeeze gives pretty good efficiency. Also at the speed I am Brewing I think I will be able to speed up and get even closer to two hours. The initial volume will heat very quickly and I can heat the batch water while it mashes.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

My workaround is a Papazian Zapap...one bucket w/ a bunch of holes drilled set in a bottling bucket w/ spigot. I lift with a pulley, let it drain into the kettle, swing it to the bucket, and can either put gloves on and push on it or use another bucket to push on the grain bag. Drain out of the spigot into the kettle.

 

[robcj]

As far as heat control goes, what's the difference between recirculation with a RIMS and using the heating element in the kettle?

Seems like the same concept to me, only using the kettle itself as the RIMS tube, but maybe there's something I'm not considering..

You're right--it's the same concept. I should have clarified: I don't think there is good value in recirculating a BIAB mash without a heat source that can be controlled with reasonable precision.

I personally chose RIMS rather than eBIAB with an element in the kettle because I wanted an external solution that I could use with other vessels.

 

[ba-brewer]

I switched from single-vessel to two-vessel for two primary reasons. One, two-vessel allows me to pre boil the water and underlet my mash. Two, I wanted crystal clear wort going into the boil and I was never going to accomplish that using a bag.

Both of these are key to my process, and my beers have seen a significant upgrade combining these two changes with some other small tweaks.

Is your 2 vessel system a brutus type system or something else, still electric?

 

[TexasWine]

Is your 2 vessel system a brutus type system or something else, still electric?

Nope, just a plain Jane two vessel. Heat and pre boil in the boil kettle, underlet the mash, recirculate the mash, transfer back to the boil kettle when the mash is done.

All electric, using a Brau Supply controller.

 

[thunderwagn]

I'm moving from BIAB to a cooler mash tun. I have zero issues with the BIAB method and have produced great brews using it. I have no efficiency issues. I've done it enough, my process and numbers are all spot on. My reasons may be petty to some, but worth a switch to me, and I guess I'm the one that counts.
I want a separation from mash tun/kettle.
I'm tired of lifting and or hoisting a grain bag full of steamy hot liquid.
I want to brew some beers with larger grain bills (and larger batch sizes)...again, more weight and steam hot liquid.
And just kinda ready for a change.

 

[ba-brewer]

Nope, just a plain Jane two vessel. Heat and pre boil in the boil kettle, underlet the mash, recirculate the mash, transfer back to the boil kettle when the mash is done.

All electric, using a Brau Supply controller.

So a full volume mash, are you doing anything for temp control during the mash?

thanks for the information.

 

[TexasWine]

So a full volume mash, are you doing anything for temp control during the mash?

thanks for the information.

Yes, full volume, no sparge mash. And yes, the Brau Supply controller keeps the temp steady whilst recirculating.

Just an FYI, another option with the two vessel approach is to mash k-rims style, circulating through both vessels. Haven't done it yet, but I'm looking for easy ways to increase batch size without a sparge, and this would do the trick.

 

[jan_b19]

Try keeping a little bit of water to the side and batch sparge the bag after mashing. I had some efficiency issues before as well, but just batch sparging for a couple of minutes enabled me to stay within 0.02 points of my target every time.

 

[r8rphan]

My workaround is a Papazian Zapap...one bucket w/ a bunch of holes drilled set in a bottling bucket w/ spigot. I lift with a pulley, let it drain into the kettle, swing it to the bucket, and can either put gloves on and push on it or use another bucket to push on the grain bag. Drain out of the spigot into the kettle.

I'm gonna have to look into this... Might be just the solution I need for squeezing the bag.. Definitely simpler than what I was planning....

 

[schematix]

I just switched to 2-vessel full volume mash with RIMS from traditional 3-v w/ RIMS. Same as TexasWine described except with different controls. Much simpler to manage...

 

[r8rphan]

Yes, full volume, no sparge mash. And yes, the Brau Supply controller keeps the temp steady whilst recirculating.

Just an FYI, another option with the two vessel approach is to mash k-rims style, circulating through both vessels. Haven't done it yet, but I'm looking for easy ways to increase batch size without a sparge, and this would do the trick.

so the heating element would be in the BK, and none in the mash kettle? Then you calculate how much water is needed for make up post mash, and have that in the BK, recirculating through both?

How do you control liquid levels? Seems like if you filled the mash vessel enough for the mash, then it would be reasonably full, but the level in the BK would be much lower, and you'd have to maintain that imbalance to maintain mash viscosity... But recirculating through both would cause both to seek equalization?

Or do you just fill both up and boil forever to get the volume back down?

Sounds like a neat idea, one that had crossed my mind, but I don't see how the levels would work.... Or do you 'tier' the vessels so that the BK's lower level is even with the higher level of the mash vessel and let physics do the rest?

 

[schematix]

so the heating element would be in the BK, and none in the mash kettle? Then you calculate how much water is needed for make up post mash, and have that in the BK, recirculating through both?

How do you control liquid levels? Seems like if you filled the mash vessel enough for the mash, then it would be reasonably full, but the level in the BK would be much lower, and you'd have to maintain that imbalance to maintain mash viscosity... But recirculating through both would cause both to seek equalization?

Or do you just fill both up and boil forever to get the volume back down?

Sounds like a neat idea, one that had crossed my mind, but I don't see how the levels would work.... Or do you 'tier' the vessels so that the BK's lower level is even with the higher level of the mash vessel and let physics do the rest?

Regular element in BK. RIMS element for mash.

Water to heat = desired post boil volume + boil-off + mash tun dead space + grain adsorbtion + BK dead space (a.k.a how much wort you want plus the losses you incur)

Here's an example of the calculations i do:


So you heat say 16G in the BK, then PUMP it over to the MLT, mash, then transfer about 13G back. The exact numbers will vary based on the grain and equipment, but that's the rough idea. There are a number of tools out there for calculating all of this. It's actually much simpler than 3-v brewing as well and makes predicting actual gravities and volumes much more of a science.

As you can see you do need slightly larger vessels than traditional 3v setup, but that cost is more than made up for but not needing additional vessels, hoses, fittings and controls. If you do a lot of really high gravity beers this method doesn't scale economically because it is a game of diminishing returns.. 1.040-1.060 though and its fantastic.

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

I've never done full batch BIAB but I've made a few 5 gallon batches that way. It went "okay." Then I tried to set up to "mash" in a slow cooker, with also disappointing results. So I'll probably do BIAB for my next 1 gallon batch, whenever that is.

Maybe I should try it full scale, since my convention process is annoyingly efficient (I am on the verge of being literally, physically unable to brew a "genuine" session beer x.x)

 

[masskrug]

Pretty easy for me to sparge with my biab set up. I mash then pull bag up and place in colander that fits my pot and sparge away. After the boil I chill and ferment in my same pot. One vessel for everything. Ultimate simplicity and can brew anything.

I'm intrigued. How do you ferment in the boil kettle? Do you have an airtight lid and airlock? Picture please.

 

[TexasWine]

so the heating element would be in the BK, and none in the mash kettle? Then you calculate how much water is needed for make up post mash, and have that in the BK, recirculating through both?

How do you control liquid levels? Seems like if you filled the mash vessel enough for the mash, then it would be reasonably full, but the level in the BK would be much lower, and you'd have to maintain that imbalance to maintain mash viscosity... But recirculating through both would cause both to seek equalization?

Or do you just fill both up and boil forever to get the volume back down?

Sounds like a neat idea, one that had crossed my mind, but I don't see how the levels would work.... Or do you 'tier' the vessels so that the BK's lower level is even with the higher level of the mash vessel and let physics do the rest?

I assume you're talking about the k-rims concept? If you look up the Blichmann Breweasy, that's a good example of this style of system. My understanding is the Brutus systems are as well, but I've done very little reading on them.

Essentially you're doing a no sparge mash, splitting the water between the two vessels. Levels can be maintained a variety of ways, such as eyeballing a valve position, but the easiest way is to use a float valve in the mash tun. You can either gravity drain from the MT to the boil kettle and then pump from the BK back to the top of the MT, or go with a horizontal set up and use pumps on both vessels.

No need to boil forever because you shouldn't need to use any more water than any other batch of beer you make. But, as you've obviously realized, this style of mashing allows you to expand the total volume of water you can hold for a given set of equipment. More water + more grain = more beer!

For me this is intriguing because I can increase batch size without the need to buy (much) new equipment. My only concern with the concept is something most folks wouldn't consider, and that is the surface area exposed to the atmosphere is doubled, increasing the rate of oxygen pick up during the mash. But I think I can overcome it with another good mash cap.

Hope this helps.

 

[schematix]

I'm intrigued. How do you ferment in the boil kettle? Do you have an airtight lid and airlock? Picture please.

I have recently been looking into using a conical with a boil coil to make a single vessel boil kettle + fermenter.

The advantage is that for the boil you can easily create a low oxygen environment before, during and after boil. When the boil is over you let it settle for a while then drop the trub, then pitch. Since its a conical your wort losses would be very minimal.

Fermentation is easy since it's a conical. If you need to dry hop you just open the lid and add the hops.

When fermentation is winding down you rack above the yeast into kegs. If you did not dry hop then its easy to dump the clean yeast right into containers to save.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I have recently been looking into using a conical with a boil coil to make a single vessel boil kettle + fermenter.

The advantage is that for the boil you can easily create a low oxygen environment before, during and after boil. When the boil is over you let it settle for a while then drop the trub, then pitch. Since its a conical your wort losses would be very minimal.

Fermentation is easy since it's a conical. If you need to dry hop you just open the lid and add the hops.

When fermentation is winding down you rack above the yeast into kegs. If you did not dry hop then its easy to dump the clean yeast right into containers to save.

That's an awesome idea!

 

[Morrey]

But when using BIAB we lose efficiency so then what?

I have both a propane heated HERMS kettle with an Igloo Mash tun setup and also do BIAB. Like many of use realize, the proper setup is critical to success with either system.

With experience in both 3V and BIAB systems, I find that my mash efficiency with either system is typically very close with each other. I took note of the quote that BIAB means an efficiency loss.

My comment is more of a question than a comment....Are home brewers who are experienced in both 3V and BIAB generally finding their BIAB efforts result in a mash efficiency loss compared to their 3V systems?

 

[mongoose33]

I've done about....7 or maybe 8 BIAB brew days, formerly using a cooler mash tun.

<snip>
The only place I've struggled with BIAB is getting the mash temp correct. I use a Blichmann Hellfire and what I've discovered is there's a lot of residual heat in the burner setup that continues to heat the kettle. I've also struggled with there being significant temperature layers in the mash. I stir it up well and I still end up with hotter than I like.

I brewed again on Saturday and tried two different approaches together which seemed to work.

One was waiting a few minutes after I hit strike temperature for the system to equalize a bit, after which time I stirred the water to equalize any layers of temperature.

The other was to stir the mash (gently, gently!) to bring up mash from the bottom to the top. There seems to be a propensity for these mashes to stratify on temperature as the grain acts as an insulator. The bottom of the kettle can be hotter than the top as there's little if any convection. So I create that "convection" by stirring.

I had a much better starting temp and it held well throughout the mash.

 

[Murphys_Law]

I brewed again on Saturday and tried two different approaches together which seemed to work.



One was waiting a few minutes after I hit strike temperature for the system to equalize a bit, after which time I stirred the water to equalize any layers of temperature.



The other was to stir the mash (gently, gently!) to bring up mash from the bottom to the top. There seems to be a propensity for these mashes to stratify on temperature as the grain acts as an insulator. The bottom of the kettle can be hotter than the top as there's little if any convection. So I create that "convection" by stirring.



I had a much better starting temp and it held well throughout the mash.

I've been doing this recently. I run my strike a little hotter and submerge my bag when the temp settles on my target.

I also stir at 45 mins and 30 mins and then let it rest for the last 30 mins, then give it stir before I lift the bag.

I haven't had any issue with maintaining mash temps in my single vessel BIAB. I use a reflectix wrap and lid cover and it does a great job. Occasionally I'll have to relight the burner to pump up a degree or so but it's quick and easy.

Leave reflectix wrap on kettle when firing up the burner. DONT DO THAT!

 

[casualbrewer]

I'm intrigued. How do you ferment in the boil kettle? Do you have an airtight lid and airlock? Picture please.

Let me see if I can take a pic. I drilled a hole in my lid and put an airlock in it and then used clear silicone to fashion a gasket around the lid. Seems to work well for me. I just weigh down the lid. Only thing I can't do is brew and ferment at same time but I don't drink enough to need that.

 

[thunderwagn]

Purchased all my stainless parts last night from Bobby @brewhardware for my cooler mash tun. I've always done full volume BIAB so sparging and coming up with the correct volumes into and out of kettle are a bit new to me! I'm going through and trying to set up or at least start setting up new equipment profiles for batch sparging and figuring out where my volumes need to be.
Of course I understand the concept. It's just new to me taking a different approach. I've really enjoyed taking on something new!

 

[SlitheryDee]

I've been doing this recently. I run my strike a little hotter and submerge my bag when the temp settles on my target.

I also stir at 45 mins and 30 mins and then let it rest for the last 30 mins, then give it stir before I lift the bag.

I haven't had any issue with maintaining mash temps in my single vessel BIAB. I use a reflectix wrap and lid cover and it does a great job. Occasionally I'll have to relight the burner to pump up a degree or so but it's quick and easy.

Leave reflectix wrap on kettle when firing up the burner. DONT DO THAT!

I started with only a reflectix wrap and firing up the burner when the temps got too low for my taste. That seemed to work pretty well, but it was a little more micromanagement than I liked. Lately I've been removing the kettle from the burner and setting it on a foam pad on the ground to remove that as a point of heat conduction. Then I wrap my reflectix insulation around it and wrap that whole thing up with a blanket that I previously laid out on the ground under the foam pad.

The last full volume batch I did like that I measured a 3.3 degree drop from the beginning of the mash to the end. I do give up the ability to easily stir mid-mash, but honestly my conversion efficiency hasn't seemed to suffer because of it. If I do a sparge step I lose more heat, so I have to account for that somewhat with my strike temperature, but sparging still increases my bh efficiency somewhat over the full volume mash.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I have to agree, without a wench to help you with your sac, I remain unconvinced this is the easiest way. Even though I know mash temp doesnt matter I still try to insulate. Two vessel i believe will become norm. All that being said I can brew 5g in 2 hr 40 min and 11 in three so its hard to switch because brewing fast is my thing. For 11g batches i use 2 bags.

I'd love to see a timeline of how you brew 5g in 2 hrs 40 min. I'm guessing you have a super powerful burner? I burn over an hour just heading strike water and getting wort boiling.

 

[applescrap]

I'd love to see a timeline of how you brew 5g in 2 hrs 40 min. I'm guessing you have a super powerful burner? I burn over an hour just heading strike water and getting wort boiling.

Sure, and I brew 10 gallons in 3 hours. I have a thread on quick Brewing. Actually two of them. Would welcome some company on them. I give a timeline of every Brew I make.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Purchased all my stainless parts last night from Bobby @brewhardware for my cooler mash tun. I've always done full volume BIAB so sparging and coming up with the correct volumes into and out of kettle are a bit new to me! I'm going through and trying to set up or at least start setting up new equipment profiles for batch sparging and figuring out where my volumes need to be.
Of course I understand the concept. It's just new to me taking a different approach. I've really enjoyed taking on something new!

I started with a cooler MLT and batch sparging and I'm still doing it that way. I used Brew365.com for my water calcs (volumes and temps) and they've been spot on.

 

[r8rphan]

Comment deleted (responded to the wrong person.. lol)

 

[r8rphan]

I assume you're talking about the k-rims concept? If you look up the Blichmann Breweasy, that's a good example of this style of system. My understanding is the Brutus systems are as well, but I've done very little reading on them.

Essentially you're doing a no sparge mash, splitting the water between the two vessels. Levels can be maintained a variety of ways, such as eyeballing a valve position, but the easiest way is to use a float valve in the mash tun. You can either gravity drain from the MT to the boil kettle and then pump from the BK back to the top of the MT, or go with a horizontal set up and use pumps on both vessels.

No need to boil forever because you shouldn't need to use any more water than any other batch of beer you make. But, as you've obviously realized, this style of mashing allows you to expand the total volume of water you can hold for a given set of equipment. More water + more grain = more beer!

For me this is intriguing because I can increase batch size without the need to buy (much) new equipment. My only concern with the concept is something most folks wouldn't consider, and that is the surface area exposed to the atmosphere is doubled, increasing the rate of oxygen pick up during the mash. But I think I can overcome it with another good mash cap.

Hope this helps.

Originally, before I built this last brewery, I was trying to think of a way to do just this... Yeah, I'd like to see some DIY systems that incorporate this method...

You 'could' even mash in both vessels at once if you wanted to make a beer that had a grain bill that was too big for the one vessel... This would also allow for a very big water to grain mash ratio too...

 

[thunderwagn]

I started with a cooler MLT and batch sparging and I'm still doing it that way. I used Brew365.com for my water calcs (volumes and temps) and they've been spot on.

Thanks for that link. That is very handy!

 

[Epos7]

Sure, and I brew 10 gallons in 3 hours. I have a thread on quick Brewing. Actually two of them. Would welcome some company on them. I give a timeline of every Brew I make.

Dang, I'm lucky if I can get a 10 gallon batch done in 5 hours. 2 hours of that is waiting on the water to heat, though. Looks like you're using an electric element, which must be substantially faster.