Anyone stop BIAB and return to more traditional Mash and Sparge techniques?

[r8rphan]

Yes, full volume, no sparge mash. And yes, the Brau Supply controller keeps the temp steady whilst recirculating.

Just an FYI, another option with the two vessel approach is to mash k-rims style, circulating through both vessels. Haven't done it yet, but I'm looking for easy ways to increase batch size without a sparge, and this would do the trick.

so the heating element would be in the BK, and none in the mash kettle? Then you calculate how much water is needed for make up post mash, and have that in the BK, recirculating through both?

How do you control liquid levels? Seems like if you filled the mash vessel enough for the mash, then it would be reasonably full, but the level in the BK would be much lower, and you'd have to maintain that imbalance to maintain mash viscosity... But recirculating through both would cause both to seek equalization?

Or do you just fill both up and boil forever to get the volume back down?

Sounds like a neat idea, one that had crossed my mind, but I don't see how the levels would work.... Or do you 'tier' the vessels so that the BK's lower level is even with the higher level of the mash vessel and let physics do the rest?

 

[schematix]

so the heating element would be in the BK, and none in the mash kettle? Then you calculate how much water is needed for make up post mash, and have that in the BK, recirculating through both?

How do you control liquid levels? Seems like if you filled the mash vessel enough for the mash, then it would be reasonably full, but the level in the BK would be much lower, and you'd have to maintain that imbalance to maintain mash viscosity... But recirculating through both would cause both to seek equalization?

Or do you just fill both up and boil forever to get the volume back down?

Sounds like a neat idea, one that had crossed my mind, but I don't see how the levels would work.... Or do you 'tier' the vessels so that the BK's lower level is even with the higher level of the mash vessel and let physics do the rest?

Regular element in BK. RIMS element for mash.

Water to heat = desired post boil volume + boil-off + mash tun dead space + grain adsorbtion + BK dead space (a.k.a how much wort you want plus the losses you incur)

Here's an example of the calculations i do:


So you heat say 16G in the BK, then PUMP it over to the MLT, mash, then transfer about 13G back. The exact numbers will vary based on the grain and equipment, but that's the rough idea. There are a number of tools out there for calculating all of this. It's actually much simpler than 3-v brewing as well and makes predicting actual gravities and volumes much more of a science.

As you can see you do need slightly larger vessels than traditional 3v setup, but that cost is more than made up for but not needing additional vessels, hoses, fittings and controls. If you do a lot of really high gravity beers this method doesn't scale economically because it is a game of diminishing returns.. 1.040-1.060 though and its fantastic.

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

I've never done full batch BIAB but I've made a few 5 gallon batches that way. It went "okay." Then I tried to set up to "mash" in a slow cooker, with also disappointing results. So I'll probably do BIAB for my next 1 gallon batch, whenever that is.

Maybe I should try it full scale, since my convention process is annoyingly efficient (I am on the verge of being literally, physically unable to brew a "genuine" session beer x.x)

 

[masskrug]

Pretty easy for me to sparge with my biab set up. I mash then pull bag up and place in colander that fits my pot and sparge away. After the boil I chill and ferment in my same pot. One vessel for everything. Ultimate simplicity and can brew anything.

I'm intrigued. How do you ferment in the boil kettle? Do you have an airtight lid and airlock? Picture please.

 

[TexasWine]

so the heating element would be in the BK, and none in the mash kettle? Then you calculate how much water is needed for make up post mash, and have that in the BK, recirculating through both?

How do you control liquid levels? Seems like if you filled the mash vessel enough for the mash, then it would be reasonably full, but the level in the BK would be much lower, and you'd have to maintain that imbalance to maintain mash viscosity... But recirculating through both would cause both to seek equalization?

Or do you just fill both up and boil forever to get the volume back down?

Sounds like a neat idea, one that had crossed my mind, but I don't see how the levels would work.... Or do you 'tier' the vessels so that the BK's lower level is even with the higher level of the mash vessel and let physics do the rest?

I assume you're talking about the k-rims concept? If you look up the Blichmann Breweasy, that's a good example of this style of system. My understanding is the Brutus systems are as well, but I've done very little reading on them.

Essentially you're doing a no sparge mash, splitting the water between the two vessels. Levels can be maintained a variety of ways, such as eyeballing a valve position, but the easiest way is to use a float valve in the mash tun. You can either gravity drain from the MT to the boil kettle and then pump from the BK back to the top of the MT, or go with a horizontal set up and use pumps on both vessels.

No need to boil forever because you shouldn't need to use any more water than any other batch of beer you make. But, as you've obviously realized, this style of mashing allows you to expand the total volume of water you can hold for a given set of equipment. More water + more grain = more beer!

For me this is intriguing because I can increase batch size without the need to buy (much) new equipment. My only concern with the concept is something most folks wouldn't consider, and that is the surface area exposed to the atmosphere is doubled, increasing the rate of oxygen pick up during the mash. But I think I can overcome it with another good mash cap.

Hope this helps.

 

[schematix]

I'm intrigued. How do you ferment in the boil kettle? Do you have an airtight lid and airlock? Picture please.

I have recently been looking into using a conical with a boil coil to make a single vessel boil kettle + fermenter.

The advantage is that for the boil you can easily create a low oxygen environment before, during and after boil. When the boil is over you let it settle for a while then drop the trub, then pitch. Since its a conical your wort losses would be very minimal.

Fermentation is easy since it's a conical. If you need to dry hop you just open the lid and add the hops.

When fermentation is winding down you rack above the yeast into kegs. If you did not dry hop then its easy to dump the clean yeast right into containers to save.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I have recently been looking into using a conical with a boil coil to make a single vessel boil kettle + fermenter.

The advantage is that for the boil you can easily create a low oxygen environment before, during and after boil. When the boil is over you let it settle for a while then drop the trub, then pitch. Since its a conical your wort losses would be very minimal.

Fermentation is easy since it's a conical. If you need to dry hop you just open the lid and add the hops.

When fermentation is winding down you rack above the yeast into kegs. If you did not dry hop then its easy to dump the clean yeast right into containers to save.

That's an awesome idea!

 

[Morrey]

But when using BIAB we lose efficiency so then what?

I have both a propane heated HERMS kettle with an Igloo Mash tun setup and also do BIAB. Like many of use realize, the proper setup is critical to success with either system.

With experience in both 3V and BIAB systems, I find that my mash efficiency with either system is typically very close with each other. I took note of the quote that BIAB means an efficiency loss.

My comment is more of a question than a comment....Are home brewers who are experienced in both 3V and BIAB generally finding their BIAB efforts result in a mash efficiency loss compared to their 3V systems?

 

[mongoose33]

I've done about....7 or maybe 8 BIAB brew days, formerly using a cooler mash tun.

<snip>
The only place I've struggled with BIAB is getting the mash temp correct. I use a Blichmann Hellfire and what I've discovered is there's a lot of residual heat in the burner setup that continues to heat the kettle. I've also struggled with there being significant temperature layers in the mash. I stir it up well and I still end up with hotter than I like.

I brewed again on Saturday and tried two different approaches together which seemed to work.

One was waiting a few minutes after I hit strike temperature for the system to equalize a bit, after which time I stirred the water to equalize any layers of temperature.

The other was to stir the mash (gently, gently!) to bring up mash from the bottom to the top. There seems to be a propensity for these mashes to stratify on temperature as the grain acts as an insulator. The bottom of the kettle can be hotter than the top as there's little if any convection. So I create that "convection" by stirring.

I had a much better starting temp and it held well throughout the mash.

 

[Murphys_Law]

I brewed again on Saturday and tried two different approaches together which seemed to work.



One was waiting a few minutes after I hit strike temperature for the system to equalize a bit, after which time I stirred the water to equalize any layers of temperature.



The other was to stir the mash (gently, gently!) to bring up mash from the bottom to the top. There seems to be a propensity for these mashes to stratify on temperature as the grain acts as an insulator. The bottom of the kettle can be hotter than the top as there's little if any convection. So I create that "convection" by stirring.



I had a much better starting temp and it held well throughout the mash.

I've been doing this recently. I run my strike a little hotter and submerge my bag when the temp settles on my target.

I also stir at 45 mins and 30 mins and then let it rest for the last 30 mins, then give it stir before I lift the bag.

I haven't had any issue with maintaining mash temps in my single vessel BIAB. I use a reflectix wrap and lid cover and it does a great job. Occasionally I'll have to relight the burner to pump up a degree or so but it's quick and easy.

Leave reflectix wrap on kettle when firing up the burner. DONT DO THAT!

 

[casualbrewer]

I'm intrigued. How do you ferment in the boil kettle? Do you have an airtight lid and airlock? Picture please.

Let me see if I can take a pic. I drilled a hole in my lid and put an airlock in it and then used clear silicone to fashion a gasket around the lid. Seems to work well for me. I just weigh down the lid. Only thing I can't do is brew and ferment at same time but I don't drink enough to need that.

 

[thunderwagn]

Purchased all my stainless parts last night from Bobby @brewhardware for my cooler mash tun. I've always done full volume BIAB so sparging and coming up with the correct volumes into and out of kettle are a bit new to me! I'm going through and trying to set up or at least start setting up new equipment profiles for batch sparging and figuring out where my volumes need to be.
Of course I understand the concept. It's just new to me taking a different approach. I've really enjoyed taking on something new!

 

[SlitheryDee]

I've been doing this recently. I run my strike a little hotter and submerge my bag when the temp settles on my target.

I also stir at 45 mins and 30 mins and then let it rest for the last 30 mins, then give it stir before I lift the bag.

I haven't had any issue with maintaining mash temps in my single vessel BIAB. I use a reflectix wrap and lid cover and it does a great job. Occasionally I'll have to relight the burner to pump up a degree or so but it's quick and easy.

Leave reflectix wrap on kettle when firing up the burner. DONT DO THAT!

I started with only a reflectix wrap and firing up the burner when the temps got too low for my taste. That seemed to work pretty well, but it was a little more micromanagement than I liked. Lately I've been removing the kettle from the burner and setting it on a foam pad on the ground to remove that as a point of heat conduction. Then I wrap my reflectix insulation around it and wrap that whole thing up with a blanket that I previously laid out on the ground under the foam pad.

The last full volume batch I did like that I measured a 3.3 degree drop from the beginning of the mash to the end. I do give up the ability to easily stir mid-mash, but honestly my conversion efficiency hasn't seemed to suffer because of it. If I do a sparge step I lose more heat, so I have to account for that somewhat with my strike temperature, but sparging still increases my bh efficiency somewhat over the full volume mash.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I have to agree, without a wench to help you with your sac, I remain unconvinced this is the easiest way. Even though I know mash temp doesnt matter I still try to insulate. Two vessel i believe will become norm. All that being said I can brew 5g in 2 hr 40 min and 11 in three so its hard to switch because brewing fast is my thing. For 11g batches i use 2 bags.

I'd love to see a timeline of how you brew 5g in 2 hrs 40 min. I'm guessing you have a super powerful burner? I burn over an hour just heading strike water and getting wort boiling.

 

[applescrap]

I'd love to see a timeline of how you brew 5g in 2 hrs 40 min. I'm guessing you have a super powerful burner? I burn over an hour just heading strike water and getting wort boiling.

Sure, and I brew 10 gallons in 3 hours. I have a thread on quick Brewing. Actually two of them. Would welcome some company on them. I give a timeline of every Brew I make.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Purchased all my stainless parts last night from Bobby @brewhardware for my cooler mash tun. I've always done full volume BIAB so sparging and coming up with the correct volumes into and out of kettle are a bit new to me! I'm going through and trying to set up or at least start setting up new equipment profiles for batch sparging and figuring out where my volumes need to be.
Of course I understand the concept. It's just new to me taking a different approach. I've really enjoyed taking on something new!

I started with a cooler MLT and batch sparging and I'm still doing it that way. I used Brew365.com for my water calcs (volumes and temps) and they've been spot on.

 

[r8rphan]

Comment deleted (responded to the wrong person.. lol)

 

[r8rphan]

I assume you're talking about the k-rims concept? If you look up the Blichmann Breweasy, that's a good example of this style of system. My understanding is the Brutus systems are as well, but I've done very little reading on them.

Essentially you're doing a no sparge mash, splitting the water between the two vessels. Levels can be maintained a variety of ways, such as eyeballing a valve position, but the easiest way is to use a float valve in the mash tun. You can either gravity drain from the MT to the boil kettle and then pump from the BK back to the top of the MT, or go with a horizontal set up and use pumps on both vessels.

No need to boil forever because you shouldn't need to use any more water than any other batch of beer you make. But, as you've obviously realized, this style of mashing allows you to expand the total volume of water you can hold for a given set of equipment. More water + more grain = more beer!

For me this is intriguing because I can increase batch size without the need to buy (much) new equipment. My only concern with the concept is something most folks wouldn't consider, and that is the surface area exposed to the atmosphere is doubled, increasing the rate of oxygen pick up during the mash. But I think I can overcome it with another good mash cap.

Hope this helps.

Originally, before I built this last brewery, I was trying to think of a way to do just this... Yeah, I'd like to see some DIY systems that incorporate this method...

You 'could' even mash in both vessels at once if you wanted to make a beer that had a grain bill that was too big for the one vessel... This would also allow for a very big water to grain mash ratio too...

 

[thunderwagn]

I started with a cooler MLT and batch sparging and I'm still doing it that way. I used Brew365.com for my water calcs (volumes and temps) and they've been spot on.

Thanks for that link. That is very handy!

 

[Epos7]

Sure, and I brew 10 gallons in 3 hours. I have a thread on quick Brewing. Actually two of them. Would welcome some company on them. I give a timeline of every Brew I make.

Dang, I'm lucky if I can get a 10 gallon batch done in 5 hours. 2 hours of that is waiting on the water to heat, though. Looks like you're using an electric element, which must be substantially faster.

 

[Burndog]

I'm still not getting much better than 66% brewhouse efficiency

Today I did this recipe for PTE:
http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2015/10/pliny-elder-40.html

BIAB using a Yeti cooler.
6 Gal recipe where I used 5 Gal to mash.
Strike Temp - 168*
Mash @ 154* for 1 hour - Cooler maintains temp very well. Squeeze bag then transfer to Kettle
2 gallons in the kettle at 170+ for dunk sparge. 10 minutes stir then lift and squeeze and discard grains.
Transfer prior wort to kettle and boil...
Gravity after Mash was 1.057
OG prior to pitch was 1.064 should have been 1.070 per recipe.

Not sure what more I can do other than accept the figures/results of my methods and "up" the grains and dextrose till I start to hit the expected OGs.

Still not sure how others are getting higher efficiencies from BIAB.

 

[MaxStout]

I tend to get in the range of 70-75% brewhouse efficiency, once in a while upper 70s. It can dip into the 60s for very high gravity beers, but an expected 1.070 like yours shouldn't yield so low. How is your crush? Have you experimented with finer crushes, or double-crushing?

 

[ba-brewer]

I'm still not getting much better than 66% brewhouse efficiency

Today I did this recipe for PTE:
http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2015/10/pliny-elder-40.html

BIAB using a Yeti cooler.
6 Gal recipe where I used 5 Gal to mash.
Strike Temp - 168*
Mash @ 154* for 1 hour - Cooler maintains temp very well. Squeeze bag then transfer to Kettle
2 gallons in the kettle at 170+ for dunk sparge. 10 minutes stir then lift and squeeze and discard grains.
Transfer prior wort to kettle and boil...
Gravity after Mash was 1.057
OG prior to pitch was 1.064 should have been 1.070 per recipe.

Not sure what more I can do other than accept the figures/results of my methods and "up" the grains and dextrose till I start to hit the expected OGs.

Still not sure how others are getting higher efficiencies from BIAB.

Do you give your mash a period stir? I do it like every 15 or 20min, nothing crazy just a few turns to mix the grain well.

I calculate out my expected gravity then measure the mash gravity with a refractometer to determine when to drain based on gravity not time. Sometime conversion slows and is not done in 60min. That helped me get consistent efficiencies.

 

[mongoose33]

I'm still not getting much better than 66% brewhouse efficiency

Today I did this recipe for PTE:
http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2015/10/pliny-elder-40.html

BIAB using a Yeti cooler.
6 Gal recipe where I used 5 Gal to mash.
Strike Temp - 168*
Mash @ 154* for 1 hour - Cooler maintains temp very well. Squeeze bag then transfer to Kettle
2 gallons in the kettle at 170+ for dunk sparge. 10 minutes stir then lift and squeeze and discard grains.
Transfer prior wort to kettle and boil...
Gravity after Mash was 1.057
OG prior to pitch was 1.064 should have been 1.070 per recipe.

Not sure what more I can do other than accept the figures/results of my methods and "up" the grains and dextrose till I start to hit the expected OGs.

Still not sure how others are getting higher efficiencies from BIAB.

When I switched from traditional mash tun to BIAB my efficiencies stayed the same.

Here's what I do--I can't claim to understand this stuff well enough to tear apart your methods and find a place you could change things, but perhaps this might help:

1. I dropped the gap in my mill from .035 to .020.

2. I brewed today--typically I've been using 7.25 gallons of water.

3. I squeeze the bag. Of that 7.25 gallons I can usually get 6.5 to 6.7 gallons of wort. It's hard to tell exactly as wort at 154 degrees (my mash temp today) takes up more volume than cold water that I start with.

I do not sparge--squeeze enough and you'll get enough.

4. I stir at 15 minutes into the mash, making sure I bring up the mash from the bottom to the top, to make sure I'm fully mixing everything.

I take a sample at 15 minutes after stirring to check pH--but I also check gravity to see how I'm doing. Today that sample was at 1.039 at 15 minutes; at 60 minutes it was at 1.0495. So much of my conversion is happening very quickly.

5. I also stir at 30 minutes.

6. After the boil my gravity (what is OG) was 1.058


So you're using 7 gallons of water total compared to my 7.25. What do you end up with for gallons of yield? I'm leaving behind maybe 2/3 to 3/4 gallon after mercilessly squeezing.

I had a theory that seems more or less correct, after experimentation, that squeezing with no sparge was analogous to a dunk sparge and squeeze. Seemed to be pretty much the same.

So my guess is that since you're using less water than I am--and your grain bill is likely larger than mine, I only had 11# of grain, your bill must be larger--that you need more water in there somewhere. You say you're squeezing but without knowing what your yield is, it's hard to tell if you're squeezing enough. I suspect you're leaving a lot behind in the grain.

If I were you, my keys would be make sure your crush gap is .020, stir at 15 minutes and 30 minutes, use enough water, and squeeze more instead of dunk sparging.

My 2 cents--hope some of it may help. Good luck!

 

[Burndog]

I tend to get in the range of 70-75% brewhouse efficiency, once in a while upper 70s. It can dip into the 60s for very high gravity beers, but an expected 1.070 like yours shouldn't yield so low. How is your crush? Have you experimented with finer crushes, or double-crushing?

I grind my own with a new Cereal grinder set to .034. Have not considered double grinding....

 

[Burndog]

Do you give your mash a period stir? I do it like every 15 or 20min, nothing crazy just a few turns to mix the grain well.

I calculate out my expected gravity then measure the mash gravity with a refractometer to determine when to drain based on gravity not time. Sometime conversion slows and is not done in 60min. That helped me get consistent efficiencies.

Initial stir to assure good coverage and no dough balls. The another good stir before removing the bag and squeezing.

 

[McKnuckle]

I have used full volume BIAB exclusively for many batches, and have had no trouble dialing in acceptable mash efficiency in the 70-77% range. That being said, I have run a couple of batch-sparge-in-a-cooler efforts recently, just to revisit the process. My goal was not to improve efficiency, but rather just to see about ease of wort collection, clean up, stuff like that. I have a fixed gap on my mill, so that factor is constant.

My mash efficiency was 80% with the batch sparge. I had to vorlauf, which is a minor extra step. And I felt compelled to tip the cooler into the kettle (pressing the grist back with a spatula) to recover some more wort. There was a lot in there - basically as much as you might drain from the bag. After many BIAB batches, I couldn't waste that wort.

Some people complain about cleaning the bag; they prefer hosing out the cooler. But I brew and clean up inside, and the cooler is a pain to handle in a sink. I make a mess repeatedly rinsing and dumping it. The bag seems easier for me to handle.

Next brew I am going to repeat the standard batch sparge, same as these last couple of times, BUT I may line my cooler with the bag first. So it's a hybrid approach which leverages the bag as an additional filter and wort collection aid. This will give me the ability to avoid vorlauf, and a simple way to recover absorbed wort (hanging the bag and letting it drip into the kettle). I am set up for that with a pulley, so it's no big deal.

At the end of the day, all of these methods work fine. It is more about one's preferences and ability to achieve consistency, which then enables the brewer to better predict the outcome from a particular recipe. That to me is the end goal.

 

[mongoose33]

I grind my own with a new Cereal grinder set to .034. Have not considered double grinding....

I forgot to include that in my post--I always double-crush. The second crush is very fast.

I think that's your issue, right above. Your crush is too coarse. Get that gap down to .020 and see what you get.

 

[Burndog]

Get that gap down to .020 and see what you get.

Will do... Moving to .020 and we'll see where that gets me. Thanks for the tips!

 

[ba-brewer]

Initial stir to assure good coverage and no dough balls. The another good stir before removing the bag and squeezing.

I see you plan to go with a finer grind which should help conversion, but if your grain bed get too compacted a quick stir or two midway through would not hurt.