Anyone brewing Brut IPA?

[brew703]

I'm pretty much with you on this as I too am designing my recipe heading towards brew day this Saturday.

I'll go with 8# Pils and 2# flaked maize since I have some on hand. Flaked or minute rice will be fine too, but I think I'll skip the wheat on this one as we might get a bit of protein haze from that addition. My goal is clear beer, so I'll use whirlfloc in the boil and that should probably clear it ok.

Think I'll do my first hop in the WP (20 min) so will be the first time I've never added any hops at all while boiling. I'll use Hallertau Blanc for this and will add in some Amarillo for the taste profiles I enjoy. I'll finish the hop additions with a dry hop of Nelson Sauvin along with a touch more Amarillo in the FV after FG has stabilized.

I'll use US-05 for this one as I have plenty...plus yeast nutrients.

Probably go a bit heavier on SO4 than Cl for a dryer, more hop forward profile. The downside of this (and one I am concerned with) is that with too little Cl we may lose some of the mouthfeel that is needed.

Anyway....plans are developing so its time to make some decisions on my end.

Not sure when to add the glucoamylase yet...still in the research mode here.

Yeah, I'll skip the wheat as well. Will probably just roll with what I posted this time. I'm skeptical about no bittering but may eliminate the warrior addition and go with one of the hops I would use for WP and DH.

As for yeast, I mainly use S04 for most of my brews but for this one thinking I will go with US05.

For the enzyme, I'm leaning towards adding after fermentation. I really don't want to extend my brew day another hour and it seems like the ones who add in the mash end up adding some after fermentation.

I'm probably 2-3 weeks out from brewing this. Will not have any kegs available for a few weeks. This will give me more time to research a bit further.

Keep us posted on your upcoming brew day and how it turns out.

 

[SanPancho]

This new “style”has been made for years in SF. 70/30 pils to wheat, hal blanc and nelson hops were most common (before nelson just disappeared from spot market), and final gravity typically less than 4 pts. Staggered pitch of a mixed ferm, or all brett in a double dose. No enzymes. About 5 or 6 weeks.

Using enzymes apparently makes this a new invention?

Advice =. Light simple grain bill, adjuncts not necessary, low mineral requirements since beer is so light/dry, low ester yeast is easier to work with, fruit works well with style, some nobles work and most fruity hops do, careful with using wine yeasts, they spit out alot more glycogens(?) and can weigh down mouthfeel.

As noted throughout this thread and based on experience of old brewer who worked at SAB you can add enzymes to mash or ferm, more efficient in ferm due to ph. Also was more practical for them in their brewhouse .

Have been meaning to give it a whirl with the enyzmes. After further discussion with him recently, have a new schedule for the beer by using enzymes to cut few weeks off, hopefully. Generally following the guidelines here wrt enzyme in ferm, but one or two other tweaks as well. Will post back on results.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I don't see why there's a bunch of effort in avoiding the enzyme addition to just the fermenter. I, as well as others in this thread, have had good results with it, and the numbers couch stated (ie. better pH, doesn't flirt with a denaturing temp, longer contact time) essentially corroborate it with some common sense.

 

[couchsending]

You bring up a good point - one in which I have never tested actually. I typically target 5.25 for my optimal mash ph. Being that I read SEBAmyl-GL best works at 5.0 or below, I did consider that aspect of our enzyme addition.

So when wort is added to the FV and fermentation begins, when does ph begin dropping and how much? This I have never tested.

Since ph works best for the enzyme at or a bit under 5.0, how would it work to add a bit of lactic to the wort as we bring the temps down to yeast pitching temps? Then add the enzymes at 135F, continue cooling and pump wort to fermenter when cooled to proper temps.

Do you see any issues acidifying the wort at this point? I do it with Gose beers all the time and the yeast works fine...maybe add some yeast nutrients which is advised anyway. I don't think lowering .5 ph is going to be detectable to ruin the taste?

I generally target 5.2-5.3 for hoppy beers and adjust sparge PH to 5.4-5.5ish. That being said kettle full PH always tends to be slightly higher, 5.35-5.4 mostly. Ph should drop
Throughout the boil depending on boil length and amount of hops. I will almost always add acid at the end of the boil to target between 5.1 and 5.0 going into the FV for hoppy beers. How much depends on how big the Hop load is, etc.

PH drop during fermentation depends on a lot of variables, yeast strain, pitch rate, temp, etc but if lag is normal it should happen relatively fast. Check it after 12 hours or so, you’ll see it’s usually dropped quite a bit, or should have if fermentation is healthy. Again the time is dependent on a few variables.

 

[TravelingLight]

Alright fellas, can I jump in? How's the water? Ok cool, here I come!

I've been back channel texting @Morrey some about this because I've been planning one as well. I've read (most of) this thread, but still had some thoughts I wanted to expound on and get some feedback...

Enzyme:
As we know, everyone keeps going back and forth on where to add it: mash, BK while chilling, fermenter, all of the above, etc. My thoughts are to add in the BK while chilling/whirlpooling, when it gets under 140. Of note: lately I've been doing two WPs in my hoppy beers: a "high temp" WP at 170, and a "low temp" WP around 120. Ergo, after my high temp WP, I was thinking of chilling down to 120 for my second WP and toss the enzyme in with the second WP. I usually hold WPs for 20-30 mins, so that should be plenty of contact time, yes? BUT...I had not even considered ph of the wort. TBH, this thread is the first time I've seen anything about ph affecting the enzyme. I've never checked wort ph post-boil, so I have no idea what it would be. Thoughts? Finally, with regard to the enzyme, if I do it like this in the BK, is it necessary to also add it in the fermenter? Seems unnecessary, but I want a successful beer.

Hops:
First, I plan on doing a half ounce of Nugget @60 (or FWH) which will give me around 19-20 IBUs. The remainder of the hops won't go in until my whirlpools starting at 170ish, ergo, I shouldn't get much if any bittering from the post-boil hops (except for dry hops, but I think the research is still out on that?). But mainly I'm trying to figure out hop amounts and types. I typically target around 2 to 2.5 ounces per gallon in my hoppy beers. Schedule wise, this works out to: 25% WP1, 25% WP2, 50% DH. Now, when I'm hitting 2.5oz/gal, that's usually for my NEIPAs. 2oz/gal is more for pales/sessions/other. So do I target NEIPA-level hopping, or the pale/session hopping rate?

OTOH, what hops?! Here's what I've currently got in my inventory: Citra, Mosaic, Vic Secret, El Dorado, Wakatu. I always love citra/mosaic. But I've been itching to use the vic secret, because I've only used it once or twice. Regardless, I'd like to keep it to two hops, and one will likely be citra, because I think citra makes everything better. Thoughts on hops?

Water:
I've seen some people recommend a Czech Pils water profile. So I was thinking of using the Yellow Balanced profile in Bru'n water, i.e., 75 SO4, 60 Chloride? Thoughts?

 

[cactusgarrett]

The remainder of the hops won't go in until my whirlpools starting at 170ish, ergo, I shouldn't get much if any bittering from the post-boil hops

I think you might be surprised if you're assuming no bitterness comes from a flameout charge. In my latest version, i added a few grams of Magnum at 60min for wort stabilization (<5IBU), then 2oz of a 7% AA hop after flameout as a hopstand. Plenty of perceived bitterness came from this process.

 

[TravelingLight]

I think you might be surprised if you're assuming no bitterness comes from a flameout charge. In my latest version, i added a few grams of Magnum at 60min for wort stabilization (<5IBU), then 2oz of a 7% AA hop after flameout as a hopstand. Plenty of perceived bitterness came from this process.

What temp was your whirlpool, i.e., did you toss them in literally at flameout, or did you chill some before tossing it in? I definitely feel as though I get some bitterness from my 170* WPs. But how much? No idea. I know that's around the line of demarcation, for lack of a better term, for isomerization of hop oils, right? But what about your dry hops?

 

[cactusgarrett]

180-170°F. Just let it free fall for a bit before adding the hops, then let stand (free fall) for 10min.

 

[Morrey]

What temp was your whirlpool, i.e., did you toss them in literally at flameout, or did you chill some before tossing it in? I definitely feel as though I get some bitterness from my 170* WPs. But how much? No idea. I know that's around the line of demarcation, for lack of a better term, for isomerization of hop oils, right? But what about your dry hops?

@TravelingLight….The new version 3 of BeerSmith allows the user to input the wort temp you plan to add in the hops, the hop type and AA% as well as the amount of time you plan to leave the hops in the WP. If you don't have this program or version, send me some parameters and I'll run them up for you in BS so we can dial in your IBU's.

 

[TravelingLight]

180-170°F. Just let it free fall for a bit before adding the hops, then let stand (free fall) for 10min.

If you're tossing them in at 180, you're definitely getting bitterness. "Alpha acids will continue to isomerize after flameout until the temperature of the wort reaches about 175 °F (79 °C)...A hop stand in the 160–170 °F (71–77 °C) range will basically shut down the alpha acid isomerization reaction and the lower temperatures will reduce the vaporization of the essential oils." https://byo.com/article/hop-stands/

Regardless, definitely not arguing! Just discussing. Also regardless, I'm still trying to decide on what hops to use. What's been your favorite combo(s) for this style? Cheers brother.

 

[TravelingLight]

@TravelingLight….The new version 3 of BeerSmith allows the user to input the wort temp you plan to add in the hops, the hop type and AA% as well as the amount of time you plan to leave the hops in the WP. If you don't have this program or version, send me some parameters and I'll run them up for you in BS so we can dial in your IBU's.

I'm still on BS2. But I've heard that about BS3, I just haven't upgraded. Do you think the new WP/temp feature is accurate or worth it? I'll discuss with you when I give you a shout this weekend.

 

[Morrey]

I'm still on BS2. But I've heard that about BS3, I just haven't upgraded. Do you think the new WP/temp feature is accurate or worth it? I'll discuss with you when I give you a shout this weekend.

Yeah, call me this weekend and we can get up a game plan. I may be brewing this Brut when you call Saturday, so all the better.

I use the FO, WP and DH calcs all the time and glad the new BS v3 addresses this. I use it every brew now and consider the $29 upgrade well spent.

About enzymes: Distillers who mash corn washes are very experienced with enzymes, but the typical brewer may not be so keen on enzymes...at least not YET. Ph and temperatures are always stressed with corn washes and I learned my lesson with low conversion if the ph or temps are not just right. Washes are fermented in the 80's and 90's so the enzyme is still in it's optimum range. Beer fermentation is done lower than the desired or optimum enzyme range hence my questions and caution. It is worth mentioning that corn is very "unforgiving" to convert while barley is forgiving in comparison. Maybe the super tight controls are not terribly important but I still feel like I'll be focused on temps and ph.

Getting my thoughts together now and we can discuss when you call.

 

[Morrey]

If you're tossing them in at 180, you're definitely getting bitterness. "Alpha acids will continue to isomerize after flameout until the temperature of the wort reaches about 175 °F (79 °C)...A hop stand in the 160–170 °F (71–77 °C) range will basically shut down the alpha acid isomerization reaction and the lower temperatures will reduce the vaporization of the essential oils." https://byo.com/article/hop-stands/

Regardless, definitely not arguing! Just discussing. Also regardless, I'm still trying to decide on what hops to use. What's been your favorite combo(s) for this style? Cheers brother.

@dmtaylor offers this interesting IBU calculation method geared for folks who may not be using BS v3. I proposed to Dave a 10 minute whirlpool at FO and he offered the following manual method:

Great question. I divide the whirlpool time by 2 and then add that much time to every hop addition. So your 15-minute boil addition becomes 20, your 60 if you had one becomes 65, and your 10-minute whirlpool is treated the same as if it had been boiled for 5 minutes. This method works really really well for me.

 

[Hayden123982]

Genus Brewing just released a good YouTube video on Brut IPA

 

[stickyfinger]

Genus Brewing just released a good YouTube video on Brut IPA

ha ha ha. never watched their stuff before. they are hilarious. they give a nice rundown of the beer and some anecdotal advice. the pairing is funny to me. very entertaining. going to check out their other videos.

 

[doug293cz]

My brut came in at 0.996 after starting at 1.053 (all calibrated hydrometer measurements.) Used Amylo 300 in the fermenter only. It's carbing now with 2 oz each of Simcoe and Amarillo keg hops. Full recipe and details on Friday.

Brew on

 

[brew703]

Some of the recipes I've seen use flaked corn & rice or even wheat with Pilsner malt. I've never used flaked corn or rice. Is it best to use both or just one? One of the recipes I saw used 60% Pilsner and 20% each flaked corn & rice. Seems a bit high to me but not sure. I thought about using some wheat as I kinda want a somewhat hazy appearance but not sure.
I'm still a couple weeks out before I brew this so i have some time to decide on a final recipe.

 

[cactusgarrett]

My brut came in at 0.996 after starting at 1.053 (all calibrated hydrometer measurements.) Used Amylo 300 in the fermenter only. It's carbing now with 2 oz each of Simcoe and Amarillo keg hops. Full recipe and details on Friday.

Sounds damn similar to mine - numbers and hops. Cheers!

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Brewing this today;
6gallons
80% Pilsen
10% White Wheat
10% Flaked Rice
5 IBU Rakau @ 5min
2oz Rakau WP @ 165 (10IBU)
2oz Nelson WP @ 165 (10IBU)
2-2.5oz Rakau DH
2-2.5oz Nelson DH
WLP007 @ 65f
1.054OG-1.000?FG

Not going to over think the enzyme addition, letting FedEx determine when the FermFast Glucoamylase will be added...either between lauter and boil, after whirlpool before fermenter, or in the fermenter

 

[brew703]

Let me ask this: Why would one use flaked rice over flaked corn for a Brut?
Is there a benefit for using one over the over? I've never used either so just curious as I put together my recipe for a Brut.
My recipe will include some white wheat as I want a slight haze.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Let me ask this: Why would one use flaked rice over flaked corn for a Brut?
Is there a benefit for using one over the over? I've never used either so just curious as I put together my recipe for a Brut.
My recipe will include some white wheat as I want a slight haze.

My reason for not using it is because I don’t want any corn flavor, I want a very clean malt flavor.

 

[bleme]

I have a friend who read this article and used cold steeping to make near-beer, then the 'spent grains' as an adjunct to make a brut. He just brewed it last week so I'll report back in a month or so how it turned out.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

This Twitter thread from Beer Nouveau in Manchester is interesting :
https://twitter.com/BeerNouveau/status/1019863030400765953

Inspired by German Diatbier, Steve is looking to get down to 1.000 without enzymes, by using various tricks like a long mash at 60C and a 15 minute boil, and not boiling the second runnings but adding them to the fermenter to provide enzymes to break down any remaining dextrins.

Be interesting to see how he gets on.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Brewing this today;
6gallons
80% Pilsen
10% White Wheat
10% Flaked Rice
5 IBU Rakau @ 5min
2oz Rakau WP @ 165 (10IBU)
2oz Nelson WP @ 165 (10IBU)
2-2.5oz Rakau DH
2-2.5oz Nelson DH
WLP007 @ 65f
1.054OG-1.000?FG

Not going to over think the enzyme addition, letting FedEx determine when the FermFast Glucoamylase will be added...either between lauter and boil, after whirlpool before fermenter, or in the fermenter

So I ended up getting the Glucoamylase at the end of the boil. I whirpooled then cooled to 135f and added 10g for 30min then continued to cool to pitch temp. I couldn’t find too much info on how much to add so I went with what the distillers are doing....this might be done in a couple days lol

 

[Hayden123982]

ha ha ha. never watched their stuff before. they are hilarious. they give a nice rundown of the beer and some anecdotal advice. the pairing is funny to me. very entertaining. going to check out their other videos.

They’re a local homebrew shop, turned local brewery. Great place to drop in if you’re driving through eastern WA

 

[stickyfinger]

They’re a local homebrew shop, turned local brewery. Great place to drop in if you’re driving through eastern WA

maybe one day. i have relatives in moses lake and friends in moscow. seem like fun guys trying to make it with a small shop. i hope they can do it

 

[doug293cz]

I didn't want to go for the "as pale as possible" brut, so added a small amount of Victory malt to give it a more golden color. Below is the recipe:

Maris Otter     4.75 lb
Pilsner         4.75 lb
Victory         0.50 lb
Calcium           82 ppm
Magnesium          1 ppm
Sodium             2 ppm    
Sulfate          100 ppm
Chloride          60 ppm
90 Minute mash @ 152°F dropping to 145°F
60 Minute boil
Sterling (10.5%)  2 oz @ 5 min
Pekko (16.8%)     2 oz @ 5 min
Lemon Drop (6%)   1 oz 30 min hopstand starting @ 168°F
XR6297 Exp (15%)  1 oz 30 min hopstand
                  Temp @ end of hopstand = 140°F
OG 1.053 (hydrometer)
Pitched 1 packet of Imperial Flagship (Chico) @ 65°F
1 min of O2 post pitch
Added ~3ml Amylo 300 at pitch
Ferment @ 65°F
FG 0.996 (hydorometer) reached after 4 days
ABV 7.5%
Simcoe            2 oz keg hops
Amarillo          2 oz keg hops

Served this at my beer club meeting last night, and it was very well received. Folks didn't guess that the FG was as low as it is. Has a nice round mouth feel, and a good hoppy nose and taste. Doesn't come across as bone dry, which I assume comes from the choice of hops. I'm very happy with the results, and plan to keep this or something very similar in rotation.

It may not meet the archetypal definition of a Brut IPA, but I like it.

Brew on

 

[WiscoBrewer]

So I ended up getting the Glucoamylase at the end of the boil. I whirpooled then cooled to 135f and added 10g for 30min then continued to cool to pitch temp. I couldn’t find too much info on how much to add so I went with what the distillers are doing....this might be done in a couple days lol

Just a follow up...I pitched 4days ago, krausen is almost dropped so I took a gravity reading. Dropped from 1.054 to 1.010, tastes a lil sweet yet. I know it’s got a few points to go, but I wouldn’t expect this sweetness at 1.010, it’s almost like there’s lactose in it. Maybe the glucoamylase broke it down to something the WLP007 can’t fully ferment? Anyway, the glucoamylase did it’s job hopefully the yeast finish its job as well...targeting 1.000-1.002 and already at 81% attenuation.

 

[stickyfinger]

Check it out. “Et tu, Brute” as a name for an “imperial” brut ipa

 

[couchsending]

Dry hopped mine today... 3oz Kohatu, 4.5oz Blanc. Was going to go Nelson but decided to save it for something else.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Just a follow up...I pitched 4days ago, krausen is almost dropped so I took a gravity reading. Dropped from 1.054 to 1.010, tastes a lil sweet yet. I know it’s got a few points to go, but I wouldn’t expect this sweetness at 1.010, it’s almost like there’s lactose in it. Maybe the glucoamylase broke it down to something the WLP007 can’t fully ferment? Anyway, the glucoamylase did it’s job hopefully the yeast finish its job as well...targeting 1.000-1.002 and already at 81% attenuation.

If you're worried, you can hedge your bets and toss some enzyme in the fermenter on the back end of fermentation. I would bet it'd work better there than the mash/kettle, if had to pick one versus the other.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

If you're worried, you can hedge your bets and toss some enzyme in the fermenter on the back end of fermentation. I would bet it'd work better there than the mash/kettle, if had to pick one versus the other.

I didn’t use it in the mash. I whirlpooled at 165f then dropped to 135f (131f-140f optimal temp range) let it do its thing for 45min then continued to cool to pitch temp. I think it’s more the yeast reached 81% attenuation started slowing down. What’s got my curiousity is why it tastes sweet at 1.010? My first thought is esters from the yeast. My fridge is full and I’m fermenting in the basement (64f ambient) and it got up to 69f which isn’t too crazy. I’ve never fermented high with WLP007 so I’m not sure what temps esters start to kick in.

 

[stickyfinger]

I didn’t use it in the mash. I whirlpooled at 165f then dropped to 135f (131f-140f optimal temp range) let it do its thing for 45min then continued to cool to pitch temp. I think it’s more the yeast reached 81% attenuation started slowing down. What’s got my curiousity is why it tastes sweet at 1.010? My first thought is esters from the yeast. My fridge is full and I’m fermenting in the basement (64f ambient) and it got up to 69f which isn’t too crazy. I’ve never fermented high with WLP007 so I’m not sure what temps esters start to kick in.

i followed a similar procedure. added enzymes during a hopstand at 130ish. Mine ended at 1.004. Next time I’ll add enzymes during fermentation, once the beer pH has dropped.

 

[couchsending]

I didn’t use it in the mash. I whirlpooled at 165f then dropped to 135f (131f-140f optimal temp range) let it do its thing for 45min then continued to cool to pitch temp. I think it’s more the yeast reached 81% attenuation started slowing down. What’s got my curiousity is why it tastes sweet at 1.010? My first thought is esters from the yeast. My fridge is full and I’m fermenting in the basement (64f ambient) and it got up to 69f which isn’t too crazy. I’ve never fermented high with WLP007 so I’m not sure what temps esters start to kick in.

it tastes sweet cause the enzyme has converted those complex sugars into simple ones and that's what you're tasting. Usually at 1.010 you've only got complex sugars left that aren't that sweet.

I don't see a reason to use it in the kettle after boil unless you're going to raise it back up to denature. You're better off just using
it in the Fermenter. 007 fermented on the warm side will taste more tart than anything else.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

it tastes sweet cause the enzyme has converted those complex sugars into simple ones and that's what you're tasting. Usually at 1.010 you've only got complex sugars left that aren't that sweet.

I don't see a reason to use it in the kettle after boil unless you're going to raise it back up to denature. You're better off just using
it in the Fermenter. 007 fermented on the warm side will taste more tart than anything else.

I agree but at 81% attenuation you’d think it would have converted most of those sugars, that’s why I’m wondering if the enzyme is breaking the carbs/starches down to either sugars that can’t be converted by the yeast or just too much sugars for the yeast to convert.

I may be missing something, but I don’t see how adding the enzyme in the kettle after the boil is any different than adding it in the fermenter...unless you’d be adding it after primary fermentation, although then you’re only left with the few remaining healthy yeast to convert the “extra” sugars rather than the whole lot.

Personally I think it’s going to matter more how much enzyme you add and when. The when doesn’t really matter as long as it’s not too much or too long in relation to when and you end up with too many sugars for the yeast to convert before reaching 80-85% attenuation. This will end up attenuating a bit more and we’ll see if it dries out, but I’m willing to bet I added too much glucoamylase and/or for too long and next time if I half the dose or don’t add any at all I’ll still have a sub 1.010 beer that actually tastes dry.

BTW, this glucoamylase’s optimal ph range is 4-4.5 and stable between 2.8-5.

 

[brew703]

For those who kegged, what PSI are you serving at?

 

[WiscoBrewer]

i followed a similar procedure. added enzymes during a hopstand at 130ish. Mine ended at 1.004. Next time I’ll add enzymes during fermentation, once the beer pH has dropped.

I saw in an earlier post that you used the FermFast glucoamylase, a 10g packet, how much wort was there? Also curious what your OG was and yeast used?

 

[doug293cz]

I used about 3 - 5 ml of Amylo 300 liquid, only in the fermenter at yeast pitch, for ~5.5 gal. Nothing in mash or BK. Used Imperial Flagship (Chico), direct pitch from original ~200 bil cells packet, no starter, no yeast nutrient, 1 min O2 bubble. Went from 1.053 to 0.996 in four days @ 65°F. 108% apparent attenuation.

A lot of you folks are making it much more complicated than it has to be. KISS (whenever you can.)

Brew on

 

[RocketBrewer]

For those who kegged, what PSI are you serving at?

I'm keeping mine at about 17-18 psi (most I use 12psi). I used 15 ft of beer line instead of my usual 10 ft to try to control flow but could have easily gone to 20 I think. Foaming is still a little high, but I like the strong carbonation in this one.

 

[day_trippr]

The better question is how many volumes of CO2 are you carbonating/dispensing at?
Someone went with 4.15 and it exceeded the dispensing system's tuning by a lot, apparently even with 26' of Bevlex 200 3/16" tubing (iirc)...

Cheers!