Anyone brewing Brut IPA?

[cmac62]

Brew day is Sunday. I'll definitely pop back in when I have some notes. I'm sure there will be some. There really isn't a solid recipe out there right now that people are sharing. I've "frankensteined" this one together from multiple interviews, articles, and my own experience with biochemistry and industrial winemaking.

I need to get some of the enzymes, but I thought any clean base malt would work with little unfermentable sugars would work. This last week I did a kettle sour and used WL001, that yeast sure turned and burned. The airlock has almost stopped already. I'm thinking with the enzymes added this would be a good yeast to try.

 

[Madtown Lupe]

I need to get some of the enzymes, but I thought any clean base malt would work with little unfermentable sugars would work. This last week I did a kettle sour and used WL001, that yeast sure turned and burned. The airlock has almost stopped already. I'm thinking with the enzymes added this would be a good yeast to try.

So I had to source my enzyme from Amazon (Prime shipping, woo) because the local brew store only has alpha-amylase (only cleaves 1-4 bond). You need gamma-amylase to cleave both the 1-4 and 1-6 bonds). Both will work but smaller molecules = more fermentables for your yeasty bros.

 

[Madtown Lupe]

I found out this morning that the local brewery didn't use enzyme at all but instead picked a yeast strain (WLP007) that could dry the beer down more than normal. Their FG was 1.010. Interesting choice, but it leaves me with a question. If it's not 0.995-1.005, is it even a Brut? The style is characterized by the ultra-dryness.

 

[cheesebach]

I found out this morning that the local brewery didn't use enzyme at all but instead picked a yeast strain (WLP007) that could dry the beer down more than normal. Their FG was 1.010. Interesting choice, but it leaves me with a question. If it's not 0.995-1.005, is it even a Brut? The style is characterized by the ultra-dryness.

Yeah, I don’t see how that could be considered a Brut IPA by any stretch. Sounds like they didn’t do their research and just decide to slap a label on it that they thought would help it sell.

 

[bleme]

It sure seems like you could skip the added enzymes if you just used a diastatic saison yeast.

 

[doug293cz]

My Brut just hit about 0.995 yesterday (Tilt readings, so won't know exactly where it is until the hydro sample.) The Tilt data looks like it's flat lining now, so will dry hop and package in the next couple of days. I did a 90 min mash at 148°-150°F (no added enzymes in mash), and put ~3 ml of Amylo 300 in at yeast pitch. Took about 3.5 - 4 days to go from 1.053 to 0.995 using Imperial Flagship (Chico.)

If this comes out any good, I'll post the recipe.

Brew on

 

[Madtown Lupe]

It sure seems like you could skip the added enzymes if you just used a diastatic saison yeast.

The style is really clean, though. I'm not sure a saison yeast would retain a clean taste.

 

[cheesebach]

This short article/recipe from the inventor of the style was just posted and thought I'd share:

https://beerandbrewing.com/social-kitchen-and-brewery-brut-ipa-recipe/

Looks like Kim is now recommending to add enzyme during the mash only, rather than in fermentation. Another interesting takeaway is the dry hop: 7.5oz in a 5 gallon batch of 1.054 OG beer is quite a bit more than I would have guessed.

Edit: This seems to be the source of the information used for the recipe in the link above. A lot more detail/explanation along with the video interview can be found below:

https://beer47.com/brut-ipa-q-a-with-kim-sturdavant-28fd32b607

 

[bleme]

The style is really clean, though. I'm not sure a saison yeast would retain a clean taste.

"Styles" are for people with no imagination

 

[couchsending]

Mine was down to 0 today.. it only dropped .25 Plato over the last 1.5 days so I think it’s done. Dropped the temp to 58 for the week while I’m gone to see if I can get the yeast to flocc (which it doesn’t like to do) adding a big DH charge of Nelson when I get back.

 

[cmac62]

My lhbs had the White Labs enzyme mix (forgot what it is called) but the directions were to put it in the mash only. The one thing I did forget to do was add some nutrient. Is it necessary with a good sized starter for a 5 gal batch. It sure was weird not putting any hops in the boil. I used 1 oz Mosaic at FO, and I will be dry hopping with 3 oz of Mozaic once the yeast is done.

 

[Madtown Lupe]

Brewed my recipe yesterday. Updated and finalized version is attached. 12 hours after pitch, the airlock needed to be switched to a blow off. I think the enzyme worked, haha.

 

[radwizard]

It sure seems like you could skip the added enzymes if you just used a diastatic saison yeast.

I've kinda been thinking the same thing. If you pitched the yeast in stages, I would think that you could get it down to 0 (or close to).
I have used Belle to help me finish out Dupont, and I don't really pick up the Belle characteristics at all --- only the Dupont.
....And then factor in the 3 oz dry-hop

Anywhos, I think I am gonna brew a dry af IPA with Sac Trois, and finish it with French Saison, and see what its all about.
Cheers!

 

[couchsending]

If you’re using Saison yeast you’re just making a dry hopped Saison. If you want diastaticus yeast and no phenols use WLP099.

Or if you’re in Europe use the new HA-18 Fermentis yeast which has the enzymes built right into it. Don’t think it’s available in the US though.

 

[Madtown Lupe]

I've kinda been thinking the same thing. If you pitched the yeast in stages, I would think that you could get it down to 0 (or close to).
I have used Belle to help me finish out Dupont, and I don't really pick up the Belle characteristics at all --- only the Dupont.
....And then factor in the 3 oz dry-hop

Anywhos, I think I am gonna brew a dry af IPA with Sac Trois, and finish it with French Saison, and see what its all about.
Cheers!

Not sure, I agree with that. You're not going to be able to deal with the nonfermentable sugars without the enzyme to break them into glucose and fructose. Yeast can't process the large chain polysaccharides and starches, which add to the gravity. You probably won't get below 1.008.

 

[cmac62]

Not sure, I agree with that. You're not going to be able to deal with the nonfermentable sugars without the enzyme to break them into glucose and fructose. Yeast can't process the large chain polysaccharides and starches, which add to the gravity. You probably won't get below 1.008.

Don't know, but I have had beers finish at 1.000 or really close without using any enzymes. If you use a light colored base malt, and a good long mash there shouldn't be too many unfermentables to worry about. I'm looking forward to seeing how far my Brut will go with just Briss Pale malt, WL's Enzyme pack and WLP001. It was bubbling away within a couple of hours of pitching on Sunday afternoon and was still bubbling about every 3-4 seconds this a.m. When I left the house. I do know one thing, it will be beer and I'll be drinking it shortly.

 

[brew703]

Interested.
So what does a Brut IPA actually taste like? Never had one and no breweries in my area have announced they are working on one.

 

[Madtown Lupe]

Interested.
So what does a Brut IPA actually taste like? Never had one and no breweries in my area have announced they are working on one.

The creator, Kim Sturdavant has characterized it:

• “As pale as possible in color” (Usually involving the use of adjuncts)
• “It needs to be very dry … knock it below 1˚ Plato” and get it as close to zero as possible
• “It needs to be in balance and very good and tastes really good … a very hop forward IPA.”

Other stylistic things is a clean taste (use a nondescript ale yeast) and higher carbonation 2.5 to 3.2 volumes of CO2.

Reading material for you <3

• https://beer47.com/brut-ipa-q-a-with-kim-sturdavant-28fd32b607
  
• http://newtobrew.com/2018/06/21/brewing-a-brut-ipa-with-advice-from-professional-brewers/
  
• http://www.thebeerscholar.com/beer-...cisco-is-it-the-next-big-thing-how-to-make-it
  
• https://beerandbrewing.com/the-birt...ail&utm_source=autopilot&utm_content=brut-ipa

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Planning one for Thursday or Friday;
8lb Pilsen
1lb white wheat
1lb flaked rice
.5oz Rakau @ 5min
2oz Nelson WP
2oz Rakau WP
2.5 Nelson DH
2.5 Rakau DH
1.054og - ?.???fg
WLP007
Ferm Fast Glucoamylase towards end of fermentation or at the end of WP haven’t decided yet.

 

[radwizard]

Not sure, I agree with that. You're not going to be able to deal with the nonfermentable sugars without the enzyme to break them into glucose and fructose. Yeast can't process the large chain polysaccharides and starches, which add to the gravity. You probably won't get below 1.008.

You don't think that Belle or 3711 can finish out at 0 (or very close to)? What FG's have you experienced with them?

 

[stickyfinger]

You don't think that Belle or 3711 can finish out at 0 (or very close to)? What FG's have you experienced with them?

i think 3711 would be very close to zero with no enzymes if you mash for attenuation

 

[WiscoBrewer]

You don't think that Belle or 3711 can finish out at 0 (or very close to)? What FG's have you experienced with them?

3711 is a beast I’ve had it reach .098 before, let it get into the 80’s. But it’s full of phenols that will run all over this beer. It’ll end up a juicy, dry hopped saison for sure.

 

[Morrey]

Has anyone made the final conclusion when to pitch the glucoamylase? I think even the style originator is not certain of the perfect time. My SEBAmyl-GL says the product may denature if over 148F, so this is right about where I want to mash for a single infusion. I could certainly add during the mash with the risk of being at the edge of denaturing, and I also considered adding the enzyme after the boil and when I was cooling with the IC to go into fermenter. If 135F was the time of addition, the enzyme wont denature since the boil is done, but may not be super active due to the low temps below optimum in the FV.

So, with that said, when should I add enzymes....during mash, after the boil at 135F or BOTH?

 

[couchsending]

In the fermenter. Works every time

 

[WiscoBrewer]

In the fermenter. Works every time

They’ve done studies...it works 60% of the time...every time!

 

[cheesebach]

Has anyone made the final conclusion when to pitch the glucoamylase? I think even the style originator is not certain of the perfect time. My SEBAmyl-GL says the product may denature if over 148F, so this is right about where I want to mash for a single infusion. I could certainly add during the mash with the risk of being at the edge of denaturing, and I also considered adding the enzyme after the boil and when I was cooling with the IC to go into fermenter. If 135F was the time of addition, the enzyme wont denature since the boil is done, but may not be super active due to the low temps below optimum in the FV.

So, with that said, when should I add enzymes....during mash, after the boil at 135F or BOTH?

I think this is one of the fun aspects of brewing a new style - no one (even the creator of the style) really knows what is "best" yet, so it kind of encourages us to experiment with it more than we would with a more well understood style. Originally, I was leaning towards using enzyme in the fermenter at yeast pitch, since it seems most that have used it that way have no troubles hitting 1.000 or even below. Based on the anecdotal information out there, it seems adding enzyme seems to result in a little higher FG sometimes.

However, in the latest interview with Kim Sturdavant, it seems he is now speculating that adding in the fermenter may result in less desirable fermentation and hop characteristics (although it sounds like he also doesn't have a lot of data or controlled experiments to base this recommendation on yet). Also, I don't know whether he is basing this on adding the enzyme to the fermenter at pitch or after harvesting yeast a few days into fermentation - it's possible that freeing up those additional sugars late into fermentation has a different result than gradually adding them in throughout fermentation when you add the enzyme at yeast pitch.

I think my plan for this weekend is to mash-in @148, let the mash do it's thing for the first 20-30 minutes. By then, my mash temp should be getting down to 145-146 (I do full volume BIAB on propane with an insulated kettle), at which point I'll add the enzymes and let it rest for another 1 hour. Hopefully that's enough time to break everything down, but if not, I suppose I can always add the enzyme at the end of fermentation with some active yeast to "fix" it if I need to.

 

[cheesebach]

Does anyone think or have any experience to suggest that 1oz/gallon dry hop would be too much for this style? I've seen a few here have tried dry hops in the range of 3-4oz per 5 gallons, but the recipe shared by Kim surprised me with 7.5oz in a 5 gallon batch. I'm thinking I'll split the difference and go with a 5oz dry hop, but initially my thinking was this might be a tad too much for a 1.050-1.055 OG beer. Suppose I could start with 4 and see if I think it needs another dose...

 

[cactusgarrett]

My local joint does 8oz/5gal. I didn't want to go that big, and already suspect the 4oz I did caused this to haze up more than I'd like. I assumed diminished returns would be had and stuck with 4oz/5gal. Came out great.

 

[ryan13166]

I know it is to style to use the amylase enzyme, I have some being shipped out this week to give this style a shot but the thought occurred to me what about using a wine or champagne yeast that chews the hell out of your wort? Last time I used a Lalvin strain for a cider it went damn near completely dry and finished around 1.000 couldn't that possibly work for this and still remain in "brut guidelines" Not that I want to throw Lalvin in there on my first go but if experiment one goes well it might be worth it to do a side by side experiment brulosophy style

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The reason your cider went down to 1.000 was because apple juice is effectively 100% fermentable simple sugars, whereas the equivalent figure for wort might be 70%. In fact wine yeasts have very low attenuation in wort - since grape juice doesn't have less fermentable carbohydrates like maltotriose, they've not evolved the enzymes needed to chew maltotriose.

But if you've used amylase to chew up all the big carbohydrates into simple sugar, then it doesn't much matter whether the yeast is a good attenuator or not, as the job is easy. The only thing to watch is that many wine yeasts are POF+ so will produce "Belgian" phenolics in wort - wort has lots of the precursors that are processed by the "POF" enzymes, whereas grape juice doesn't have so much.

 

[ryan13166]

The reason your cider went down to 1.000 was because apple juice is effectively 100% fermentable simple sugars, whereas the equivalent figure for wort might be 70%. In fact wine yeasts have very low attenuation in wort - since grape juice doesn't have less fermentable carbohydrates like maltotriose, they've not evolved the enzymes needed to chew maltotriose.

But if you've used amylase to chew up all the big carbohydrates into simple sugar, then it doesn't much matter whether the yeast is a good attenuator or not, as the job is easy. The only thing to watch is that many wine yeasts are POF+ so will produce "Belgian" phenolics in wort - wort has lots of the precursors that are processed by the "POF" enzymes, whereas grape juice doesn't have so much.

Gotcha, I was thinking about the simple sugars in apple juice versus wort and that makes complete sense. The possible phenolics makes sense to me as well so I appreciate the reply.

On another note, what hop combination are you guys experimenting with? I have a decent variety that fit the style it is just deciding what I want use first. I think this will be a style I do quite a few variations with until I nail a flavor profile that seems to be perfect for my liking. I am visiting the bay area this weekend perhaps I will have to stop into one of the breweries currently serving the Brut style for proper "scientific inquiry"

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Gotcha, I was thinking about the simple sugars in apple juice versus wort and that makes complete sense. The possible phenolics makes sense to me as well so I appreciate the reply.

On another note, what hop combination are you guys experimenting with? I have a decent variety that fit the style it is just deciding what I want use first. I think this will be a style I do quite a few variations with until I nail a flavor profile that seems to be perfect for my liking. I am visiting the bay area this weekend perhaps I will have to stop into one of the breweries currently serving the Brut style for proper "scientific inquiry"

My first try will be Rakau and Nelson

 

[Morrey]

- it's possible that freeing up those additional sugars late into fermentation has a different result than gradually adding them in throughout fermentation when you add the enzyme at yeast pitch.

As you said, none of us have tons of conclusive evidence at this early stage of style development. Maybe we could do a small enzyme addition after lautering the BIAB grain basket...then the wort's temp will be in the safe zone. Maybe let it hang out at 135F for an hour or so, then boil which will denature. The results will be controlled or at least we can develop a feel for how much GL to pitch and what said amount does to the FG.

For another discussion, should we add another small enzyme pitch as we are cooling the wort post boil after the temps are cooled to the 135F range again? This would insure the enzymes had time to work but this may be an overkill, a waste of glucoamylase or potentially dry the beer out by getting FG too low. These results are not so controlled being the enzyme keeps working w/o denaturing.

I was going to brew a Brut last weekend but I wanted an additional week to see if any ideas were being spawned.

 

[ryan13166]

As you said, none of us have tons of conclusive evidence at this early stage of style development. Maybe we could do a small enzyme addition after lautering the BIAB grain basket...then the wort's temp will be in the safe zone. Maybe let it hang out at 135F for an hour or so, then boil which will denature. The results will be controlled or at least we can develop a feel for how much GL to pitch and what said amount does to the FG.

For another discussion, should we add another small enzyme pitch as we are cooling the wort post boil after the temps are cooled to the 135F range again? This would insure the enzymes had time to work but this may be an overkill, a waste of glucoamylase or potentially dry the beer out by getting FG too low. These results are not so controlled being the enzyme keeps working w/o denaturing.

That is a beautiful idea.. I think I may just start with the enzyme addition post lauter as mentioned just for the pure sake of collecting data and keeping it controlled. After all, there is always the option of adding more later on. It can spark some general discussion and overall understanding of this developing style. I should be brewing this up on Tuesday when I return from vacation, I will definitely post data from brew day and beyond

 

[couchsending]

I’ve used the AG300 enzyme a bunch.

In the fermenter every time.

It works like a champ.

Last beer with yeast that has never gone below 1.016 went to 1.000 in 4 days.

Stop overthinking it.

 

[Clef051]

i just brewed mine today I used the alpha amalyse, all eukanot hops added at 190 degrees. I used hornindal and voss kviek yeasts. Ten gallons split into 2 fermentors. Smells amazing so far. Og was 1.063.

 

[couchsending]

Did a little more research on AG300. It can be used in the mash and fermenter but it is most effective at lower PH than mash PH so it’s ideal to add it after the initial PH drop in the FV.

 

[brew703]

Been reading what I can find about this style. The one constant is Pilsner Malt makes up majority of grist. Some use a combo of flaked rice and corn and some use white wheat and acid malt.

This is what I put together. Thoughts?
83.3% Pilsner
8.3% Flaked Corn
8.3% Flaked Rice

.25 oz Warrior @ 15 << may eliminate
1.25 oz ea of Mosaic & Citra WP for 20-30 min
2 oz ea of Mosaic & Citra DH
(See note 1 below)

Yeast: US05 or Notty (See note2 below)

Enzyme added after fermentation
Yeast nutrient added @ 10 min left of boil

Note 1:Also considering Amarillo or Hallertau Blanc Hops. Maybe go with Citra and Hallertau Blanc in place of Mosaic. Thoughts?

Note 2: Not set on yeast but needs to be dry yeast. Maybe Mangrove Jack Liberty Bell M36 or Mangrove Jack West Coast M44

Water profile: light profile

 

[Morrey]

Did a little more research on AG300. It can be used in the mash and fermenter but it is most effective at lower PH than mash PH so it’s ideal to add it after initial PH drop in the FV.

You bring up a good point - one in which I have never tested actually. I typically target 5.25 for my optimal mash ph. Being that I read SEBAmyl-GL best works at 5.0 or below, I did consider that aspect of our enzyme addition.

So when wort is added to the FV and fermentation begins, when does ph begin dropping and how much? This I have never tested.

Since ph works best for the enzyme at or a bit under 5.0, how would it work to add a bit of lactic to the wort as we bring the temps down to yeast pitching temps? Then add the enzymes at 135F, continue cooling and pump wort to fermenter when cooled to proper temps.

Do you see any issues acidifying the wort at this point? I do it with Gose beers all the time and the yeast works fine...maybe add some yeast nutrients which is advised anyway. I don't think lowering .5 ph is going to be detectable to ruin the taste?

 

[Morrey]

Been reading what I can find about this style. The one constant is Pilsner Malt makes up majority of grist. Some use a combo of flaked rice and corn and some use white wheat and acid malt.

This is what I put together. Thoughts?
83.3% Pilsner
8.3% Flaked Corn
8.3% Flaked Rice

.25 oz Warrior @ 15 << may eliminate
1.25 oz ea of Mosaic & Citra WP for 20-30 min
2 oz ea of Mosaic & Citra DH
(See note 1 below)

Yeast: US05 or Notty (See note2 below)

Enzyme added after fermentation
Yeast nutrient added @ 10 min left of boil

Note 1:Also considering Amarillo or Hallertau Blanc Hops. Maybe go with Citra and Hallertau Blanc in place of Mosaic. Thoughts?

Note 2: Not set on yeast but needs to be dry yeast. Maybe Mangrove Jack Liberty Bell M36 or Mangrove Jack West Coast M44

Water profile: light profile

I'm pretty much with you on this as I too am designing my recipe heading towards brew day this Saturday.

I'll go with 8# Pils and 2# flaked maize since I have some on hand. Flaked or minute rice will be fine too, but I think I'll skip the wheat on this one as we might get a bit of protein haze from that addition. My goal is clear beer, so I'll use whirlfloc in the boil and that should probably clear it ok.

Think I'll do my first hop in the WP (20 min) so will be the first time I've never added any hops at all while boiling. I'll use Hallertau Blanc for this and will add in some Amarillo for the taste profiles I enjoy. I'll finish the hop additions with a dry hop of Nelson Sauvin along with a touch more Amarillo in the FV after FG has stabilized.

I'll use US-05 for this one as I have plenty...plus yeast nutrients.

Probably go a bit heavier on SO4 than Cl for a dryer, more hop forward profile. The downside of this (and one I am concerned with) is that with too little Cl we may lose some of the mouthfeel that is needed.

Anyway....plans are developing so its time to make some decisions on my end.

Not sure when to add the glucoamylase yet...still in the research mode here.