Anyone brewing Brut IPA?

[Morrey]

As we forge ahead with a relatively new process to most homebrewers, we seem to have areas of discovery ahead. As @doug293cz questioned (paraphrasing him), how do we know or predict what level of dryness an enzyme will take us if we just added in the mash and denatured afterward? Is there a way to predict or a certain amount to use??

My final FG is .997. This is dry for sure. With cider this low, I add sorbate and do some back sweetening. @doug293cz suggested to consider blending another beer of similar qualities with a higher FG. I like this idea, and @cheesebach made other good points to consider.

I mashed at 148F for 90 minutes. Stirred at the 30 minute mark and temp was at 146.5F (safe zone) so I added 2 ml AMYL-GL. NOTES: Higher than my normal mash conversion efficiency, also, expected 1.050 and got 1.056. Was this a result of the enzyme? Then on to the boil at 90 min which denatured the enzyme.

Question: Is there any way I could "predict" my FG with a controlled dosage of enzyme followed by denaturing?

However, I kept going with the enzyme. After the boil, WP and hopping, I dropped temps down to 130F and added 3 ml more AMYL-GL. This addition never got denatured as it went into FV and remained to work the entire time in FV. NOTE: 5ml of enzyme is the suggested total dosage so I split it between the mash and then the FV.

Should I only add into the mash? How much? How do I predict other than experience?

 

[couchsending]

Isn’t the goal for this style total dryness? Do you think you could tell the difference between 1.000 and .997?

Obviously If you were to blend something it would have to be cold the whole time or the enzyme would just east those additional sugars as well.

I’d just try adding it to the mash next time and see what you get. I added it to the FV but only got to 1.000 but I also chose a yeast that generally doesn’t attenuate that well. Not 100% sure if that had anything to do with it or not.

Maybe adding a high glycerol producing Saison yeast at a certain gravity would help to add a little body. Not sure what you’d get in the way of phenols if added at a certain attenuation. In my experience 566 produces a lot of glycerol and it’s more fruity than overly phenolic.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I just worked on a brut recipe with a local brewery. They just added the enzyme powder a couple days into fermentation (likely high krausen) of 30gal and noted that it just went nuts and foamed out, probably blowing out most of the powder added- likely due to the powder creating a ton of nucleation sites for the CO2.

So for reference: watch out for THAT.

 

[Morrey]

Isn’t the goal for this style total dryness? Do you think you could tell the difference between 1.000 and .997?

Obviously If you were to blend something it would have to be cold the whole time or the enzyme would just east those additional sugars as well.

I’d just try adding it to the mash next time and see what you get. I added it to the FV but only got to 1.000 but I also chose a yeast that generally doesn’t attenuate that well. Not 100% sure if that had anything to do with it or not.

Maybe adding a high glycerol producing Saison yeast at a certain gravity would help to add a little body. Not sure what you’d get in the way of phenols if added at a certain attenuation. In my experience 566 produces a lot of glycerol and it’s more fruity than overly phenolic.

Sure, the "style" of Brut IPA is definitely looking to achieve a level of brut dryness for sure. To be honest, I took a sample at 1.000 and I thought this is going to be nice. A follow up sample at .997 seems to be a small yet discernable difference. It may be possible that I had subliminally determined anything below 1.000 was going to be too dry, so factor that into the equation. This may not be possible, but I would like to control the FG between 1.000 and 1.002. Is this possible? Or splitting hairs?

I'm heading in the direction of adding enzyme into the mash only and see what I come up with. Adding into the FV gives the enzyme an open invitation to do whatever it chooses, and in essence, we lose control of the end result. I think I'll try adding enzymes in the mash, then I'll experiment with the amount of enzyme and the length of time prior to denaturing.

A work in progress...

 

[TravelingLight]

Fellas, I brewed this one Sunday morning...

42% 2-Row
42% Pils
16% Flaked Corn (first time using flaked corn, looked like corn flakes in the bag!)

0.5oz Nugget @FWH
1.5oz each Citra/El Dorado @WP (20m, 160*)

1.5oz each Citra/El Dorado @DH1
1.5oz each Citra/El Dorado @DH2

US-05

Mashed at 148, 1 hour. Boiled 1 hour (I never boil pils longer than 60m)

OG: 1.052

I used the FermFast glucoamylase, 10g in the package. I added 3g during my sparge (sparged with room temp water, so temps not an issue). Then I proceeded with the boil and whirlpool, and added the remainder of the package during chilling once my temps hit about 130*. Chilling is painfully slow for me, so it got good contact time in the kettle, and then carried through to the fermenter. Hit it with oxygen, pitched two packs of 05. Got some nice krausen Monday morning. Added my first dry hop last night. Even though this is not a New England, I've been becoming more and more pleased with early dry hopping for biotrans. And then the second dry hop either at the end of fermentation about 48 hours before crashing and kegging, OR I'll do the second dry hop in the keg. Haven't decided yet. Holy cow this was definitely the palest wort I've ever brewed. I'm a little anxious about the enzyme I used. It says one package is plenty for a 5 gal batch. I'm just anxious because I only added about 2/3 of the packet post-boil (the 3g I added earlier were obviously denatured in the boil). But I suppose I could always add more to the fermenter if necessary. I'm fermenting this one in my Fermonster, with a spigot, so I can easily take hydro samples without opening it up. I guess I'll watch gravity and see how it's progressing?

 

[Morrey]

Fellas, I brewed this one Sunday morning...

42% 2-Row
42% Pils
16% Flaked Corn (first time using flaked corn, looked like corn flakes in the bag!)

0.5oz Nugget @FWH
1.5oz each Citra/El Dorado @WP (20m, 160*)

1.5oz each Citra/El Dorado @DH1
1.5oz each Citra/El Dorado @DH2

US-05

Mashed at 148, 1 hour. Boiled 1 hour (I never boil pils longer than 60m)

OG: 1.052

I used the FermFast glucoamylase, 10g in the package. I added 3g during my sparge (sparged with room temp water, so temps not an issue). Then I proceeded with the boil and whirlpool, and added the remainder of the package during chilling once my temps hit about 130*. Chilling is painfully slow for me, so it got good contact time in the kettle, and then carried through to the fermenter. Hit it with oxygen, pitched two packs of 05. Got some nice krausen Monday morning. Added my first dry hop last night. Even though this is not a New England, I've been becoming more and more pleased with early dry hopping for biotrans. And then the second dry hop either at the end of fermentation about 48 hours before crashing and kegging, OR I'll do the second dry hop in the keg. Haven't decided yet. Holy cow this was definitely the palest wort I've ever brewed. I'm a little anxious about the enzyme I used. It says one package is plenty for a 5 gal batch. I'm just anxious because I only added about 2/3 of the packet post-boil (the 3g I added earlier were obviously denatured in the boil). But I suppose I could always add more to the fermenter if necessary. I'm fermenting this one in my Fermonster, with a spigot, so I can easily take hydro samples without opening it up. I guess I'll watch gravity and see how it's progressing?

I'll be most interested in your FG based on your enzyme usage. So, with your enzyme pitching plan, does the amount of enzyme used help us to control what we get for a Final Gravity?

 

[TravelingLight]

I'll be most interested in your FG based on your enzyme usage. So, with your enzyme pitching plan, does the amount of enzyme used help us to control what we get for a Final Gravity?

No clue. But I don't really mind at this point. I want it as dry as possible (1.000 or lower) for this first one. Then I'll adjust in the future if need be.

 

[Morrey]

No clue. But I don't really mind at this point. I want it as dry as possible (1.000 or lower) for this first one. Then I'll adjust in the future if need be.

Mine finished at .997 which is pretty darn dry. Point being, is there any control we can exercise over the FG?

I will probably be just fine with this beer as is...just interested to know what influences we as brewers have over the FG when using glucoamylase.

 

[Eltes]

I'll be most interested in your FG based on your enzyme usage. So, with your enzyme pitching plan, does the amount of enzyme used help us to control what we get for a Final Gravity?

I does not, as long as it is not denatured. The amount will only affect how long it takes to get there. Enzymes catalyze specific chemical reactions, and (as catalysts) are not consumed in the reaction. Once the enzyme is added, the only thing affected by the amount is the rate at which the reaction occurs, that is, the time it takes for all the larger sugars to become fermentable. The rate will also be affected by pH, temperature, and several other factors I'm sure. The only way to stop the enzyme is (as discussed above) to denature it.

 

[Morrey]

I does not, as long as it is not denatured. The amount will only affect how long it takes to get there. Enzymes catalyze specific chemical reactions, and (as catalysts) are not consumed in the reaction. Once the enzyme is added, the only thing affected by the amount is the rate at which the reaction occurs, that is, the time it takes for all the larger sugars to become fermentable. The rate will also be affected by pH, temperature, and several other factors I'm sure. The only way to stop the enzyme is (as discussed above) to denature it.

I'm developing a second Brut along with an additional enzyme pitching strategy. My plan is to add the entire enzyme addition in the 90 minute mash: Mash in at 148F, cover and rest, then uncover and stir at the 30 minutes mark where I should be at 146.5F. Pitch 4 ml enzyme and let work 60 more minutes before lautering and boiling. This will denature, so I'll take notes and see how this strategy impacts my FG. If I am too high I'll add more enzyme next time, and if too low, add less.

Thanks for the info!!

 

[couchsending]

If your gravity ends a little high you can always add more enzymes at the end. I’ve actually naturally carbonated a beer doing this instead of adding sugar. It was just a small experiment that I kept cold in a keg but it did turn out great. Wouldn’t do it with bottles unless it was thick glass.

 

[TravelingLight]

Just FYI, for anyone using the FermFast Glucoamylase (10g)...I did 3g during my sparge (batch sparge with room temp water, so temps were not an issue), then I added the remainder of the enzyme during chilling once the wort was at/below 130*. Pitched US-05. Dropped from 1.052 to 0.999 in 3 days. Monster.

 

[isomerization]

Just FYI, for anyone using the FermFast Glucoamylase (10g)...I did 3g during my sparge (batch sparge with room temp water, so temps were not an issue), then I added the remainder of the enzyme during chilling once the wort was at/below 130*. Pitched US-05. Dropped from 1.052 to 0.999 in 3 days. Monster.
View attachment 581827

Tasting notes?

 

[ryan13166]

View attachment 581508For those of you that are using this 10g pack, how much did you add for 5 gallons? Also did you just mix it with warm water? I plan on adding it to the fermentor.

I added the entire packet as fermentation started slowing around day 3, waited a few days and FG was right on the dot at 1.000
added a 3oz hop charge waited 3 days FG hadn't changed
cold crashed 2 days
kegged w/ 40psi for 24 hours
reduced to serving pressure yesterday
Ill draw a pint tonight and report back

EDIT: I added the packet dry and gave the FV a swirl, used US-05

 

[TravelingLight]

Tasting notes?

Stand by! I didn't get to taste the hydro sample the other day, I was in a hurry and it was full of trub and hops. I'm transferring to a dry hop keg this weekend and will taste then.

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Kegging mine right now, damn is it friggin dry. I hate to say but I might not like this style too much...we’ll see after carbonation. I’ll be hitting it with the QuickCarb shortly.

 

[dschiller]

The glucoamylase is the one that will chop dextrins down to glucose that the yeast can eat. Alpha amylase cannot chop up dextrins. It's the elimination of dextrins that enables the very low FG's in a Brut, since dextrins are not fermentable.

Brew on

https://drinkdrakes.com/what-weve-learned-brewing-extra-brut-ipa/

You should be able to use either, right? According to the above, Kim Sturdavant’s advice is to add amylase enzymes to the fermenter (although I also read that he puts it in the mash). I ordered the alpha amylase to use in a week when I try this for the first time, so I’m hoping it will work. Perhaps the main difference is how long it will take to convert all the remaining sugars?

Oh...I just realized he didn’t say to use alpha amylase. In fact he says he uses:
Amylo[emoji769] 300, which is an amyloglucosidase enzyme.

I just ordered the Fermfast glucoamylase and I’ll save the alpha amylase for making bread.

 

[ryan13166]

Ok, I have been drinking on the keg all weekend. The dryness is interesting for sure, I wasn't sold on it at first but now that it has had a week or so in the keg I am really starting to enjoy it. I wouldn't say it is exactly quaffable, but it is deceptively strong.. I'll put back two of these pretty quick because they are so light and crisp, stand up and feel it. I do like the concept of a lower OG still resulting in a 7+% beer. Because of the higher carb levels, I am keeping my fridge around 35F which does seem to mute the flavors of the hops slightly. I didn't do two dry hop charges in the fermenter and next time I definitely will.. I think I might just toss a few oz in the keg and see if that increases aroma. I did a 3 part combo with Bravo, Mosaic, & Cascade. Overall the hop flavor is good but a little light I would like to bring it up a bit in the future.
Hop schedule looked as follows:
Bravo 0.5oz @20
B, M, C WP (1oz each)
B, M, C DH on Day 4 (1oz each)

Aroma: Definitely a hoppiness, some citrus and the slightest hint of tropical fruit
Taste: Super crisp, definitely get the cascade citrus and similar to the aroma a slight fruity backbone. You can definitely get that it is dry, but by no means is it off putting. I definitely understand why some call it "hop champagne" but I must say I like the brut a hell of a lot more than champagne..

This is quite decent and I am curious how it will age while drinking. I would definitely like to keep experimenting with this style and surely will

 

[cheesebach]

I was finally able to get my first attempt at this style going last night, and the yeast are happily chugging along. When I went to add the Ultra-Ferm, I noticed something odd on the back (see picture) - in the "Temperature" section next to ultra-ferm is says "Up to 185F (85C)". From everything I've read, this enzyme would denature very quickly at temperatures that high, assuming it is actually amyloglucosidase as White Labs claims. Does anyone know what is meant by this? I'm expecting everything will turn out fine, but this struck me as odd so I wanted to see whether anyone knew why White Labs would list such a high temperature for this product? I'm using it in the fermenter, so obviously nowhere near 185F, but still curious.

 

[brew703]

I brewed my version this past Friday. Fermentation is still going but not as strong as Saturday night through yesterday. I'll probably take a gravity sample Saturday or Sunday and if close or at 1.000 I'll add my dry hops (citra & mosaic).
Getting a little anxious to see how this turns out.

 

[jaymosbeershack]

Just added some enzyme to my mash. Officially brewing a style i've never tasted. Gonna split off a gallon and add some peaches, aim for a beer bellini. Thanks everyone in this thread for all the info

 

[TravelingLight]

I kegged mine last week and am drinking it now (well, not right now). I like it. It's dangerously chuggable at 7.1%. But I don't know yet if I love it. I think I want more hops in the nose. I did a double dry hop with 3oz in each dry hop (and a 3oz whirlpool in the kettle).

 

[WiscoBrewer]

Brewing this today;
6gallons
80% Pilsen
10% White Wheat
10% Flaked Rice
5 IBU Rakau @ 5min
2oz Rakau WP @ 165 (10IBU)
2oz Nelson WP @ 165 (10IBU)
2-2.5oz Rakau DH
2-2.5oz Nelson DH
WLP007 @ 65f
1.054OG-1.000

Didn’t clear up and didn’t like it much at first, but after sitting a cpl weeks it’s fantastic!

 

[ProblemChild]

joining to follow - had my first Brut IPA last Wednesday. Fantastic.

 

[cactusgarrett]

View attachment 583623

Didn’t clear up and didn’t like it much at first, but after sitting a cpl weeks it’s fantastic!

Same. Mine was better a week or two after first tapped. I had troubles clearing mine up as well - chalking that up to the large dry hop charge.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

For those whose heads are spinning at all this talk of 1-4 and 1-6, there's a nice explanation of all the various enzymes in wort from p25 of this new MSc thesis from Tom Shellhammer's lab which is mostly looking at enzyme activity in hops.

 

[stickyfinger]

did a split batch brut ipa. added enzymes to the wort when it was chilled to 135ish after boil for like 30-60 mins. went from around 1.050 to around 1.0001. one had huell mellon in the dry hop and one had mosaic/ctz. both are very nice. i don't really get a super dry character though. i would think they are maybe 1.010 from tasting them. weird. i did like 150 ppm sulfate with minimal bittering.

 

[cheesebach]

My first brut is getting kegged tomorrow - it's crash cooling now and already carbonated about 90% of the way, so I should be able to get my first taste this weekend. Mashed at 152F, added enzyme to the fermenter at 8 hours after pitch and went from 1.055 to 0.999 (as measured by my Tilt - will take a "real" reading tomorrow). It took about 6 days to finally get there though - it was at 1.008 at 72 hours in and then slowly made its way down to 0.999 over the next 3 days. Went Mosaic/Nelson/Citra for whirlpool and dry hop with just the tiniest bittering charge at 15min in the boil. I haven't found anyone here in Austin making a legitimate "Brut" yet, so this will be my first experience tasting one and not to sure what to expect. Good or bad - it will be interesting and I'll learn something new!

 

[brew703]

My first brut is getting kegged tomorrow - it's crash cooling now and already carbonated about 90% of the way, so I should be able to get my first taste this weekend. Mashed at 152F, added enzyme to the fermenter at 8 hours after pitch and went from 1.055 to 0.999 (as measured by my Tilt - will take a "real" reading tomorrow). It took about 6 days to finally get there though - it was at 1.008 at 72 hours in and then slowly made its way down to 0.999 over the next 3 days. Went Mosaic/Nelson/Citra for whirlpool and dry hop with just the tiniest bittering charge at 15min in the boil. I haven't found anyone here in Austin making a legitimate "Brut" yet, so this will be my first experience tasting one and not to sure what to expect. Good or bad - it will be interesting and I'll learn something new!

I'm in the same boat. I will be kegging mine today. First taste might be Sunday. Finished at .997. Never had a Brut IPA so this will be the first. Sample tasted pretty good so have high hopes.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Andreas Krennmair on Reinheitsgebot-compliant (ie enzyme-free) Brut brewing

https://dafteejit.com/2018/08/the-theory-of-brewing-reinheitsgebot-compliant-brut-ipa/

It's interesting he mentions WLP644 and WLP026 Premium Bitter Ale as possible POF- diastaticus strains. Suregork found a STA1 gene in WLP026 but White Labs make no mention of it as a diastaticus risk (which is something they're quite hot on these days) and list its attenuation at 70-75% which suggests the STA1 is not active.

 

[Miraculix]

Andreas Krennmair on Reinheitsgebot-compliant (ie enzyme-free) Brut brewing

https://dafteejit.com/2018/08/the-theory-of-brewing-reinheitsgebot-compliant-brut-ipa/

It's interesting he mentions WLP644 and WLP026 Premium Bitter Ale as possible POF- diastaticus strains. Suregork found a STA1 gene in WLP026 but White Labs make no mention of it as a diastaticus risk (which is something they're quite hot on these days) and list its attenuation at 70-75% which suggests the STA1 is not active.

Interesting. I'll bet taking out a portion of the wort after five to ten minutes and rapidly chilling it down would work best.

Would be good to know how much of the raw wort would be necessary to provide a sufficient amount of enzymes.

 

[Dangeruss]

Northern Brewer has a kit if anybody is into those
http://e.northernbrewer.com/public/...fhexy9j4/0be203eb000000000000000000000006ac3d

 

[stickyfinger]

my hall blanc is weird. i think i overdid the dryhop. 1 oz/gal. maybe it will age well. it’s just a very unique hop flavor!

 

[cheesebach]

How low can you go? Looks like there’s no stopping this enzyme when you give it a week or more to work in the fermenter. The temp-corrected reading for the sample below is actually 0.996 so not quite as low as it looks, but the OG of 1.055 puts this one at 7.7%. This was the sample from the fermenter, so I’ll have to wait a few more days for a real taste, but my first impression was that it wasn’t necessarily sweet, but also not that dry. Gonna have to be careful with this one...

 

[jomebrew]

I kegged and carbonated my version inspired by the Social Kitchen recipe. I used a generic amylase enzyme from BSG. I will definitely do this again.

Below is my recipe and brew notes.

** I used rice extract instead of flaked rice as my LHS didn't have flaked rice.

6.6% ABV
60 IBU

Really happy with the result. I am not sure I would like it as much with a lower final gravity.

Amt              Name                                             Type          #          %/IBU 
10 lbs           BEST Pale Ale (BESTMALZ) (3.0 SRM)               Grain         1          83.3 % 
1 lbs            Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM)                           Grain         2          8.3 % 
1 lbs            Rice, Flaked (1.0 SRM)                           Grain         3          8.3 %    
0.17 oz          Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 15.0 min       Hop           4          3.8 IBUs    
2.50 oz          Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Steep/Whirlpool  60 Hop           5          56.0 IBUs 
0.55 tsp         Amylase Enzyme (Primary 3.0 days)                Other         6          -   
4.00 oz          Northern Brewer [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days      Hop           7          0.0 IBUs 
3.00 oz          Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days    Hop           8          0.0 IBUs 


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 12 lbs
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time    
Mash In           Add 15.00 qt of water at 153.3 F        143.0 F       75 min      

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 1.16gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:
------
7/28/2018  Slow, lazy brew day
12:00 Mash in ~6G ~156F Strike
mash temp ~146m  Added .5 tsp enzymes
no vorlauf, drain into hop screen slowly then opened her up
2:15 Boil started
3:00 .5 oz mosaic
3:10 whirlfloc
3:05 whirlpool started
    10oz rice extract
3:15 2.75 oz mosaic
3:51 done
  added dry yeast
  added clarity ferm
  wort apprx 66f
Put carboy in a bucket in the shade with ice
Wort at 63F around 6 when I got home.

In fermentation fridge temp controller set at 65f

7/29 AM slight activity
7/79 PM lots of activity
7/30 still strong
8/2 raised temp to 67f from 65F for diacetyl rest
8/4 lowered temp to 65
   added 4 oz Nothern Brewer
   Added 2 oz mosaic
   added 1/3 tsp enzymes
8/9 Dropped temp to 55 over next 2 days
8/11 kegged, CO2 at 30PSI
   final gravity 1.003
8/13 off CO2.

Has strong citrus; orange; flavors. Dryness is perfect.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Can anyone comment on 1-4 enzyme vs 1-4 + 1-6 enzyme with regard to FG and body & flavor differences?

I bought some 1-4 enzyme hoping to dry out a beer (it's at 1.004 without enzyme) and I'm wondering if I should spring for something else.

 

[doug293cz]

Can anyone comment on 1-4 enzyme vs 1-4 + 1-6 enzyme with regard to FG and body & flavor differences?

I bought some 1-4 enzyme hoping to dry out a beer (it's at 1.004 without enzyme) and I'm wondering if I should spring for something else.

The 1-4 enzyme will not reduce limit dextrins to fermentable sugars, so you will not get the maximum "dryness" or lowest FG.

That said, my 0.996 FG brut had more body and mouthfeel than I expected. I assume that it is all due to the late/dry hops.

Brew on

 

[jaymosbeershack]

Got mine carbed to 16 psi so far(working toward 20) fg was 1.001. The first sample is quite good. Cant wait to try it at 3.2 volumes

 

[Cede]

I did not try this new style yet but I find it interesting and reading the recipes and comments is tempting.

I have the amylases as I use them for some other beverages and I think I will try a mash whisky style and see where it goes.

 

[jaymosbeershack]

Fully carbed and i love it. The Azacca almost gives it a mimosa character. Nice and dry, but not astringent. Cant wait for the next batch.