Any Lallemand Philly Sour feedback or experience to share?

[Kickass]

@DuncB, heres my recipe for the non-mango half, 5gal batch:

5lb pils
3lb wheat malt

.55oz cascade @45min
.45oz amarillo @45min
1oz amarillo @10min

1oz amarillo whirlpool @170* for 20min

.5oz amarillo dry hop for 5 days

Fermented at an ambient temp of 70*

 

[DuncB]

@Kickass

Thanks
I used 5.4 kg Pilsner
1 kg Maris Otter
0.8 kg Wheat Malt
0.165 Sour grapes malt

1 oz each Mandarina, Zythos, Citra in whirlpool at 185 falling to 170 then repeated.

Dry hopping in 2 doses of 1 oz each Mandarina, Citra and El dorado first after krausen drops then second after ferment finish and cooled to 14 celsius for a further 3 days.

Fermenting at 25.5 celsius, now 16 hours in fluffy white throthy krausen.

Will see how it goes.

 

[drpepper517]

Made an excellent sour with the Philly

BIAB so estimated around 70% efficiency, plus we ran out of gas halfway through boil and broke our hydrometer .Excellent beer for such a disastrous brew day:

20L batch (about 23.5L into fermenter due to lack of boiloff)

3.7 kg Weyermann Pale
.8kg Wheat Malt
.25kg Acidulated

Mash @ 66C for 60 min.

Boil 60 min with 30g Mandarina Bavaria at 60 min

Dry hop with 60g Azaaca and 30g Mosaic

2 packets of Philly Sour fermented at 20C fermented for 10 days

Estimated OG around 1.040, got to 1.008, 4.2%

Bottled with 165g dextrose and let carb up for 3 weeks. It was a hit!

 

[Kabezullo]

tomorrow doing a red philly sour, based on the recipe posted from mike mad fermentationist.
will use first philly sour and then some bottle dregs.
some opinion about look for brett lacto pedio and more? or look just brett ?
my question is because lacto and pedio from dregs will maybe increase the sourness of the final beer, and only brett will help for a more complex beer.
someone try something like that¡?

 

[DuncB]

Well my pH hit 3.4 at the end of ferment, I fermented at 26 until pH was 3.6 and then threw in the kveik yeast and bumped to 33 celsius. Now on second dry hop, clearing already and under pressure will fine and crash cool on day 5 of second dry hop. Will update, was certainly sour at tasting and gravity had finished at 1.009

 

[ThatVideoKid]

tomorrow doing a red philly sour, based on the recipe posted from mike mad fermentationist.
will use first philly sour and then some bottle dregs.
some opinion about look for brett lacto pedio and more? or look just brett ?
my question is because lacto and pedio from dregs will maybe increase the sourness of the final beer, and only brett will help for a more complex beer.
someone try something like that¡?

My only question is: why use Philly sour if you’re going to add bottle dregs? If I was to do it, I’d just go brett so I don’t have to deal with the potential for the very long aging time pedio often needs.

 

[Drewch]

My only question is: why use Philly sour if you’re going to add bottle dregs? If I was to do it, I’d just go brett so I don’t have to deal with the potential for the very long aging time pedio often needs.

That's a good point --- the raison d'être of PhillySour is avoiding the need to mess around with bacteria.

 

[Kabezullo]

My only question is: why use Philly sour if you’re going to add bottle dregs? If I was to do it, I’d just go brett so I don’t have to deal with the potential for the very long aging time pedio often needs.

my idea is to do a relatively quick sour, but looking for more complexity that with philly sour is difficult to get. apart from that, here in argentina is not common to find fresh bottles of unpasteurized sour beers. i think that not fresh dregs will not be enough to ferment a 5 gallons batch. maybe i am wrong and every post is very helpful for me-

 

[ThatVideoKid]

my idea is to do a relatively quick sour, but looking for more complexity that with philly sour is difficult to get. apart from that, here in argentina is not common to find fresh bottles of unpasteurized sour beers. i think that not fresh dregs will not be enough to ferment a 5 gallons batch. maybe i am wrong and every post is very helpful for me-

If quick is your goal, only use dregs will brett with your Philly sour. Brett can taste good quickly. Pedio sometimes can, but other times it’ll be a diacetyl Bomb or get ropey and require a year+ to be drinkable.

 

[Kabezullo]

If quick is your goal, only use dregs will brett with your Philly sour. Brett can taste good quickly. Pedio sometimes can, but other times it’ll be a diacetyl Bomb or get ropey and require a year+ to be drinkable.

i am not in a hurry but i want to try with the speed of philly sour to acidify and look for some complexity with brett. with another batch (safale be 134 saison with femme fatale evil twins dreg) have a good experience, 4 months on secundary and improve good flavors.
thanks for all and will tell how it goes !

 

[Thrashos]

Anyone has experience with tolerance to heat (pitching too hot) on Philly Sour? My brewing buddy thought it was lactobacillus and pitched at 90°F (32°c)...

10Gal batch split in 2, and 2 packs per 5Gal fermenter. One of the fermenter showed big activity after half an hour so pretty much no lag time which I understand is unusual for that strain (I'm afraid that it goes down as quick as it started...) and the other hasen't started yet, but it was also less oxygenated. It's at room temp (74°F right now, will probably drop a bit more in a few hours);, should reach 77°F by middle of the night or tomorrow morning. more or less.

Should I wait and see? I still got a couple 11g packs in the fridge planned for another brew.

 

[Drewch]

. . . Should I wait and see? . . .

I'd say give it time and see how it goes. It might be fine, and (as long as you have good sanitation and there aren't any other bugs in there) it's unlikely to get any worse. You can always pitch more yeast later.

 

[DuncB]

I've only done one but, pitched at 26 and held there. Watch the pH, mine dropped pretty steady until day 5 when 3.6. Not much Krausen with the philly.
Should give the best indication that the philly yeast is working and not a bug.

I then pitched some kveik dried out laerdal, but not totally sure it worked but I did bump temp to 33 and it fully attenuated and final pH was 3.4.

Not sure whether this was the philly sour continuing or the kveik.

 

[Thrashos]

I definitely have krausen on both fermenters, will probably do a pH check in a couple days or so.

 

[beervoid]

I fermented around 28c without problems.

 

[JTOVERMOHLE]

Conan the Rhubarbarian Rhubarb Sour using Philly Sour

 

[DuncB]

Tart and Sour philly sour and kveik IPA.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Anyone has experience with tolerance to heat (pitching too hot) on Philly Sour? My brewing buddy thought it was lactobacillus and pitched at 90°F (32°c)...

Remember that although we typically ferment Saccharomyces at 15-20°C, that's only to reduce off-flavours. It actually grows best at around 30°C, and can survive up to 40°C or so, although it varies from strain to strain. So there's a big difference between recommended fermentation temperatures and what a yeast can survive, particularly for a short while. Remember that in the wild, they have to survive the summer on a grapevine or fruit tree which in the Mediterranean might go up to 40°C, whilst waiting for the cooler temperatures of autumn when the fruit is ripe.

So don't assume that pitching warm will kill everything. On the other hand, Lachancea is generally a cold-adapted genus, there's a reason that the species used for brewing is L. thermotolerans!!! So if the recommendation is to ferment it at 20°C then it should survive 30-35°C for short periods but I would get nervous above that, or that temperature for prolonged amounts of time, you may get off-flavours or funny behaviour like not producing acid, or producing lots of acid.

Anyway, it sounds like it's worked for you, just thought it was worth noting the above for future reference.

 

[Thrashos]

Remember that although we typically ferment Saccharomyces at 15-20°C, that's only to reduce off-flavours. It actually grows best at around 30°C, and can survive up to 40°C or so, although it varies from strain to strain. So there's a big difference between recommended fermentation temperatures and what a yeast can survive, particularly for a short while. Remember that in the wild, they have to survive the summer on a grapevine or fruit tree which in the Mediterranean might go up to 40°C, whilst waiting for the cooler temperatures of autumn when the fruit is ripe.

So don't assume that pitching warm will kill everything. On the other hand, Lachancea is generally a cold-adapted genus, there's a reason that the species used for brewing is L. thermotolerans!!! So if the recommendation is to ferment it at 20°C then it should survive 30-35°C for short periods but I would get nervous above that, or that temperature for prolonged amounts of time, you may get off-flavours or funny behaviour like not producing acid, or producing lots of acid.

Anyway, it sounds like it's worked for you, just thought it was worth noting the above for future reference.

Thanks! After 48 hours it's still pretty active so definitely not dead, we'll see if any off-flavours are showing up. It was around 32°C for a few hours I think, and is steady around 23°C since the morning after. I'll probably check pH and gravity this week end.

 

[drpepper517]

FWIW Lallemand says the optimal range for Philly Sour is 20-30C, I'm gonna try a brew tomorrow and ferment without refrigeration and my "fermentation room" easily gets to 30C and maybe even higher

 

[Thrashos]

So I took a reading and at day 8 (after a couple days with no visible activity) I'm at 1015 (OG was 1038), about 60% attenuation which is low but not unheard of, and I'm guessing it still has a little way to go, even if not sure if it will reach target gravity.

Planning on racking on fruits today (saw a bunch of people say 8 days was a good place to start).

Smell is a little yeasty on the samples I took, but loads of red apple notes and it tastes fine. Also, when I split the batch in two, I shaked one of the fermenter less than the other in order to see how it would turn out, and indeed, the one I oxygenated most is right where I wanted it to be pH-wise: 3,25 , while the other sample is only at 3,5 (same density).

 

[crusader1612]

So I took a reading and at day 8 (after a couple days with no visible activity) I'm at 1015 (OG was 1038), about 60% attenuation which is low but not unheard of, and I'm guessing it still has a little way to go, even if not sure if it will reach target gravity.

Planning on racking on fruits today (saw a bunch of people say 8 days was a good place to start).

Smell is a little yeasty on the samples I took, but loads of red apple notes and it tastes fine. Also, when I split the batch in two, I shaked one of the fermenter less than the other in order to see how it would turn out, and indeed, the one I oxygenated most is right where I wanted it to be pH-wise: 3,25 , while the other sample is only at 3,5 (same density).

I gave mine 2-3 weeks before racking across. I suspect it can keep going after poerceived finish.

I went from 1056-1011 pre fruit which is racked to asfter 3 weeks. then after 10 more days on fruit i ended up at 1008, with plenty of roasted andcrystal malts.

 

[Lacasse93]

Ive used this now a few times and the only thing I can say is the longer you can leave it in the fermenter the better. Let it sit on fruit for weeks and it will only benefit you. There has been times where it really only tastes "right" to me after about a month bottle conditioning (after 2 weeks fermenting).

 

[Frieds]

Put down my first brew on Friday using this yeast. The only knowledge I have of it is what I’ve picked up reading this thread.

I pitched 1 packet into 1.080 wort and left it for two days. Activity had only just started and the pH was down to 3.6. I had a taste and the sourness so far was really nice.

I then pitched my starter of LA3. 4 days in now and it’s bubbling away very well. The pH is still 3.6 so it’s seems that the Philly Sour has done its job and now the LA3 is doing the rest of the work.

I’m gonna add a boatload of raspberry to it post fermentation. I want to brew something along the lines of Mega Tastee by the Veil.

 

[Thrashos]

So I took a reading and at day 8 (after a couple days with no visible activity) I'm at 1015 (OG was 1038), about 60% attenuation which is low but not unheard of, and I'm guessing it still has a little way to go, even if not sure if it will reach target gravity.

Planning on racking on fruits today (saw a bunch of people say 8 days was a good place to start).

Smell is a little yeasty on the samples I took, but loads of red apple notes and it tastes fine. Also, when I split the batch in two, I shaked one of the fermenter less than the other in order to see how it would turn out, and indeed, the one I oxygenated most is right where I wanted it to be pH-wise: 3,25 , while the other sample is only at 3,5 (same density).

So to come back on that after I bottled:

My final gravity was 1012, about 68% attenuation. Next batch I'll pitch colder (around 22-25°c or so instead of over 32°c), we'll see if I get a better attenuation.

pH went up on the bucket where I added apricot (from 3.25 ro 3.35 at 90g / liter) and went way down on the blackberry bucket (from 3.5 to 3.05 only from the fruit, at 115 g/liter).

I'm very please with the result on the blackberry version, it's tart but not overly so even if the pH got me scared until I tried it, it was fine and the fruit is very forward but not at the point to be a fruit smoothie, it's pretty much the profile I was looking for.

For the apricot though, I wouldn't mind the pH to drop a bit, which might actually be a problem if the fruit brought it up because there wasn't enough fruit flavour imo (I used halves, maybe next time I'll go for more, or purée), I did a mild DH with Idaho 7 and that overpower the fruit a bit, I'm not too worried since that was only at bottling and it will tone down, but it definitely need more apricot. The red apple notes from Philly sour also come out pretty strongly (might also be that much because of my pitching temp, though the taste and smell are much better now, doesn't come out as yeasty anymore, just red apple), as much as the DH and again, the apricot is rather in the background. I need to find a way to get more fruit without having that pH going up too much, my sweet spot being around 3.2 .

 

[Jayjay1976]

I pitched a packet of Philly Sour into 6 gallons of 1.065 wort a couple of hours ago. It was chilled to 65F before pitching, but it will stay in the garage at ambient ~76-80F for the duration of fermentation. Do I need to set up a blow-off tube with this strain? I read it is a slow fermenting yeast but would like to know if anyone else can comment on whether it is necessary.

 

[Drewch]

I pitched a packet of Philly Sour into 6 gallons of 1.065 wort a couple of hours ago. It was chilled to 65F before pitching, but it will stay in the garage at ambient ~76-80F for the duration of fermentation. Do I need to set up a blow-off tube with this strain? I read it is a slow fermenting yeast but would like to know if anyone else can comment on whether it is necessary.

Probably not. It's not a super vigorous fermenter. I would, however, probably pitch two packs in 6 gallons tho.

 

[DuncB]

@Jayjay1976
I pitched one packet in 25 litres which is just over 6 US galls and it was okay. Krausen reached an inch not very exciting and took about 5 days to do that.
Main issue is that I'm not that keen on sour beers so will be struggling through the remaining 22 litres for quite a while.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Reporting back in, I barely escaped the need for a blow-off tube! This morning the airlock was full of yeast, and just enough overflowed to wet the top of the fermenter lid and then it subsided. That was close!

 

[Tyler B]

I took almost a year off but I'm back at it again. Brewed my most recent (20L) batch with 5L (1.25 gallons) of sugar cane juice added to the boil. Sugar cane juice is seasonal where I live so I was excited to give this a try before it was too late. As far as I can tell, it's mostly sucrose so I'm hoping some of it was inverted in the boil and the Philly Sour can take care of the rest.

I'll be sure to report back when it's done.