Any Lallemand Philly Sour feedback or experience to share?

[marc1]

2 packs 1.07 wort

If that was 5 gallons it sounds right.

 

[rjbergen]

Yesterday, we pitched 4 packs in 11.5 gallons of a Berliner Weisse brew at 1.043 SG. We are fermenting at 74F, but don't have much movement now, 22 hours in. The Tilt only shows dropping 0.001 points.

Used 50% Briess 2-row and 50% white wheat malt. Mashed at 148F for 90 minutes. Added 1 oz. of Hallertau at 60 mins.

We're excited to see how it turns out. We plan to split the batch and add 3 lbs. of peach puree to one half and 3 lbs. of tart cherry puree to the other. Will 3 lbs. per 5 gals. be enough fruit?

 

[HopsAreGood]

Yesterday, we pitched 4 packs in 11.5 gallons of a Berliner Weisse brew at 1.043 SG. We are fermenting at 74F, but don't have much movement now, 22 hours in. The Tilt only shows dropping 0.001 points.

Used 50% Briess 2-row and 50% white wheat malt. Mashed at 148F for 90 minutes. Added 1 oz. of Hallertau at 60 mins.

We're excited to see how it turns out. We plan to split the batch and add 3 lbs. of peach puree to one half and 3 lbs. of tart cherry puree to the other. Will 3 lbs. per 5 gals. be enough fruit?

This is completely dependent on the taste buds of the consumer. For some 3 pounds will be good, for others it won’t be enough. What kind of purée are you using and when do you plan on adding it? Lots of variables come into play here. There is no simple answer.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Crossmyloof are now selling a CML Sour 3.5 which looks like it is the same as the AEB FERMO Brew Acid, based on the way that they both mangle the species name of Lachancea thermotolerans in similar if not the same way. It's not clear if it's a rebadged version of Philly Sour or an unpatented strain of L. thermotolerans.

As an aside @dmtaylor, that misspelling is a pretty conclusive link between CML and AEB, which may apply to AEB's other yeasts, which include a bunch of hybrids claimed to produce specific aromas.

 

[dmtaylor]

Crossmyloof are now selling a CML Sour 3.5 which looks like it is the same as the AEB FERMO Brew Acid, based on the way that they both mangle the species name of Lachancea thermotolerans in similar if not the same way. It's not clear if it's a rebadged version of Philly Sour or an unpatented strain of L. thermotolerans.

As an aside @dmtaylor, that misspelling is a pretty conclusive link between CML and AEB, which may apply to AEB's other yeasts, which include a bunch of hybrids claimed to produce specific aromas.

Thanks, I'll bet you're right.

FYI -- for the time being, I haven't been following these manufacturers very closely. If I or the average American can't get this stuff at our LHBS... well I guess I'm somewhat of an ignorant ass. For now, anyway.

 

[chumpsteak]

Just for an additional data point, I used 1 pack in 5 gal of 1.050 wort and it dropped pH to 3.3 at 68F with no issues at all and no discernable off flavors. Took 48 hours or more to show activity and fermented out fully in less than 2 weeks.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

If I or the average American can't get this stuff at our LHBS... well I guess I'm somewhat of an ignorant ass. For now, anyway.

Oh I quite understand, but I figured the AEB range was useful to know about in case you needed to match it.

And from a UK perspective, the prices on CML stuff, especially after shipping, are rather compelling!

 

[rjbergen]

This is completely dependent on the taste buds of the consumer. For some 3 pounds will be good, for others it won’t be enough. What kind of purée are you using and when do you plan on adding it? Lots of variables come into play here. There is no simple answer.

We’re using Vintner’s Harvest canned purées and adding them in secondary for a week before kegging.

 

[Solynth]

Hi, first time poster. I just have a few questions.

1. How important is racking to a secondary with this yeast? I was planning on adding 1KG of frozen raspberries and 1KG of frozen mango after 10 days / when primary fermentation is complete. Will this cause off-flavours? Is it worth buying another fermenter to use as a secondary so I'm not adding fruit to the trub? Does the benefit of this outweigh possible oxidation, or would this not being a hop-forward beer be not as susceptible to oxidation?
2. Do I need to pasteurise the fruit before adding it? I bought them frozen. I was thinking of pureeing, then putting them in a vac sealed bag and using a sous vide to pasteurise before adding them to the fermenter.
3. I'll be adding the fruit to a paint strainer bag so the tap doesn't get blocked when I go to keg. Do I need to weigh the bag down so the fruit doesn't float on top? Could the floating fruit cause mould to form?

Thanks.

 

[t1m1]

We’re using Vintner’s Harvest canned purées and adding them in secondary for a week before kegging.

I plan to buy some purees too, to use 1kg for 1keg batch, how did your beer turn out, both of them?

 

[goodolarchie]

I inherited an embarrassment of Philly Sour sachets in a competition... been thinking up a way to leverage the unique hop-resistant souring capability, not going straight to Berlinerweisse or Sour IPA.

I am thinking of Parti-gyling off a big batch of mixed-ferm saison grist (pilsner, wheat, vienna), plus a longer boil and small sugar addition to produce a ~10P/1.040 3-4 gallon hoppy table beer, something close to a "Tart Grisette." I like the idea of coaxing out stonefruit esters created by the yeast. Only problem is how to get some actual grisette-saison character into the beer... otherwise I just end up with a weak version of a hazy sour IPA.

It's been interesting to read the thread on how co-pitching is not recommend to avoid competition and lactic production. But I'd be fine with any pH below 3.9 for this beer, I don't want 3.35pH. To that end, I'd be curious how it would play with Dupont underpitched, as the Dupont would stall after creating some initial 4VG + peppery character... presumably Philly can keep working.

This is a strange beer, but if I can manage to create a crisp, complex, tart, hoppy summer sipper in a couple weeks (no brett) I'd be happy. Aside from a couple oz of hops and propane to boil this frankenstein, there's no additional cost or time taken for me, since I'd be doing this alongside a big wort production day. That's an experiment I can't turn down. See you all in a few months with results...

 

[stealthfixr]

Tried a near co-fermentation with the Omega All the Bretts, pitching the later about 48-hours after pitching 2 packets of Philly Sour into a 1.047 OG wort. I also added 3.3lb of blueberry puree near the end of the primary. The resulting souring character is definitely more complex than just with Philly Sour, and no negatives so far--Philly Sour and All the Bretts seem to work well together. It's very drinkable now, but I am letting is age in a glass carboy for a few months to see if further conditioning helps the 'funkiness' develop more (and to time the keg with my daughter's visit in July--she loves sour beer).

Follow-up: just tried this beer, which has been marinating in a glass carboy for almost two months now for Brett maturation.

First sip of the sample was surprisingly good, definitely a much more complex taste & souring profile than Philly Sour alone. In fact, it was much more like a lambic-like taste than not. Not the same, not as complex, but not off by a huge margin either. Almost like 2/3rds or more of a complex sour profile in a fraction of the time. I plan to keg this beer in a couple weeks and let it continue to mature at room temp in an O2 free place for another month or so before carbonating and cold crashing.

I will add Brett to Philly Sour again in the future!

 

[rjbergen]

I plan to buy some purees too, to use 1kg for 1keg batch, how did your beer turn out, both of them?

Haha we’ve been lazy and the full 10 gal batch is still cold crashing in the fermenter. Thinking of adding the purée today. Now not sure if I’ll add the purée to the kegs and rack on top of it or add it to a secondary.

 

[DuncB]

I'm planning on using the lallemand philly sour yeast to make a sour ipa ( for the challenge ) got some for bargain basement price .
Any special water adjustments for this kind of thing ? I assume open ferment and it says reasonably tolerant of hops. My recipe is all whirlpool hops.
Temperature says between 20 and 27 is it fruitier at the higher end? I was thinking of a balanced mash to provide a good bit of glucose to kick it all off
so 62 for half an hour then raise to 69 for half an hour and then mash out at 76.
Grains are maris otter, pilsner, wheat and acidulated malt.
Wondering if I can substitute lactic acid for the acidulated malt and just add some more grain?

My first planned sour beer so any advice, not too late for me to abandon the plan.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

I'm planning on using the lallemand philly sour yeast to make a sour ipa ( for the challenge ) got some for bargain basement price .
Any special water adjustments for this kind of thing ? I assume open ferment and it says reasonably tolerant of hops. My recipe is all whirlpool hops.
Temperature says between 20 and 27 is it fruitier at the higher end? I was thinking of a balanced mash to provide a good bit of glucose to kick it all off
so 62 for half an hour then raise to 69 for half an hour and then mash out at 76.
Grains are maris otter, pilsner, wheat and acidulated malt.
Wondering if I can substitute lactic acid for the acidulated malt and just add some more grain?

My first planned sour beer so any advice, not too late for me to abandon the plan.

You can do whatever hops you want, its as tolerant as Sacc as its not bacteria.

Mashing low or adding sugar definitely helps for acidity, as does fermenting on the high end.

You can always substitute lactic acid for acidulated malt. Theyre just two ways of adjusting mash pH.

 

[moreb33rplz]

My 2 cents, I am finishing up a berliner weisse I brewed about 4 months ago. 3.0% ABV. This was a fantastic beer. I will be using this yeast again.

 

[DuncB]

@ThatVideoKid
Thanks for the update unless I can get some sourgrapes malt today I'll just add some Lactic acid. What pH should I be aiming for? I normally get my mashes around 5.3 with grains / additions. Should I be aiming lower for this yeast?
Or would I actually be better getting the mash pH ideal and then lowering the pH for the boil or in the fermenter with some lactic acid?

 

[ThatVideoKid]

@ThatVideoKid
Thanks for the update unless I can get some sourgrapes malt today I'll just add some Lactic acid. What pH should I be aiming for? I normally get my mashes around 5.3 with grains / additions. Should I be aiming lower for this yeast?
Or would I actually be better getting the mash pH ideal and then lowering the pH for the boil or in the fermenter with some lactic acid?

Aim for the normal 5.2-5.4

 

[Kickass]

Im about a year or two behind this Philly Sour craze. It wasn’t until I listened to a pod cast featuring the professor who facilitated finding, propagating then commercializing it that I realized how fun using it could be. For those who have a few batches under their belts, mind criticizing my recipe?

I plan to brew 10gal and split into two 5gal batches. One will get the dry hops and no mango. The other will get no dry hops and a bunch of mango.

UPDATE:
My recipe changed very slightly. The biggest being i forgot to add the table sugar. I'm pretty pleased with how this beer turned out. I don't have a PH meter so I have to use the trusty ole tongue on this one. The tartness is present but not puckering.
The mango is definitely noticeable and complimentary, not overbearing. It has that true mango flavor that i have a hard time describing. to me its like this earthy/spicy/green pepper note that is distinctly mango. You probably know what i'm talking about but maybe perceived it differently. I drank mine along side Golden Road's (AB Inbev) Mango Cart and they're noticeably different. GR has a very pronounced sweet mango note that goes from the nose through the tasting finish. GR seems one dimensional and a little fake candy flavored where as mine tastes like a mango. GR is more pronounced as well.
The dry hopped version is great too. 15-20 tasters in and the preference seems to be split. Half rather the mango, the other half rather the dry hop.

 

[DuncB]

@Kickass
Did you just use the cascade as per your original recipe plan?
When did you dry hop ?
Did you double dry hop?

I'm fermenting at 26 celsius ( 78-79 F ) only 12 hours in some scummy bubbles on the surface.

Does anyone pressure ferment with this if so do you start free with airlock and then pressure at the back end of the post acid / final ferment?

 

[Kickass]

@DuncB, heres my recipe for the non-mango half, 5gal batch:

5lb pils
3lb wheat malt

.55oz cascade @45min
.45oz amarillo @45min
1oz amarillo @10min

1oz amarillo whirlpool @170* for 20min

.5oz amarillo dry hop for 5 days

Fermented at an ambient temp of 70*

 

[DuncB]

@Kickass

Thanks
I used 5.4 kg Pilsner
1 kg Maris Otter
0.8 kg Wheat Malt
0.165 Sour grapes malt

1 oz each Mandarina, Zythos, Citra in whirlpool at 185 falling to 170 then repeated.

Dry hopping in 2 doses of 1 oz each Mandarina, Citra and El dorado first after krausen drops then second after ferment finish and cooled to 14 celsius for a further 3 days.

Fermenting at 25.5 celsius, now 16 hours in fluffy white throthy krausen.

Will see how it goes.

 

[drpepper517]

Made an excellent sour with the Philly

BIAB so estimated around 70% efficiency, plus we ran out of gas halfway through boil and broke our hydrometer .Excellent beer for such a disastrous brew day:

20L batch (about 23.5L into fermenter due to lack of boiloff)

3.7 kg Weyermann Pale
.8kg Wheat Malt
.25kg Acidulated

Mash @ 66C for 60 min.

Boil 60 min with 30g Mandarina Bavaria at 60 min

Dry hop with 60g Azaaca and 30g Mosaic

2 packets of Philly Sour fermented at 20C fermented for 10 days

Estimated OG around 1.040, got to 1.008, 4.2%

Bottled with 165g dextrose and let carb up for 3 weeks. It was a hit!

 

[Kabezullo]

tomorrow doing a red philly sour, based on the recipe posted from mike mad fermentationist.
will use first philly sour and then some bottle dregs.
some opinion about look for brett lacto pedio and more? or look just brett ?
my question is because lacto and pedio from dregs will maybe increase the sourness of the final beer, and only brett will help for a more complex beer.
someone try something like that¡?

 

[DuncB]

Well my pH hit 3.4 at the end of ferment, I fermented at 26 until pH was 3.6 and then threw in the kveik yeast and bumped to 33 celsius. Now on second dry hop, clearing already and under pressure will fine and crash cool on day 5 of second dry hop. Will update, was certainly sour at tasting and gravity had finished at 1.009

 

[ThatVideoKid]

tomorrow doing a red philly sour, based on the recipe posted from mike mad fermentationist.
will use first philly sour and then some bottle dregs.
some opinion about look for brett lacto pedio and more? or look just brett ?
my question is because lacto and pedio from dregs will maybe increase the sourness of the final beer, and only brett will help for a more complex beer.
someone try something like that¡?

My only question is: why use Philly sour if you’re going to add bottle dregs? If I was to do it, I’d just go brett so I don’t have to deal with the potential for the very long aging time pedio often needs.

 

[Drewch]

My only question is: why use Philly sour if you’re going to add bottle dregs? If I was to do it, I’d just go brett so I don’t have to deal with the potential for the very long aging time pedio often needs.

That's a good point --- the raison d'être of PhillySour is avoiding the need to mess around with bacteria.

 

[Kabezullo]

My only question is: why use Philly sour if you’re going to add bottle dregs? If I was to do it, I’d just go brett so I don’t have to deal with the potential for the very long aging time pedio often needs.

my idea is to do a relatively quick sour, but looking for more complexity that with philly sour is difficult to get. apart from that, here in argentina is not common to find fresh bottles of unpasteurized sour beers. i think that not fresh dregs will not be enough to ferment a 5 gallons batch. maybe i am wrong and every post is very helpful for me-

 

[ThatVideoKid]

my idea is to do a relatively quick sour, but looking for more complexity that with philly sour is difficult to get. apart from that, here in argentina is not common to find fresh bottles of unpasteurized sour beers. i think that not fresh dregs will not be enough to ferment a 5 gallons batch. maybe i am wrong and every post is very helpful for me-

If quick is your goal, only use dregs will brett with your Philly sour. Brett can taste good quickly. Pedio sometimes can, but other times it’ll be a diacetyl Bomb or get ropey and require a year+ to be drinkable.

 

[Kabezullo]

If quick is your goal, only use dregs will brett with your Philly sour. Brett can taste good quickly. Pedio sometimes can, but other times it’ll be a diacetyl Bomb or get ropey and require a year+ to be drinkable.

i am not in a hurry but i want to try with the speed of philly sour to acidify and look for some complexity with brett. with another batch (safale be 134 saison with femme fatale evil twins dreg) have a good experience, 4 months on secundary and improve good flavors.
thanks for all and will tell how it goes !

 

[Thrashos]

Anyone has experience with tolerance to heat (pitching too hot) on Philly Sour? My brewing buddy thought it was lactobacillus and pitched at 90°F (32°c)...

10Gal batch split in 2, and 2 packs per 5Gal fermenter. One of the fermenter showed big activity after half an hour so pretty much no lag time which I understand is unusual for that strain (I'm afraid that it goes down as quick as it started...) and the other hasen't started yet, but it was also less oxygenated. It's at room temp (74°F right now, will probably drop a bit more in a few hours);, should reach 77°F by middle of the night or tomorrow morning. more or less.

Should I wait and see? I still got a couple 11g packs in the fridge planned for another brew.

 

[Drewch]

. . . Should I wait and see? . . .

I'd say give it time and see how it goes. It might be fine, and (as long as you have good sanitation and there aren't any other bugs in there) it's unlikely to get any worse. You can always pitch more yeast later.

 

[DuncB]

I've only done one but, pitched at 26 and held there. Watch the pH, mine dropped pretty steady until day 5 when 3.6. Not much Krausen with the philly.
Should give the best indication that the philly yeast is working and not a bug.

I then pitched some kveik dried out laerdal, but not totally sure it worked but I did bump temp to 33 and it fully attenuated and final pH was 3.4.

Not sure whether this was the philly sour continuing or the kveik.

 

[Thrashos]

I definitely have krausen on both fermenters, will probably do a pH check in a couple days or so.

 

[beervoid]

I fermented around 28c without problems.

 

[JTOVERMOHLE]

Conan the Rhubarbarian Rhubarb Sour using Philly Sour

 

[DuncB]

Tart and Sour philly sour and kveik IPA.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Anyone has experience with tolerance to heat (pitching too hot) on Philly Sour? My brewing buddy thought it was lactobacillus and pitched at 90°F (32°c)...

Remember that although we typically ferment Saccharomyces at 15-20°C, that's only to reduce off-flavours. It actually grows best at around 30°C, and can survive up to 40°C or so, although it varies from strain to strain. So there's a big difference between recommended fermentation temperatures and what a yeast can survive, particularly for a short while. Remember that in the wild, they have to survive the summer on a grapevine or fruit tree which in the Mediterranean might go up to 40°C, whilst waiting for the cooler temperatures of autumn when the fruit is ripe.

So don't assume that pitching warm will kill everything. On the other hand, Lachancea is generally a cold-adapted genus, there's a reason that the species used for brewing is L. thermotolerans!!! So if the recommendation is to ferment it at 20°C then it should survive 30-35°C for short periods but I would get nervous above that, or that temperature for prolonged amounts of time, you may get off-flavours or funny behaviour like not producing acid, or producing lots of acid.

Anyway, it sounds like it's worked for you, just thought it was worth noting the above for future reference.

 

[Thrashos]

Remember that although we typically ferment Saccharomyces at 15-20°C, that's only to reduce off-flavours. It actually grows best at around 30°C, and can survive up to 40°C or so, although it varies from strain to strain. So there's a big difference between recommended fermentation temperatures and what a yeast can survive, particularly for a short while. Remember that in the wild, they have to survive the summer on a grapevine or fruit tree which in the Mediterranean might go up to 40°C, whilst waiting for the cooler temperatures of autumn when the fruit is ripe.

So don't assume that pitching warm will kill everything. On the other hand, Lachancea is generally a cold-adapted genus, there's a reason that the species used for brewing is L. thermotolerans!!! So if the recommendation is to ferment it at 20°C then it should survive 30-35°C for short periods but I would get nervous above that, or that temperature for prolonged amounts of time, you may get off-flavours or funny behaviour like not producing acid, or producing lots of acid.

Anyway, it sounds like it's worked for you, just thought it was worth noting the above for future reference.

Thanks! After 48 hours it's still pretty active so definitely not dead, we'll see if any off-flavours are showing up. It was around 32°C for a few hours I think, and is steady around 23°C since the morning after. I'll probably check pH and gravity this week end.

 

[drpepper517]

FWIW Lallemand says the optimal range for Philly Sour is 20-30C, I'm gonna try a brew tomorrow and ferment without refrigeration and my "fermentation room" easily gets to 30C and maybe even higher