Another dry yeast vs liquid yeast thread - questions ands discussion

[dmtaylor]

Didn't the folks at clawhammer do a test on length of mash and found after 20-30 min almost 90+% conversion? I know temperature has a lot to do with fermentability

TIME also has a bit to do with fermentability, at least in the first ~45 minutes of the mash. If mashing much shorter than that, like 20 minutes and then mashed out, the starches will be converted to dextrins and complex sugars, but not as much simple sugars that most yeasts are capable of eating. If I want a full bodied beer, one trick I've learned is to mash for just 20-25 minutes then immediately mash out. If I want a dry beer, then I mash for a minimum of 75 minutes at which point you're right it doesn't much affect the fermentability after that point anymore... you might still eek another point or two out of both efficiency and fermentability but it isn't much after that point, unless your crush really sucked in which case then go ahead and mash overnight. Crush has a bit to do with it all as well. My guidance above assumes a good quality crush where there is a good percentage of flour and all the kernels are broken into like 6 to 8 bits, not just in half or whatever.

But methinks we digress... isn't this thread supposed to be about yeast or something? I forgot...

 

[joshbuhl]

TIME also has a bit to do with fermentability, at least in the first ~45 minutes of the mash. If mashing much shorter than that, like 20 minutes and then mashed out, the starches will be converted to dextrins and complex sugars, but not as much simple sugars that most yeasts are capable of eating. If I want a full bodied beer, one trick I've learned is to mash for just 20-25 minutes then immediately mash out. If I want a dry beer, then I mash for a minimum of 75 minutes at which point you're right it doesn't much affect the fermentability after that point anymore... you might still eek another point or two out of both efficiency and fermentability but it isn't much after that point, unless your crush really sucked in which case then go ahead and mash overnight. Crush has a bit to do with it all as well. My guidance above assumes a good quality crush where there is a good percentage of flour and all the kernels are broken into like 6 to 8 bits, not just in half or whatever.

But methinks we digress... isn't this thread supposed to be about yeast or something? I forgot...

That‘s interesting…but aren‘t you sacrificing a lot of efficiency mashing for only 20minutes? I usually keep mashing until the SG stops going up, which is in fact usually about 75 minutes. Here‘s data from my last batch last sunday:

Dough-in 08:50; 09:16 1,060; 09:29 1,067; 09:40 1,070; 10:00 1,075;

So, up to 1.060 in 25 minutes, but the next 45 minutes brought another 15 gravity points, which is nothing to sneeze at, imho. On the other hand, my NEIPAs have also been a little too dry for my taste (1.012) lately. maybe this is why.

 

[mac_1103]

aren‘t you sacrificing a lot of efficiency mashing for only 20minutes? I usually keep mashing until the SG stops going up, which is in fact usually about 75 minutes

His mash isn't your mash and your mash isn't his. You're doing it right, but that doesn't mean he's doing it wrong.

 

[RM-MN]

I sometimes only mash for 20 minutes but then my brewhouse efficiency is only in the low 90% range.

 

[dmtaylor]

I sometimes only mash for 20 minutes but then my brewhouse efficiency is only in the low 90% range.

"only"!

That‘s interesting…but aren‘t you sacrificing a lot of efficiency mashing for only 20minutes?... So, up to 1.060 in 25 minutes, but the next 45 minutes brought another 15 gravity points, which is nothing to sneeze at, imho.

But, how is your crush, and your mash pH? With a fine crush and a mash pH of around 5.5-5.6, you could get nearly all of your gravity points in about 30-35 minutes. Not 20, but only a few more minutes. At least, that has been my experience. YMMV, as @mac_1103 also indicated.

But we digress! Hugely!

 

[joshbuhl]

But, how is your crush, and your mash pH?

I‘ve fiddled around with the crush quite a bit. I brew in a recirculating all-in-one system with malt pipe. My current standard practice is to mill about 20% of the grist at 0.9mm, then 60% at 1.1mm and the final 20% at 1.3mm (these are the possible settings on my MattMill Master, which here in Germany is one of the best mills to be had) and dough this in in the reverse order, so the coursest is more or less on the bottom, where the malt pipe drains, and the finest near the top. This seems to get me a good balance between mash efficiency (usually around 75%) and good recirc with no stuck sparges.

I monitor pH constantly (say 4-8measurements in a given mash) and adjust with acid. I know my water well enough (which has high residual alkalinity, making pH adjustment somewhat delicate) that I usually add about 80% of the planned acid to the strike water, measure 10 minutes after doughing-in and adjust if necessary, measure and repeat if necessary. I usually don‘t need to adjust again after the first adjustment. I currently target 5.3 mash pH (measured at 20°C).

With a fine crush and a mash pH of around 5.5-5.6, you could get nearly all of your gravity points in about 30-35 minutes.

I guess I could try a higher mash pH, but it sure seems like a lot of good breweries recommend something around 5.2-5.3.

Not 20, but only a few more minutes. At least, that has been my experience. YMMV, as @mac_1103 also indicated.

Well, yes then, MMVs, as already indicated.

But we digress! Hugely!

Should I start a new thread?

Cheers DM,

 

[joshbuhl]

I sometimes only mash for 20 minutes but then my brewhouse efficiency is only in the low 90% range.

Wow, that‘s hard to believe. 90% Mash efficiency is usually out of reach for home brewers, and then you‘d have to have *zero* losses on the way to the FV….

 

[ncbrewer]

I sometimes only mash for 20 minutes but then my brewhouse efficiency is only in the low 90% range.

Are you talking about brewhouse efficiency or conversion efficiency?

 

[RM-MN]

Brewhouse. Conversion should be very near 100%. My milling is extremely fine and to reach the desired volume of wort, being that my kettle is kind of small for the batch size, I end up with a triple batch sparge.

 

[Pehlman17]

WHC Old English has replaced Notty as my house yeast for English beers. 80% attenuation on the button every time and mild orange esters. Think WLP007 but 1/4 of the price. Will play nice in 14% wort too.

Never heard of it, but consider me intrigued as I’m a big fan of WLP007. Care to share more thoughts?

 

[Miraculix]

Never heard of it, but consider me intrigued as I’m a big fan of WLP007. Care to share more thoughts?

#2

 

[HM-2]

It's purported origin is Gales in Hampshire, subsequently purchased by Fuller's and purported origin of a few other isolates, including the Wyeast Whitbred strain.

Official stats are 76-80% attention though I've never seen much under 80, 14% alcohol tolerance and flocs well. Fast fermenter, big lumpy cheese curd krausen. Fairly neutral but throws some fruity esters warmer, I get an orange from is as opposed to the apple I tend to get from Notty.

 

[Miraculix]

It's purported origin is Gales in Hampshire, subsequently purchased by Fuller's and purported origin of a few other isolates, including the Wyeast Whitbred strain.

Official stats are 76-80% attention though I've never seen much under 80, 14% alcohol tolerance and flocs well. Fast fermenter, big lumpy cheese curd krausen. Fairly neutral but throws some fruity esters warmer, I get an orange from is as opposed to the apple I tend to get from Notty.

Isn't that also pretty much s04?

 

[HM-2]

Isn't that also pretty much s04?

I'd heard that S-04 was Whitbred derived, and I think WHCs own materials on Old English described it as a "comparable", but IME they're not that similar.

Interestingly they list another yeast, Bond, as comparable to 007, though the stats for both are basically identical.

 

[Miraculix]

I'd heard that S-04 was Whitbred derived, and I think WHCs own materials on Old English described it as a "comparable", but IME they're not that similar.

Interestingly they list another yeast, Bond, as comparable to 007, though the stats for both are basically identical.

Nice! I shall give it a try than! Probably bond and old english, both separately.

 

[corncob]

Anybody seen this for sale in the US? (I hope)

 

[corncob]

https://whclab.us/products/old-english

It looks like they only sell bricks in the US. I'm getting one this summer. Which, though?

I am leery of laying too much weight to these kinds of things, but the flavor descriptions at the bottom of the data sheets have me leaning toward the old English, rather than the pub/bond.

Anybody else have experience with either of these?

 

[Franktalk]

The description sounds like S04, to me. Why not make it easier (and cheaper) and use that.

 

[corncob]

The description sounds like S04, to me. Why not make it easier (and cheaper) and use that.

I get the S-04 tartness, either because of my bad process or because of a particular sensitivity to the flavor. I do not think the description sounds like S-04, but that's probably wishful thinking. Either way, this summer just filled up completely fit me. Probably won't be again until shipping liquid is back on the table.

 

[hungupdown]

......
In my experience, Notty quits at about 9 to 9.5% ABV. I find it attenuates to about 78% regardless of mash temp, but have seen it as high as like 81 or 82% on rare occasion (only for <9% ABV of course). Similar stories for S-04.

........
In my experience, Notty quits at about 9 to 9.5% ABV. I find it attenuates to about 78% regardless of mash temp, but have seen it as high as like 81 or 82% on rare occasion (only for <9% ABV of course). Similar stories for S-04.

I chose Nottingham for a 14% imperial stout. The 20L batch, done 17 months ago, ended up at 15%, and most is still aging on chopped oak barrel staves.
I did use 600ml of yeast slurry, from a 1 gallon DME starter; aeration with airstone; and 200g dextrose additions every 2 -3 days, occasionally with extra yeast nutrient, till day 15.
OG: 1.104
Total gravity: 1.125
FG: 1.010

 

[VTMongoose]

I get the S-04 tartness, either because of my bad process or because of a particular sensitivity to the flavor. I do not think the description sounds like S-04, but that's probably wishful thinking. Either way, this summer just filled up completely fit me. Probably won't be again until shipping liquid is back on the table.

One interesting data point on this subject... I have brewed three beers this years so far with S-04, one had that distinct "tartness" others describe and the other two, completely absent. I could speculate on why that is all day long but I certainly wouldn't condemn the yeast because on one of those three batches (a stout) I was immensely satisfied with the yeast character, fermentation performance, and attenuation level, to the point where I've absolutely no plans to change anything about the pitch rate or fermentation temp on the next batch.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Never heard of it, but consider me intrigued as I’m a big fan of WLP007. Care to share more thoughts?

I think WHC Bond is the dry version of WLP007. Old English is a dry version of Nottingham.

 

[corncob]

Are

I think WHC Bond is the dry version of WLP007. Old English is a dry version of Nottingham.

You sure about that? I've heard people say both. How do you know?

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Are

You sure about that? I've heard people say both. How do you know?

BOND • A clean, aggressive, attenuative, ABV tolerant, and highly flocculant ale strain. This yeast is the go-to house yeast for many microbreweries. This English-style yeast provides the backbone for everything from IPAs to stouts to barley wines. Oxygenation and/or rehydration for generation 0 may be beneficial, but not necessary.

• Dosage: 11g pack per 19-23litres
• Recommended Fermentation Temperature: 18°C to 22°C
• ABV Tolerance: 14%
• Attenuation: 76% to 80%
• Flocculation: High
• Comparative Strains: English Ale
• Beer Styles: Brown Ales, Imperial Stouts, IPAs, Pale Ales, Red Ales, Stouts

OLD ENGLISH • A British-style ale yeast that is characterized by high attenuation, low ester formation during fermentation, and high ABV tolerance. A good top-fermenting yeast strain that is a great choice for pale ales, ambers, porters, and stouts. Oxygenation and/or rehydration for generation 0 may be beneficial, but not necessary.

• Dosage: 11g pack per 19-23litres
• Recommended Fermentation Temperature: 18°C to 22°C
• ABV Tolerance:14%
• Attenuation: 78% to 85%
• Flocculation: Medium to High
• Comparative Strains:Nottingham
• Beer Styles: Amber Ale, Pale Ales, Porters, Stouts

 

[HM-2]

I'm pretty sure Cheshire has it right and I had it backwards earlier- Bond is a derivative of Whitbread Dry (so same origin as WLP007) and WHC have confirmed this.

The origin of Old English is a bit fuzzier- if it was Gales via Hales as they claim (albeit caveated as "unconfirmed"), it would be related to Wyeast 1332 Northwest Ale, but the attenuation characteristics are pretty different. It does have pretty similar fermentation characteristics to Nottingham (but so do most other high-attenuating British yeasts, to be fair). Old English makes a very good IPA, both British and American style, and I've personally got some mild citrus from it when fermented warm (which I never have with Notty).

 

[Miraculix]

I really like the idea that with Gozdawa and WHC we seem to have some new real English dry strains available!

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I can’t see where to buy Gozdawa yeast in the UK.

 

[Brockness Monster]

007 = Bond, James Bond