Amylase enzyme

[augiedoggy]

Unfortunately, I probably won't be doing any brewing for a long time as we had to vacate our house due to health and safety reasons stemming from an elderly hoarder living next door in our duplex. Now we are paying rent and mortgage and forced into a small apartment with a terrible commute etc. etc.

its comments like these that make me worry about renting the empty side of my duplex out....

 

[Owly055]

I frequently use amylase. I bought a pound of powder about a year and a half ago, and it goes a LONG way. Just a tad in the mash will speed up conversion, and it's particularly useful when you use unmalted grains in any significant percentage. It's a great tool. Screw up and get your mash temp too high.... Let it cool a bit and toss in a bit, etc. I recently bought some AG300 fungal amylase with the idea of using it in secondary. I don't believe the powder really does much in secondary, but I've never done a side by side. It's a great tool in a number of applications. I wouldn't be without it, considering the small cost. A pound is about $15 including freight. 500ML of AG300 was about $25 including shipping, and should last for years!!

H.W.

 

[lemy]

Hey, that's good news. Looks like you did have some starch left from your mash. Also good that you didn't have to resort to beano as I hear that can turn your beer to mich ultra, and I'm not sure what an ultra stout would taste like, but probably not good.

How long was your original mash? Maybe too short or your temperature reading was off? Probably a good time to calibrate your thermometer.

I originally wanted to make a 5-6%abv oatmeal stout that was a bit on the sweeter side, like a milk stout. I mashed at 155 for an hour and it is possible my analog thermometer in the thermowell of the mach tun is not calibrated. I typically use my digital thermocouple to check, because I have been burned with bad thermometers before. The OG was supposed to be 1.060, but I have a problem, which, I think, is in my volume measurement of the boil kettle. My pre-boil gravity was way low, so I had to do a 2 hour boil to get my OG in the right pace and also added a pound of corn sugar, but I overshot and ended up with 1.080. I think the fermentables were all fermented out at 1.030. It looks as though Amylase enzyme is doing the trick to break down some of the unfermentables.

We'll see how it ends up. I hope I saved my beer because it is the first I have brewed in almost a year, and I need some Holiday stout!

 

[StMarcos]

Enzymash has high quality enzymes in small quantities. The problem I see with cultured enzymes is getting them to stop where you want them. It's easy to have a ferment drop to 0sg.

 

[Owly055]

Enzymash has high quality enzymes in small quantities. The problem I see with cultured enzymes is getting them to stop where you want them. It's easy to have a ferment drop to 0sg.

Heat stops them just fine........ I find that they do not survive the boil..........

 

[mredge73]

I have used it from time to time in the mash to aid conversion and dry thin bodied beers to colored water. Great for BMC clones.
I also use it with my rice wine; this stuff will turn steamed rice to syrup.

How does the branching limit work? I thought that this stuff had the potential to run away like Beeno so I have never used it post boil.

 

[lemy]

Enzymash has high quality enzymes in small quantities. The problem I see with cultured enzymes is getting them to stop where you want them. It's easy to have a ferment drop to 0sg.

I was wondering about that. In my specific situation, I felt I had not other option to save the beer, because 1.030 just isn't palatable.

thanks for the info

 

[StMarcos]

Heat stops them just fine........ I find that they do not survive the boil..........

Sure, but how do you know where the conversion is at when you denature?

 

[Owly055]

Sure, but how do you know where the conversion is at when you denature?

Thus far, I have only used enzymes in the mash........ I use a refractometer, which tells me very easily when the conversion is complete. Fermentability is another matter altogether, and as I do not have any kind of fermentable sugar meter, it's purely a matter of experience, and developing techniques that give you the results you want. For example, one technique I often use is to dough in and leave the mash for the afternoon while I go out and fix somebody's tractor, or whatever. Doughing in at the typical 152, I know that the attenuation will be about the same as for a one hour mash. At the end of 4 hours, the temp will be around 130. As I do BIAB (more or less), I can easily reheat. I know from experience that if I add amylase at this point and heat very slowly up to 155 or so, I will end up with a very nice dry beer. When I put it in, and how slowly I reheat make a difference. I call this a "reverse step mash". It works for me, but I can't tell you how to do it. The results are very consistent, but you have to figure it out on your system. I brew small (3 gallons), and do not have any aversion to experimentation. You don't want to play with 11 gallon brews.

H.W.

 

[jammin]

I've used amylase in the fermentor several times. 1/2tsp per 6gal aids in healthy attenuation. 1tsp per 6 gallons will yield a nice dry beer even with higher gravity worts.

I've had dipa's over 1.080sg finish at 1.005 using enzyme, Cali ale yeast and a little dex in the grist

 

[passedpawn]

I was wondering about that. In my specific situation, I felt I had not other option to save the beer, because 1.030 just isn't palatable.

thanks for the info

Imagine an Oatmeal Stout, stuck at 1.030, then using AE to fix it successfully. Sounds very, very familiar Maybe you can get some more info from the following thread:

Escape from Stuck Fermentation Mountain - AE to the Rescue

 

[lemy]

Escape from Stuck Fermentation Mountain - AE to the Rescue

Oh that is a great thread, Thanks!

 

[lemy]

I did a gravity check last night and it has gone down from 12brix to 11brix. currently around 1.022

So, where does it stop?
I am happy to see the gravity drop, but I really didn't want a dry stout. My goal was somewhere around 1.017-1.019...

 

[passedpawn]

I did a gravity check last night and it has gone down from 12brix to 11brix. currently around 1.022

So, where does it stop?
I am happy to see the gravity drop, but I really didn't want a dry stout. My goal was somewhere around 1.017-1.019...

The only way to stop it is to kill the yeast. You'll need heat to do that.

It'll keep fermenting to the limit of fermentation, which is about 85% of the OG. For you, that's 1.012.

 

[jammin]

The only way to stop it is to kill the yeast. You'll need heat to do that.

It'll keep fermenting to the limit of fermentation, which is about 85% of the OG. For you, that's 1.012.

Can you cite any references for this please?

 

[passedpawn]

Can you cite any references for this please?

Alpha amylase is the same enzyme in barley. At mash temperatures, they are slowly denatured, but not before they cleave the big sugars. At room temperature, they work forever, to the extent that AE can. That's it's "limit of fermentation".

I read it on Kai Troester's site. It's also in this big expensive brewing book I have. I'll cut the quote out of there and drop the link here after I get back from the dog park

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Alternatively, if the gravity goes too low, you could add some lactose in to raise it back up. I bet it'll turn out pretty nice as is.

 

[lemy]

Alternatively, if the gravity goes too low, you could add some lactose in to raise it back up. I bet it'll turn out pretty nice as is.

That is true, but I think I will live with the 1.012, which is totally acceptable. I do not want to do any more to this beer than I already have

 

[lemy]

The only way to stop it is to kill the yeast. You'll need heat to do that.

It'll keep fermenting to the limit of fermentation, which is about 85% of the OG. For you, that's 1.012.

Sulfites would do it too, which is what they do in wine and cider, but 1.012 for a FG is fine with me. I just hope it isn't jet fuel

Thanks for the info!

 

[passedpawn]

Can you cite any references for this please?

See links at link below. Got rained on at the dog park btw.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7220531&postcount=33

 

[doug293cz]

...

How does the branching limit work? I thought that this stuff had the potential to run away like Beeno so I have never used it post boil.

Starch is made up of amylose and amylopectin. Amylose is a straight chain polymer made of up of lots of glucose molecular units bonded together. Amylopectin is made up of lots of straight chain segments made up of glucose, along with occasional branches. Amylose can be completely converted to fermentable sugars by both alpha and beta amylase. However, the amylase enzymes cannot break the bonds at amylopectin branch points, and in fact cannot even cut off all the glucose molecules near the branch points. So what's left over, after the amylase has done all that it can do, is branched remnants of the amylopectins, with short glucose chains emanating from each of the original branch points. These are known as limit dextrins.

Adding amylase enzyme to the fermenter can finish converting any amylose that was left after the mash, and can convert any dextrins with long glucose chains to limit dextrins, plus maltose & glucose.

(The following paragraph was edited on 2/22/24 by doug293cz. .pdf attachment on Limit Dextrinase added as well.)

There is an enzyme (limit dextrinase) in barley that can break the branching bond in amylopectin, but it is completely denatured before we ever get to normal saccharification temperatures, so plays no role in typical mashes. Beano has something that, like limit detxtrinase, can break the branching bond in the limit dextrins. Limit dextrinase is optimally active at, or slightly below, the optimal temp range for beta amylase, and denatures at slightly lower temperatures than beta amylase. Thus it can finish converting the dextrins to fermentable sugars, which amylase cannot.

Beta amylase creates only maltose, so action by it will modify the molecular weight distribution of the sugars created in the mash to have a higher proportion of maltose than if the saccharification was the result of alpha amylase alone. Alpha amylase alone (ie without assistance by beta amylase) can reduce starch to all fermentable sugars and limit dextrins, if given enough time and it is not all denatured before the task is completed. Two common misconceptions are that beta amylase is responsible for the higher fermentability of wort mashed at lower temperatures, and that alpha amylase does not create fermentable sugars. The higher fermentability of wort mashed at lower temperatures is primarily due to the action of limit dextrinase, which converts dextrins to fermentable sugars, so there are less dextrins, and more fermentable sugars in the final wort (see attached paper.)

For more information read: www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Starch_Conversion

Brew on

 

[Natdavis777]

For my Cream Ale I used it in the mash (I believe it said that on the bottle) and it still finishes around 1.010. Should I be using this rather in the fermentor days before packaging instead?

 

[Schlenkerla]

For my Cream Ale I used it in the mash (I believe it said that on the bottle) and it still finishes around 1.010. Should I be using this rather in the fermentor days before packaging instead?

I'm not sure a cream ale should be dry. If you want it dryer mash at 147F and add AE in the secondary.

 

[passedpawn]

For my Cream Ale I used it in the mash (I believe it said that on the bottle) and it still finishes around 1.010. Should I be using this rather in the fermentor days before packaging instead?

It probably wouldn't do much for you in the mash. The malting process ensures that your barley contains loads of these enzymes. AE in the mash could be useful if you had a mash with poor enzyme content, for example not much barley and a lot of rice and corn etc, where you might need to add additional enzymes. AE would work for that.

Note that when you boil, the AE is denatured and becomes useless.

It might not help much in the fermentor if you already got good attenuation. Just put a teaspoon in the fermentor and see what happens. Might get a couple of points more.

 

[Rfox2014]

This thread has been extremely helpful. I have an ipa 1.65 OG on day 5 (verdant ipa yeast) that is still sitting at 1.30 FG. After a few more days, if it’s still high, I have some amylase enzyme on hand that I’ll try. If i do, i’ll report back

 

[doug293cz]

This thread has been extremely helpful. I have an ipa 1.65 OG on day 5 (verdant ipa yeast) that is still sitting at 1.30 FG. After a few more days, if it’s still high, I have some amylase enzyme on hand that I’ll try. If i do, i’ll report back

Are your measuring your current SG with a hydrometer, or refractometer? If a refractometer, are you using a correction calculator to account for the presence of ethanol?

Brew on

 

[Rfox2014]

Are your measuring your current SG with a hydrometer, or refractometer? If a refractometer, are you using a correction calculator to account for the presence of ethanol?

Brew on

I use a tilt. It’s a split batch and both fermenters are showing the same reading. I’m running a propane setup, no recirculation, I think mash temp was pushing 159 - 160. I was aiming for 154…

 

[doug293cz]

I use a tilt. It’s a split batch and both fermenters are showing the same reading. I’m running a propane setup, no recirculation, I think mash temp was pushing 159 - 160. I was aiming for 154…

The high mash temp is most likely the cause of the high (almost) FG. Amylase in the fermenter may help. But, it won't get you as low as a lower temp mash would have (I can explain if you're into nerdy things.)

Brew on

 

[Rfox2014]

The high mash temp is most likely the cause of the high (almost) FG. Amylase in the fermenter may help. But, it won't get you as low as a lower temp mash would have (I can explain if you're into nerdy things.)

Brew on

I am a beer nerd, explain away!

 

[fluketamer]

i am not great at mash temps but i can imagine that if the optimal range to mash is lets say 149 to 166. then i can imagine mashing out of this range or closer to the limits would lead to less sacharification( always wanted to use that word in a post) . so maybe less sugar and more starch so less available sugar for the yeast to eat. so higher fg

also if close to 170 (mash out temps) i think that ireversibly denatures the enzymes that convert the starch to sugar.

not sure if this is right but it seems reasonable