Diluting high(er) gravity fermented beer for better yeast expression

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AmarikinBrew

LOOK! He's diving into that can of beer AGAIN!
Joined
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@JohnA: I've just put the spreadsheet in my "signature" below. It may change in looks over the coming months, but the calculations seem solid. It's in the public section of a Google drive (read-only, download a copy to edit it, created in Excel, but tested in Google Sheets - not recommended - and latest LibreOffice Calc).

This request has nothing to do with water chemistry, however, in you wealth of knowledge, I figure you may have come across a formulae for the following idea.

This is a runner-up to my way of thinking, brewing as of now.

With the typical "Amarikin" shouts of "Equestrian Urine" aside please.

I want to brew a Low-Calorie beer to my preference.
I'm thinking the only way is to follow the BMC way of brewing a gangly tasting high alcohol batch and then "watering it down" to a reasonable ABV. I would probably brew a really hard-assed brew of, say, 9% ABV utilizing amylase enzyme.

So my question to you, oh man of obvious great beer knowledge (not in jest), is there a formula to calc the ABV of a already done batch to add say, RO water -to a new target ABV. Ie. finished beer dilution target calculation?

The answer may be simple, as I have never considered of the idea at all.

I wish to brew a really hot shot tasting, nearly undrinkable beer, ferment out the calories, then dilute to a sessionable ABV of say 4.5% ABV, that "tastes great magnificent" is the gist of it.

TIA -to one and all...
 
This request has nothing to do with water chemistry, however, in you wealth of knowledge, I figure you may have come across a formulae for the following idea.

This is a runner-up to my way of thinking, brewing as of now.

With the typical "Amarikin" shouts of "Equestrian Urine" aside please.

I want to brew a Low-Calorie beer to my preference.
I'm thinking the only way is to follow the BMC way of brewing a gangly tasting high alcohol batch and then "watering it down" to a reasonable ABV. I would probably brew a really hard-assed brew of, say, 9% ABV utilizing amylase enzyme.

So my question to you, oh man of obvious great beer knowledge (not in jest), is there a formula to calc the ABV of a already done batch to add say, RO water -to a new target ABV. Ie. finished beer dilution target calculation?

The answer may be simple, as I have never considered of the idea at all.

I wish to brew a really hot shot tasting, nearly undrinkable beer, ferment out the calories, then dilute to a sessionable ABV of say 4.5% ABV, that "tastes great magnificent" is the gist of it.

TIA -to one and all...
Since it's ABV it's just a ratio calculation.
If you have X gallons of A %abv, and you want B %abv, the question is how much Y water to add, is just
y = x(A - B)/B

Example, 5 gallons of 9% and you want 4%, then add Y = 5 * (0.09 - 0.04)/0.04 = 6.25
 
Since it's ABV it's just a ratio calculation.
If you have X gallons of A %abv, and you want B %abv, the question is how much Y water to add, is just
y = x(A - B)/B

Example, 5 gallons of 9% and you want 4%, then add Y = 5 * (0.09 - 0.04)/0.04 = 6.25

This makes sense, so then I want a 4.5% beer after, I would need to brew a 9.5% abv or on down the line 8.5% ect then.
 
OK, so why do you have it in your head that beer watered down after fermentation will have more taste than beer made from watered down wort?
There is some effect that in high-gravity brewing the yeast is more expressive. Has to do with the additional stress in a high-alcohol environment. I am however unsure if this could not also be achieved with a lower pitch rate and similar methods...
 
There is some effect that in high-gravity brewing the yeast is more expressive. Has to do with the additional stress in a high-alcohol environment. I am however unsure if this could not also be achieved with a lower pitch rate and similar methods...
You know, I hadn't even thought of that. Excellent point!
 
So yeah, gotta admit that yeast expression was not the first thing that sprang to mind when I read "follow the BMC way of brewing a gangly tasting high alcohol batch."
I think my mind just skipped that sentence while reading. Not sure what it means. But I believe he is after more yeast expression.
 
OK, so why do you have it in your head that beer watered down after fermentation will have more taste than beer made from watered down wort?

As I said, in effect, I will make it over the top in taste, then "water it down"
 
This is an interesting exchange. And kudos to you @Colindo for identifying the yeast expression concept with higher abv beer. With this in mind, the question that comes to my mind is why not select a more expressive yeast than the BMC squad? Perhaps a good low attenuating English ale yeast rather than the typical BMC lager? I like English bitter because it offers a lot of character with lower alcohol levels.
 
I would imagine the BMC breweries are not brewing higher alcohol batches for more yeast expression but for economical reasons.

Somewhere on HBT is(are) a discussion(s) about brewing a higher ABV and watering it down after fermentation. Care needs to be take to deoxygenate the water you add or the shelf life will be greatly reduced.

Even if you might get more yeast expression from a higher ABV fermentation it might be lost once you water it back down.
 
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I would imagine the BMC breweries are not brewing higher alcohol batches for more yeast expression but for economical reasons.

Somewhere on HBT is(are) a discussion(s) about brewing a higher ABV and watering it down after fermentation. Care needs to be take to deoxygenate the water you add or the shelf life will be greatly reduced.

Even if you might get more yeast expression from a higher ABV fermentation it might be lost once you water it back down.

I have said it b4 and will say it again. The yeast I have in mind is Fistbump AKA Cry Havoc.
At high temps ~80-85F it develops the most Germanic tasting beer of any yeast albeit German yeast or not German yeast I have ever encountered, and it does not age out. This yeast will be Germanic even if watered down, it will follow thru!
I intend to use malt that will follow thru. I intend to use Rahr 6-row for grainy, and perhaps Warminster Marris Otter perhaps for the other for the bready and biscuity flavors.
It will be a Lagered afterwards. So it will be over the top @9.5% and still tasty after even a FG of 1.000 after amylase, THEN survive watering down for a low carb 4.5% ABV yet tasty beer.
 
Hoy you lot .... @AmarikinBrew asked for MY advice. So. I'm going to give it:

So my question to you, oh man of obvious great beer knowledge ...
Right! ... (cough, cough) ...

"The answer may be simple" ... and it is! First you want to cut your target back to its simplest components, like ...

(... Err, I presume you have access to a horse?).
 
Hoy you lot .... @AmarikinBrew asked for MY advice. So. I'm going to give it:


Right! ... (cough, cough) ...

"The answer may be simple" ... and it is! First you want to cut your target back to its simplest components, like ...

(... Err, I presume you have access to a horse?).
Well, I DO live in Texas! :ghostly:
 
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/miller-lite-really-triple-hopped.123937/

Here is used a combo of 6-row and pale, corn and amylase to mimic Miller Lite.

I would remove the corn, tho.

What I am proposing is a higher ABV brew that would taste STRONG in both grain and hops and yeast expression (in a good way), then like the BMC do, water it down to a lower calorie beer that has actual taste.

And maybe it'll be TRIPLE HOPPED!

Lager it for probably 3 months.

I'm getting on up in years and the mid section, well, is a middle section.

So I'm proposing a beer that is to MY taste, lower in fat producing calories AND tastes great -from a home brewer's perspective. Not trying to make a BMC for my friends ect. I'm not trying to clone Bud Lite, Miller Lite, or Michelob Ultra here. Thats not the idea, but maybe incorporate the BMC method
in doing so, and taking lessons from the BMC way of doing that.
Rotate the shield frequencies and get a better sessionable low cal beer than what can be bought in effect.

Any input is appreciated!
 
I think you should be able to brew what you are looking for without brewing to a higher ABV and diluting down. I would start by brewing a beer to single strength with the amylase to see how you like it if this is the first time using amylase.

There was a brewer here, Bracconiere, that used to use amylase to reduce residual sugar and he said his beers were still malty(could of been his homemade malt). I would think if you remove the residual sugars you would also remove malt flavor so I am curious how that works. I have some amylase to give it a try but not have got around to it yet.

I personally like a little body to my beer and when the gravity gets down around 1005 it is a bit watery for me, also carbonic bite seems to be more noticeable. I do brew some lagers in the 1040 range with german hops and yeast with late hops to get some hop character. I like those as they end up closer to 1010 when finished.
 
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What I am proposing is a higher ABV brew that would taste STRONG in both grain and hops and yeast expression (in a good way), then like the BMC do, water it down to a lower calorie beer that has actual taste.
And when you water it down all of those flavors will be watered down. If this really is a simple way to make a low ABV, low calorie beer with more flavor than BMC light lagers, then why isn't someone already using it to make a low ABV, low calorie beer with more flavor than BMC light lagers?
 
And when you water it down all of those flavors will be watered down. If this really is a simple way to make a low ABV, low calorie beer with more flavor than BMC light lagers, then why isn't someone already using it to make a low ABV, low calorie beer with more flavor than BMC light lagers?

Bean counters: Not cost effective?
 
What I am guessing is that they don't want to brew a STRONG HEARTY tasting brew in the 1st place, which is why the BMC beers are weak tasting. THEN it would not be cost effective if they DID.
 
What I am guessing...
And I'm guessing that it's weak tasting because they water it down. I also think that BMC sell low flavor beers because they have conditioned their customers to want low flavor beers. What I was trying to suggest is that if it really was this easy then perhaps some other big-ish brewer - I dunno, Sam Adams maybe - would be using this technique to make a low ABV, low calorie, high flavor beer.
 
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Brewing a 1.040 beer and using a high attenuating saison yeast at lowish temperatures might also be an option. Maybe belle saision at 20oC. The beer will end up under 1.005 but will still have a decent mouthfeel as it produces a lot of glycerol. There will also be some yeast expression, not sure if it would be exactly what you are looking for. You could ferment higher if needed.
 
Well, I DO live in Texas! :ghostly:
Hey? This bit of the thread got caught in an "off subject" transporter beam? I want one of them!

A couple of mistakes in your original post:

One, you might be complimenting a Brit you don't know.

Two, you're suggesting to a Brit watering down beer.

Both result in said Brit being very suspicious! In the case of "one" you get a flippant reply relating to "equestrian urine" (well, I had to get something in related to that choice of words). As for "complimenting a Brit you don't know, I can help a bit there; if I appear to be a bit of a head-case ... that's because I is! "Two"; I like to think I've never drank watered-down beer, but I probably have without knowing. Beer gets watered-down before fermenting ("parti-gyle") but, if it happens after fermentation, it's not advertised as being done. And I never do it, so can give no advice. I'm sure it can be, but surely it would mess up the "balance" of the beer so you'd know it was done?
 
Hey? This bit of the thread got caught in an "off subject" transporter beam? I want one of them!

A couple of mistakes in your original post:

One, you might be complimenting a Brit you don't know.

Two, you're suggesting to a Brit watering down beer.

Both result in said Brit being very suspicious! In the case of "one" you get a flippant reply relating to "equestrian urine" (well, I had to get something in related to that choice of words). As for "complimenting a Brit you don't know, I can help a bit there; if I appear to be a bit of a head-case ... that's because I is! "Two"; I like to think I've never drank watered-down beer, but I probably have without knowing. Beer gets watered-down before fermenting ("parti-gyle") but, if it happens after fermentation, it's not advertised as being done. And I never do it, so can give no advice. I'm sure it can be, but surely it would mess up the "balance" of the beer so you'd know it was done?

Well, actually, I was looking for a way to "calc" for a certain ABV (after water addition on a done beer).
That question was answered by other than you, in a reasonable manner by @balrog -Thanx!

I never intended to insinuate that Brits water the beer, Sorry if I came across that way.

I agree, the target beer would have to be somewhat viscus to survive watering down to have body afterwards, as well as over the top "malt flavorful", hoppy, and with yeast expression to be anywhere memorable after even one glass.

These items are not what amylase condone to a brew of any kind, however it does remove calories and I'm sure this is what the BMC do to the "light" beers.
 
(I'm not sure what occasion I have to thank for this earworm, but imagine the following lyrics to the tune of the Crash Test Dummies "MmmMmmMmm"and you'll know what I mean...)

"Once, there was this host who
Got into a beer shortage and couldn't serve his guests
But then an idea finally came up
His beer was served not pure but diluted now with sprite
He said that it's refreshing
And called the drink now Raaaaadler

MmmMmmMmmMmm
MmmMmmMmmMmm

Then there were the Aussies
not the one with kangaroos but with Mozart and with Freud.
But when they finally mixed too,
They did exchange the sprite for some soda.
They wouldn't call it Radler
But named it again "G'spitzer"

You're welcome.

Long story short: for our dear neighbours (no kangaroos in Austria) a Helles or sometimes even a Pils mixed with sparkling water ("sour radler") is something you get in almost every restaurant or pub, and nobody would call it "watery". It's just what you ordered, and it's refreshing. Probably a good "normal" Lager is just the base of a good spritzer.
And yes, the Austrians know how to brew good beers, and the call every mixed drink with sparkling water a "sprizer something", for what I learned.
 
I never intended to insinuate that Brits water the beer, Sorry if I came across that way.
Eh? Insinuate? Do shout it from the rooftops, they drink some terrible stuff over here. You can even try suggesting some of it is that "equestrian urie-thingy". I'm quite sure some of it is.
 
Eh? Insinuate? Do shout it from the rooftops, they drink some terrible stuff over here. You can even try suggesting some of it is that "equestrian urie-thingy". I'm quite sure some of it is.

Yes, we suffer that same thing over here, which is why I'm asking the beer minds on here if a better beer that has less calories yet "tastes great" could actually be done. Parts of this idea have been proven on here already.

Just seeing if it can be taken to the next level, and level out the belly so we can see our toes after a daily driver slogging back beer has been created. -At least for us older guys, -not that you in particular or anybody else has to be older or anything to contribute to the idea!
 
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