Ale yeast for Lager recipe?

[Nebraskan]

I am interested in seeing if I can get them to cross (Vosss Kveik X S-189) Ale x Lager strain that ferments a bit higher than the normal Lager strains. Would be interesting. Lager fermenting at 70-75 F, low esters, and then cold stabilize for about a week at VERY cold temps with a bit of gelatin fining when all done fermenting. THEN save the yeast to keep encouraging more cross breeding.

Years ago I tried breeding Pet Rocks, but found I just didn't have the stones for it....

 

[Nebraskan]

Last Sunday 12-10-17 I made up some Munich Dunkel https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/572090/ and used 50ml of Voss Kveik, 100ml of S-23 and 100ml of S-189 in a starter jar, and the starter was fermenting when I pitched it Sunday evening at 7:00 pm Monday morning it was going gang busters. Going very well by noon, and in the evening the air lock slowed down considerably. This morning 12-12-17 Tues, the airlock has settled down and no movement nor gas. So it completed in less than 2 days. At lunch today I plan to check to see what the hydrometer reading shows, but for all indication, it is done.

 

[Miraculix]

Last Sunday 12-10-17 I made up some Munich Dunkel https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/572090/ and used 50ml of Voss Kveik, 100ml of S-23 and 100ml of S-189 in a starter jar, and the starter was fermenting when I pitched it Sunday evening at 7:00 pm Monday morning it was going gang busters. Going very well by noon, and in the evening the air lock slowed down considerably. This morning 12-12-17 Tues, the airlock has settled down and no movement nor gas. So it completed in less than 2 days. At lunch today I plan to check to see what the hydrometer reading shows, but for all indication, it is done.

That surely is an interesting mix. Please let us know about the outcome and if it somehow changes from generation to generation when harvesting the yeast.

 

[Nebraskan]

Brix was 3.3 or S.G. of 1.0129 Tues evening. Tasted it and was good, no off flavors, but still a little spritzy, so probably will ferment slowly for a couple more days. No diacetyl or other off flavor detected.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Ive recently had very good luck with BR-97, very clean yeast at 62F, so clean the last 3 beers taste like a lager

 

[dmtaylor]

Ive recently had very good luck with BR-97, very clean yeast at 62F, so clean the last 3 beers taste like a lager

I think I like BRY-97. Not certain how clean it is as I have only used it once, but it made a good beer. It's worth some more experimentation.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

its my house yeast now, I top crop and save pure yeast, its so clean at low temps it actually strips some hop and malt flavor out so I have to adjust

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Ive recently had very good luck with BR-97, very clean yeast at 62F, so clean the last 3 beers taste like a lager

How well does it clear out? And does it leave a sparkling clear beer behind, or it it hazy?

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

its high flocculate so yes it clears very well if you can keep it cold, its not clear at first but drops while carbing

 

[suregork]

While this thread seems to be concentrating on 'kveik' yeasts at the moment, I thought I'd go back to the original question (ale yeast for lagers?) and bring up some interesting information about one of the commonly used homebrew lager strains: WLP800.

WLP800 is supposedly a lager yeast, and the Pilsner Urquell strain. Interestingly, this strain was included in a recent genome sequencing study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4825664/) by an Australian research group, and they found that WLP800 is actually not a lager yeast (Saccharomyces pastorianus (Saccharomyces cerevisiae x Saccharomyces eubayanus)) at all, but rather a 'pure' S. cerevisiae strain. So users of WLP800 have all along been brewing with an ale yeast when they've been making lagers. Whether this is the same strain that is used for Pilsner Urquell or not is unclear and a completely different question.

White Labs and the Verstrepen lab published their own genome sequencing study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27610566) last year as well, and in it they looked at the geno- and phenotypes of 157 S. cerevisiae strains. Unfortunately, the strain names are encoded and it is unclear what strain numbers correspond to what White Labs strains. I've done some decoding (for more information you can visit my blog; see signature) of a number of the strains in the study using sequence data of White Labs strains from other studies (including the Australian one mentioned above), and WLP800 seems to be included as Beer087. Interestingly, Beer087 seems to be closely related to Beer073, a strain which appears to be WLP320 American Hefe (not confirmed by DNA evidence, but other evidence suggests this; again check the blog). According to the publication, Beer087/WLP800 and Beer073/WLP320 are not only genetically similar, but they also seem phenotypically very similar (e.g. very similar ester profiles and growth temperature ranges). This would suggest that you can make a nice lager with WLP320 as well (especially if you use the lower temperatures that are normally used with WLP800).

Sorry for the long post, but hopefully someone found it interesting.

 

[Nebraskan]

I found it very interesting. Think about it. Once upon a time, German Lager beers only had the S. cerevisiae strain around. And they made their "lager" style of beers using it... until, S. eubayannus appeared and crossed and mutated into a whole different strain in the lagering caves of Germany. A yeast that survives and ferments in colder liquids, and as a result has a clean ferment characteristics. I think clean fermenting yeasts are out there, be they lager or ale strains and will probably ferment at higher temps and allow "lagering" to age out the beer. Just a take.

Right now, I racked and gelatin finned the last batch of Munich Dunkel that was made with the inclusion of 2 lager strains and 1 ale strain (Voss Kveik). The taste of the still green beer shows great promise, as it does not seem to entertain a lot of bitterness with the "yeast bite" I have heard about, even as young as it it. Remember, in Norway, they often start drinking the beer at the tail end of fermentation, IE as early as 2 days from the start of fermentation. So now it's outside, settling with the gelatin fining and cold temps to clear. Will rack again and then keg.

So it appears that people have been making their "lager" beers using an pure "ale" strain for some time, and not knowing it. How about that!

 

[dmtaylor]

Sorry for the long post, but hopefully someone found it interesting.

Fascinating!

 

[Nebraskan]

While this thread seems to be concentrating on 'kveik' yeasts at the moment, I thought I'd go back to the original question (ale yeast for lagers?) and bring up some interesting information about one of the commonly used homebrew lager strains: WLP800.

WLP800 is supposedly a lager yeast, and the Pilsner Urquell strain. Interestingly, this strain was included in a recent genome sequencing study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4825664/) by an Australian research group, and they found that WLP800 is actually not a lager yeast (Saccharomyces pastorianus (Saccharomyces cerevisiae x Saccharomyces eubayanus)) at all, but rather a 'pure' S. cerevisiae strain. So users of WLP800 have all along been brewing with an ale yeast when they've been making lagers. Whether this is the same strain that is used for Pilsner Urquell or not is unclear and a completely different question.

I've been pouring over the link you provided but haven't found that reference to the WLP800 strain. Is it mentioned in this study specifically?

 

[Lefou]

I have used WLP320 in the past for an American-style Hefeweizen beer.
Perhaps the other yeast isn't WLP800, but WLP080 instead?
Would I personally use WLP320 as a lager yeast? Probably not. Even though it yields a mild ale with few phenolics and esters you might encounter with typical German strains, the flocculation and sediment characteristics of 320 tend to make the beer cloudy unless there's sufficient cold storage time to settle suspended particulates after bottling.
I'm impatient and my wheat beers rarely last long, but I wouldn't hesitate to try White Labs Cream Ale yeast as an alternative "lager" yeast.
I have used WLP001 in the past. Aged and cold-conditioned for a long period, beers done with WLP001 California Ale clarify well but fermentation needs to stay near the lower end of that yeast's tolerance or it can lend a fruity essence, especially in higher gravity worts that are under pitched.

 

[dmtaylor]

I've been pouring over the link you provided but haven't found that reference to the WLP800 strain. Is it mentioned in this study specifically?

Table 1, near the bottom:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4825664/table/t1/

 

[Lefou]

Ok...I see it.
The difference between 800 and 080 is my mistake.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thinking such as this might just turn the entire bottom/top fermenting argument on its head. Or is that its bottom?

 

[Nebraskan]

Table 1, near the bottom:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4825664/table/t1/

Thanks so much for that. Looking down the list I see yeasts we use at Fenn Valley winery, Uvaferm 43, Vin13, DV-10, and some others. The aforementioned is our "workhorse" yeasts we use from year to year. U43 for Reds and Icewine, DV-10 almost exclusive for ciders, and some wines. PdM (which I assumed to be Prisse de Mousse ) http://mastervintner.com/lalvin-ec-1118-prise-de-mousse-wine-yeast/ is what one uses a lot for the production of wine for sparking (Champagne) wines both in primary and secondary fermentations. We also use quite a bit of Epernay II yeast aka EP2 for fruity esters on some wines.

 

[matzou]

Just thought I would report both experiment:

So the 34/70 fermented at 18°/64f then raised to 19°/68f with 100% pilsner malt(boiled 45 mins) and motueka(fwh/FO/dryhop) turned out really nice for an hybrid german/new zealandish pilsner.It took 4 days to reach FG, I then cold crash for 4 days with gelatin and bottled after these 8 days.

More surprisingly I managed to ferment a "Rauchbier" from BCS with the Voss kveik strain at 11c/52f !!!
I overpitched as much as I could with a 1L starter for 10L the lag time was a little bit more than 24h but it eventually started throwing more sulfur than the 34/70 warm.
It reached a fg of 1.017 from 1.056 after 5 days, I let it for a couple of days at this temp before raising to 30c/86f to ensure fg was reached, sure enough after 3 days at this temp and it was still at 1.017.
I then cold crashed fined with gelatin and finished to build the keezer before kegging it and force carbing it to be ready for christmas, I had the first few pints, and yeah it's clean and no "orangish" ester from the kveik.

Pretty happy with how turned those two experiment, especially the smoked one as it shows the versatility of the yeast from 42c/107f to 11c/52f!

 

[mj1angier]

LOL, the first part of this thread got me thinking about a yeast I signed up for today:
https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-vault
WLP611 New Nordic Yeast Blend

 

[Lefou]

White Labs is finally getting onboard with the Nordic strains I see.
If, or when, people realize the potential of Voss and "Hothead" strains the availability will become more common. As a seasonal hobbyist who tends to favor fall and winter, a great ale strain capable of tolerating summer would be a godsend.