A few basic electric questions

[Carolina_Matt]

I'll try to have at least 30a, just in case I decide to upgrade to a 5500W element at that point. I'm thinking it might make the most sense to get a 50a gfci breaker. I did check ebay, but a lot of them are used and I'd rather get a new one (or a Used - Like New from Amazon, which is essentially just a dented box item).

If I decide to go the 50a route, I suppose this wire wouldn't suffice since it's rated for 30a? If so, which would you guys recommend? The outlet will be within 2-3 feet of the panel in my garage, so I won't have to buy much wire and I'm not too concerned if the cost per foot is a little higher.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwi...x-SIMpull-CU-NM-B-W-G-Wire-63948499/204724935

 

[augiedoggy]

I'll try to have at least 30a, just in case I decide to upgrade to a 5500W element at that point. I'm thinking it might make the most sense to get a 50a gfci breaker. I did check ebay, but a lot of them are used and I'd rather get a new one (or a Used - Like New from Amazon, which is essentially just a dented box item).

If I decide to go the 50a route, I suppose this wire wouldn't suffice since it's rated for 30a? If so, which would you guys recommend? The outlet will be within 2-3 feet of the panel in my garage, so I won't have to buy much wire and I'm not too concerned if the cost per foot is a little higher.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwi...x-SIMpull-CU-NM-B-W-G-Wire-63948499/204724935

you can use a standard 30a breaker in the main panel and essentually use the spa panel would be used for gfci protection only and as a remote main shutoff if you went that route but honestly its kind of a wash. Depending on your main panel type.. heres a new 30a gfci breaker. theres a few from different sellers.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-...514722?hash=item2622bc2c62:g:QPkAAOSwFKddOjPv

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Circui...735&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

 

[golfindia]

If you put the 50a GFCI breaker in a separate box after the 30a breaker in your main panel, you can use 10g. Solid wire sucks to work with. If it's just a few feet, spring for stranded.

Used GFCI breakers are a bad idea. They have a life span, and lord only knows what you'll get from Ebay.

 

[IslandLizard]

Depending on your main panel type.. heres a new 30a gfci breaker.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-...514722?hash=item2622bc2c62:g:QPkAAOSwFKddOjPv

That's a single pole though. For 240V he needs a double pole breaker.

 

[augiedoggy]

That's a single pole though. For 240V he needs a double pole breaker.

good catch. totally missed that. it seems those are more$$

As far as ebay, I have a few thousand purchases now and only 2 bad experiences...
looking at the feedback helps.

 

[augiedoggy]

heres a used 2 pole one that comes with a 1 year warranty for $30 and the seller has over 3,000 sales with 99.9% positive feedback..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Westinghouse-QC-QCL2030G-2-POLE-120-240V-30-AMP-C-QCL-GROUND-FAULT/183854801529?epid=8026478761&_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item2ace99a279:g:360AAOSwpLVb9EVZ&enc=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&checksum=183854801529b50008764a2547899d37273600265580

heres a new cutler hammer style for $75

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Eaton-Cutl...311227&hash=item4d51d674e1:g:ctsAAOSwA3dYcXHX

and a new seimenns style for $56
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SIEMENS-QF...936181?hash=item340e1aca75:g:ucYAAOSw5uJdHVql

all 30a

 

[augiedoggy]

I actually have two brand new 60a 2pole square d style gfci breakers I bought by mistake before learning they were the wrong type.. one is in the box and one isnt.. I would sell them for $80 for the boxed one and $70 for the one without packaging if anyone is interested..

 

[Gibberoni]

heres a new cutler hammer style for $75

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Eaton-Cutl...311227&hash=item4d51d674e1:g:ctsAAOSwA3dYcXHX

This is what I am running, and I wired it up myself. No issues thus far with this breaker, as long as you have a CH or BR style panel.

Also helps that I work at Eaton (bought Cutler-Hammer a long time ago)

 

[Soulshine2]

I'll try to have at least 30a, just in case I decide to upgrade to a 5500W element at that point. I'm thinking it might make the most sense to get a 50a gfci breaker. I did check ebay, but a lot of them are used and I'd rather get a new one (or a Used - Like New from Amazon, which is essentially just a dented box item).

If I decide to go the 50a route, I suppose this wire wouldn't suffice since it's rated for 30a? If so, which would you guys recommend? The outlet will be within 2-3 feet of the panel in my garage, so I won't have to buy much wire and I'm not too concerned if the cost per foot is a little higher.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwi...x-SIMpull-CU-NM-B-W-G-Wire-63948499/204724935

re-read my post

 

[Bobby_M]

I'll try to have at least 30a, just in case I decide to upgrade to a 5500W element at that point. I'm thinking it might make the most sense to get a 50a gfci breaker. I did check ebay, but a lot of them are used and I'd rather get a new one (or a Used - Like New from Amazon, which is essentially just a dented box item).

If I decide to go the 50a route, I suppose this wire wouldn't suffice since it's rated for 30a? If so, which would you guys recommend? The outlet will be within 2-3 feet of the panel in my garage, so I won't have to buy much wire and I'm not too concerned if the cost per foot is a little higher.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwi...x-SIMpull-CU-NM-B-W-G-Wire-63948499/204724935

The wire size is what dictates the max capacity in amps you can use on that circuit. The upstream breaker cannot be larger than the wire's capacity.

If you use 10gauge wire, you need a 30 amp breaker upstream. It cannot be 50 or 60.

 

[mongoose33]

But you could put in the thicker wiring suitable to carry 60A, which would be 4-gauge wire and may break the bill if it's any more than a few feet.

I'm running a 60-amp breaker at the main panel that is feeding my sub-panel. I used 6-gauge wire to run from there to the sub-panel. Had an electrician friend work on this with me.

I'm feeding a 5500-watt brewing element, a 5000-watt garage heater, and two 20-amp circuits (though neither is close to 20 amps in terms of the load).

That's 22.91 amps for the element, 20.83 amps for the heater, my Penguin draws 3.75 amps (450 watts but there's probably a little surge on startup), and the RIMS element draws 13.33 amps. All together that's 60 amps plus, which exceeds the breaker feeding the subpanel.

BUT...I'm never running the 5500-watt boil element at the same time as the RIMS. The most I'd ever run simultaneously is the boil element, heater, and Penguin, which totals 47.49 amps on a 60-amp sub-panel w/ 60-amp breaker.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm running a 60-amp breaker at the main panel that is feeding my sub-panel. I used 6-gauge wire to run from there to the sub-panel. Had an electrician friend work on this with me.

I'm feeding a 5500-watt brewing element, a 5000-watt garage heater, and two 20-amp circuits (though neither is close to 20 amps in terms of the load).

That's 22.91 amps for the element, 20.83 amps for the heater, my Penguin draws 3.75 amps (450 watts but there's probably a little surge on startup), and the RIMS element draws 13.33 amps. All together that's 60 amps plus, which exceeds the breaker feeding the subpanel.

BUT...I'm never running the 5500-watt boil element at the same time as the RIMS. The most I'd ever run simultaneously is the boil element, heater, and Penguin, which totals 47.49 amps on a 60-amp sub-panel w/ 60-amp breaker.

I have a similiar setup only im running a 4500w hlt a 5500w BK and 1800w rims as well as 240v chiller all off a 30 amp circuit.. the chiller is off while I brew and my rims is only ever on while the HLT is cycling... since my pumps are all DC everything stays below 30a and I have an amp meter to monitor it.

 

[golfindia]

None of the hot water heating elements I've ever used will draw their max rated wattage anyway. They are always a little less.

 

[augiedoggy]

None of the hot water heating elements I've ever used will draw their max rated wattage anyway. They are always a little less.

this is true from what ive seen as well... i have a 4500w element that only draws 17 amps for example.. most 5500w elements are more like 5300-5400w

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm running a 60-amp breaker at the main panel that is feeding my sub-panel. I used 6-gauge wire to run from there to the sub-panel. Had an electrician friend work on this with me.

6-gauge wire is meant for circuits up to 55 Amps. I guess the extra 10% (5 Amps) over its rating before the breaker shuts off must be acceptable.

You may never pull the full 60A (or even the 55A) for any length of time or at all, but the next person plugging in a welder may. And I believe both the circuit and welder are still fine even when he welds a whole boat together using all 60 Amps all weekend long.

It's almost like my 25# dog taking the smaller pill, but he would need the next size up if he were 26#.

 

[augiedoggy]

6-gauge wire is meant for circuits up to 55 Amps. I guess the extra 10% (5 Amps) over its rating before the breaker shuts off must be acceptable.

You may never pull the full 60A (or even the 55A) for any length of time or at all, but the next person plugging in a welder may. And I believe both the circuit and welder are still fine even when he welds a whole boat together using all 60 Amps all weekend long.

It's almost like my 25# dog taking the smaller pill, but he would need the next size up if he were 26#.

This is news to me? the electrician used 6 gauge for the 60a circuits at my brewery and I was told to use 6awg for my 60a hot tub as well...
in fact everything im finding with google is telling me 6awg wire is rated for 60a? and 4awg is required for 70a

the confusion might be temp ratings? see the chart below.
http://www.aic-controls.com/wire-size

and this
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-appropriate-wire-size-for-a-60-amp-breaker.

again 80% rule doesnt apply for this application.

 

[itsnotrequired]

when discussing conductor/cable ampacity, it is important to note the type of conductor/cable, as well as the installation method. most homebrewers are working with nm-b (romex) and by rule, nm-b cables are limited to the ampacity values listed in the 60 degree C columns in the NEC ampacity charts. the cable itself is constructed for 90 degree C operation but for administrative purposes, it is limited to 60 degree C. for #6 copper, this is 55 amps. compare this to individual thhn conductors pulled through conduit. they would be rated for 65 amps, not 55 amps. thhn gets to use the 75 degree C ampacity columns.

ironically, thhn is also rated for 90 degree C operation. the catch here is that the terminations at circuit breakers, etc. are only rated for 75 degree C and that becomes the limiting factor. #6 thhn is actually rated 75 amps at 90 degree C but that extra ampacity compared to 75 degree C only comes into play when having to derate the ampacity rating of a conductor due to factors such as high ambient heat, a bunch of conductors in the same conduit, etc. this is where the extra 'oomph' of the 90 degree C ampacity column becomes beneficial, rather than upsizing the conductor (and sometimes you have to anyway if conditions are harsh enough). these situations don't typically come up in the homebrew scale but with nm-b cable, you are stuck with that 60 degree C ampacity column no matter what.

 

[augiedoggy]

Ive never seen 6awg romex... all the stuff Ive ever run was individual THHn conductors.. at least it looked like THHn insulation.

 

[Soulshine2]

Ive never seen 6awg romex... all the stuff Ive ever run was individual THHn conductors.. at least it looked like THHn insulation.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Southwire-Romex-SIMpull-50-ft-6-3-Non-Metallic-Wire-By-the-Roll/50188983

 

[augiedoggy]

Well I guess I lucked out by using the single conductor stuff for the full 60a..

 

[WesBrew]

excuse my lack of electrical knowledge. What is the purpose of the spa panel is these electrical setups? do you not still have to install a breaker in the main panel. I'm planning out something similar but having to go through a ceiling cavity to another room. its going to be a pita so I'm trying to plan some upgrade protection in it. maybe adding a second element, maybe figuring out how to set up another 120v outlet for pump and exhaust fan.


It helps me unwind, and sometimes it makes me feel mellow. lol haven't hear that in decades.

 

[Soulshine2]

please excuse my lack of electrical knowledge. What is the purpose of the spa panel is these electrical setups? do you not still have to install a breaker in the main panel. I'm planning out something similar but having to go through a ceiling cavity to another room. its going to be a pita so I'm trying to plan some upgrade protection in it. maybe adding a second element and maybe figuring out how to set up another 120v outlet for pump and exhaust fan.


It helps me unwind, and sometimes it makes me feel mellow. lol haven't hear that in decades.

no idea. I have all I need with a 50 amp 240v breaker.

 

[gromitdj]

please excuse my lack of electrical knowledge. What is the purpose of the spa panel is these electrical setups? do you not still have to install a breaker in the main panel. I'm planning out something similar but having to go through a ceiling cavity to another room. its going to be a pita so I'm trying to plan some upgrade protection in it. maybe adding a second element and maybe figuring out how to set up another 120v outlet for pump and exhaust fan.


It helps me unwind, and sometimes it makes me feel mellow. lol haven't hear that in decades.

The spa panel provides a cheap(er) way to provide the GFCI device. If you already have a 30 or 50 amp non-gfci breaker in your panel, it is sometimes more expensive to replace the breaker than it is to add the spa panel.

 

[WesBrew]

ah ok. to get running I need a single 30amp to run a 5500w element. If I were to say, up that to 50a, could that be split in to two 240v outlets and/or a 120v outlet so long as 50a is not exceeded at one time?

 

[Bobby_M]

It's less relevant at today's pricing but a 240v/30a GFCI breaker for my Square D Homeline panel was going for over $120. In contrast, a plain 240v/30a breaker was had for $12 and a spa panel with built in GFCI was another $55. $67 is cheaper than $120 and it also gives you a way of shutting power down more locally. These days the spa panel prices have gone up and the GFCI breakers have come down.

Yes if you have a 50amp breaker you can run that into a box and output to two 5500w elements. To get an accessory 120v output off that, you need to have four wires; hot hot neutral ground.