SYRACUSE NY - ROUND 4 Group Grain Buy

[rustbucket]

mine was FB-PALE x1

 

[CidahMastah]

gotcha rust - my bad, didn't write it in, but have you down

 

[rustbucket]

ok, cool,

hey, im not sure if you saw my message earliler about hard cider. I was wondering if you have a recipe you could pm me or put on here? i want to do some this year, since i heard the crop is going to be really good too (nice and sweet) im looking either for a dry cider or one similar to woodchucks amber or hornsby's cider amber

as well did you get my P/M about the syrup?

 

[CidahMastah]

Here is the final cut for the group buy, had some more change requests, so they are added in.

Pricing below I have listed as an estimate only - I will be inquiring about actual pricing soon.

 

[CidahMastah]

Hey Dan/Rust

About the cider I can definitely give you some tips for making a draft cider, or if you are looking for a still cider you can do that as well. Many people think cider making is like beer making... it isn't. Cider making is wine making. That means that you have to age it longer in general. Also, just like wine, your end product depends on your fruit. I.e. a good blend of apples is key to getting outstanding cider. Sadly there aren't any available english varieties locally available that I am aware of (why I planted my English orchard this year). So you are stuck with American dessert apples.

Some apples are rumored to produce a pretty good single variety ciders (mutsu/crispin, northern spy, some even say cortland). The problem is, as you noted, each year is different, sugar values are different, PH can vary. All this plays into apple selection, much like choosing wine grapes. You just don't know until the day of. Also, if you are buying bulk, you are at the whim of your distributor. i.e. good luck getting northern spy's, etc.

Last year I pressed 80 bushels and they were Gala, Red Delicious, JonaGold, Empire. Of the apples I wanted, only the two of them were available. It produced a fantastic drinking cider and a pretty darn good hard cider too. There are lots of ways to make it, different styles of cider etc. The first part is securing the apples. You can probably get away with drops on the cheap if you go pick from the local orchards, but I don't ever press drops.

So I guess what I am saying is... your apples available will determine your cider. Since you don't have an orchard you are at the whim of what they will sell you and how much you can afford. I would try to blend as many varieties as possible, try to make sure they aren't all sweets because you will get an insipid cider.

I don't have the time to go into all the details of apple selection, process, etc right now (a lot to type), but I would be happy to help you guys out. I know we are going to press again this year and I plan on getting at least 80 bushel, maybe 100. I have two Northern Spy trees, one Mac and one red delicious that are fully mature so I will be pressing those in addition to the rest. We have a family and friend event and send people home with a bunch of cider, we barely had enough to go around last year.

Are you guys looking to make a draft cider? I make a ton of that stuff, and my wife loves it. It is like a really tasty version of woodchuck or hornsby, etc.

 

[rustbucket]

I defiantly am looking to make draft cider... i just dont even know where to begin... i made a batch a long time a go (about 5 years ago) and it turned out awful. When this group buy comes through, when i meet up with you to grab my stuff we could talk about it in more detail?

I dont have a press, i was planning on buying already pressed cider from an orchard down the road (not pasteurized, and i think they mainly press mac's) But if that isnt the way to i am willing to learn... lol

 

[CidahMastah]

I defiantly am looking to make draft cider... i just dont even know where to begin... i made a batch a long time a go (about 5 years ago) and it turned out awful. When this group buy comes through, when i meet up with you to grab my stuff we could talk about it in more detail?

I dont have a press, i was planning on buying already pressed cider from an orchard down the road (not pasteurized, and i think they mainly press mac's) But if that isnt the way to i am willing to learn... lol

It would be great to talk about it in person, just easier that way. Right now I don't have a draft cider on tap, but I might the next time you are over.

Fresh pressed is the ONLY way IMO to make cider.

I made that graff stuff everyone raved about using store bought juice, using the method to a T. Stuff tasted like a wierd strong apple seltzer or something. Drinkable, but harsh and not a good drink IMO. I even let the stuff age about 8 months or so and it still wasn't something I would ever pay for. Ed worts I wasn't a fan of either. Not saying my stuff is gold, just saying that the store bought juice didn't get me excited about cider in the least. I am shocked at how many people are satisfied with it.

Just about any fresh pressed unpasteurized juice is better than store bought. You can make a great draft cider at least as good as woodchuck from fresh pressed, usually much better, YMMV.

 

[rustbucket]

do you use a cider yeast when you make it or do you let the natural yeast and bacteria do the work?

 

[CidahMastah]

do you use a cider yeast when you make it or do you let the natural yeast and bacteria do the work?

I have used quite a few different strains but my best result so far for a still wine like cider was the wyeast cider yeast. Just a bit more complex and interesting than others I had tried. I also really liked the turn out of L-1118 and wyeast dry mead yeast. I have used the wild yeast method before and have had mixed results (only have done this in the gallon size jugs). Last year I did 5 gallons wild and some mold started to grow on it. I sulphited and pitched 1118 and bam, cleaned up and was still good cider.

In all my ciders I encourage malolactic fermentation and it usually occurs naturally in about 90% or more of them. I have not used the store bought cultures though.

I have heard of people getting good results with some hefe yeasts, S-23 and a bunch of other random yeasts out there.

 

[rustbucket]

thats pretty interesting, Yeah i would love to try some of yours next time im up there if you have it ready to go... I like hard cider a lot too... i had one of woodchucks specialty ones (oaked aged) wow that one was tasty.


on another note i was wondering if you have any of the D2 hanging around still? cuz i need 3 lbs of it... i can order it but if i can get it at a cheaper price... that i would not mind

 

[CidahMastah]

thats pretty interesting, Yeah i would love to try some of yours next time im up there if you have it ready to go... I like hard cider a lot too... i had one of woodchucks specialty ones (oaked aged) wow that one was tasty.

The B!tch of that is. I bought an old whiskey barrel and planned to use it last year for cider. Unfortunately, it was just too darn committing to put 55G (about 1/4 of all the pressing) into that barrel so I chickened out. I might get into some oaking chips and try that this year on a smaller batch, maybe 5 gallons.

I also think I am going to try making a hybrid cider using some special B and a few other malts with a cider (maybe some marris otter, wheat etc.). I plan on calling that one "farmhand" since it will be geared towards the male palate. But that one will be a total mixed bag on how it turns out. Needless to say, I am very excited to fill my fermenters up with those experiments soon (probably Oct 15 or 22ish will be our pressing).

 

[CidahMastah]

By the way - I know this is my and rust's first year for growing hops.... Bierhaus any special way to tell when to start picking the hops? I have read the stage of the lupilin is important as to when you start to pick.

 

[rustbucket]

lol, 55g is a big commitment.. if did that i would get a 5-10g barrel

sounds intresting, if im around here when that stuff is done ill have to try it out

i think some of my hops are just about ready to be picked too, they are starting to turn brown and papery, i heard if you squeeze them and they spring right back to life (while sounding papery) they are ready to pick.. but i could be worng as if they are wet and not read they will take a bit longer to spring back into the original shape

 

[jhenderson27]

Sorry to thread jack but i told you guys a few grain buys ago i had a direct connection for hops this year fresh off the farm. They havent been harvested yet but are taking orders. Hops are wilamette, mt. Hood, fuggle, glacier, hallertau, and nugget.

Prices are :
2.50 a pound fresh hops need to be used asap.
10 a pound dry ground or dry whole
13 a pound pelleted.

Let me know of your interest as i intend to buy.

 

[CidahMastah]

Thanks for the hop picking tip. I have heard all sorts of ways, but that one seems pretty easy. I even ordered some mylar bags.


For the general routine of cider making I thought I would post what I do for reference:
Draft Cider:
1. Sanitize and clean fermenter.
2. Add unpast. juice to fermenter. (optional: You can add sugar, raisins etc if you want to goose the ABV but the more % alc the longer it typically needs to age).
3. Optional - sulphite with camden and let sit 24hours under airlock.
4. pitch yeast onto cider
5. let ferment 4-6 weeks (65-68F for most yeasts works well)
6. Once air lock starts to significantly slow, rack off into a new fermenter leaving lees behind and top off with more cider, or water if you don't have any cider.
7. leave for a minimum of 3 months. From start of ferment I typically will not touch the cider for 6 months except for the 1 racking at 4-6 weeks. Malollactic fermentation will usually take place right after the primary ferment for months so I let it do its thing.
8. For still cider you would sulphite at bottling and then you are done (bone dry cider with no sugar). See below for sweetening your cider without restarting ferment for a slightly sweet still cider.
9. For draft cider:
a. cold crash your carboy (not needed if you wait 6 months, no yeast will be in suspension).
b. Rack off desired cider amount into your bottling bucket (rack onto sorbate).
c. Add your sugar (fresh unpast. cider, AJ concentrate, plain sugar, etc.) to taste. For a dry cider 1.012 - 1.026 for sweet (woodchuck has 1.024).
d. Taste the cider:

1. if it is acidic, add some water to mellow it (sparingly)
2. if it is insipid and needs some tartness, add some malic acid, start with 1/2 to 1 tblspn for 5 gallons.

e. now rack your cider into your keg, onto crushed camden tablets.
f. carbonate and serve on the draft like you would a beer.

note:

remember that carbonating adds an acidity to the end product, so make the cider a tad sweeter than you like it, and the carb will balance it. Flavoring it is simply what you have to do based on the fact that we have american dessert apples to work with. It is very hard to get the malic tartness from the sweet dessert apples in an amount that you do not have to add a little malic acid. So making a darft cider with no add ins is very wonderful sounding, and nearly impossible with the apples we have here.

Anyway, that is the basic rundown. Of course, the most important part is the juice you get. This is why so many people report different results with yeasts, etc. You are never able to compare yeast results... apples to apples, because the results will be somewhat varied based on your blend.

When malolactic fermentation kicks in, the cider takes on a more vinous flavor and an almost buttery mouthfeel like a chardonnay of sorts, with apple nuance, like a wine and not like a draft cider. Draft ciders are sweet, so adding some sugar back in alone will bring you closer to a draft cider. You need to inhibit the restart of ferment though because wine yeasts tend to ferment dry.

Overall, you will get a better tasting draft cider than most commercial ones because you aren't watering the crap out of your cider and boosting the ABV with white sugar to maximize the yield.

 

[TwoGunz]

Did you guys spray/dust your hops? I planted two Liberty's in big pots next to my deck and the Japanese beetles got them pretty good. I had been using an organic fungicide/insectiside now and then. I'm debating putting some in the ground next year or just giving up. I'll get a small harvest this year (second year with the hops) but not much... just the top portions of some of the last growth got flowers.

 

[drmark50]

I am aware of the need to pick up. Will review my current inventory and my planned brews and let you know what I would like. Thanks for arranging.

 

[CidahMastah]

Sorry to thread jack but i told you guys a few grain buys ago i had a direct connection for hops this year fresh off the farm. They havent been harvested yet but are taking orders. Hops are wilamette, mt. Hood, fuggle, glacier, hallertau, and nugget.

Prices are :
2.50 a pound fresh hops need to be used asap.
10 a pound dry ground or dry whole
13 a pound pelleted.

Let me know of your interest as i intend to buy.

I will probably get down with this, is there a shipping cost (or local pick up only)? group discount rate if we buy a certain amount?

you know i have to be that guy and leverage the deal

 

[CidahMastah]

Did you guys spray/dust your hops? I planted two Liberty's in big pots next to my deck and the Japanese beetles got them pretty good. I had been using an organic fungicide/insectiside now and then. I'm debating putting some in the ground next year or just giving up. I'll get a small harvest this year (second year with the hops) but not much... just the top portions of some of the last growth got flowers.

I was lucky enough to not have any real pests this year my experience with organic sprays is... they don't work.

 

[rustbucket]

for my hops i did not use anything as for pest or fungus control.. they look really well.. i was seeing how they were today.. some of the ones are ready for a picking

 

[bierhaus15]

any special way to tell when to start picking the hops? I have read the stage of the lupilin is important as to when you start to pick.

Yep. The color of the hops in terms of development isn't nearly as important as the condition of the lupulin. Lots of people harvest once the leaves start to turn the slightest brown, but often that is too soon! Wait until the lupulin is bright yellow, very sticky to the touch, and the hop tears in half without too much resistance. If you need to cut the hop in half, wait longer. Also, an easy trick is to squeeze the cone in your hand. If the cone stays compact, you need to wait. It should feel dry, papery, and the slightest touch should leave your hands smelling like hops. Lastly, early August is awful early for CNY for hop harvesting. Most hops will be ready for picking around August 20th and some as late as early Septemeber. I think mine will be ready at the end of the month.

Here are some hops I dried right at their peak. You can bet these smelled amazing!

 

[bierhaus15]

As for the grain buy, so long as we are at 42 bags or whatever the maximum number is, no worries about those 4 bags for my friend. If we need more bags, I'll put the order in for my friend and I'm sure I could round up a few more people for 5 or so more bags.

Let me know.

 

[rustbucket]

bierhaus could you judge my hops for me if i post a photo?

i was judging my cascades yesterday and they seem to be really ready for picking (not the whole bine but a good cluster) they sound papery completely... (note 1st year plant)

 

[CidahMastah]

Cool info bierhaus - I know my hops are still quite green and hydrated. Based on your description I am thinking late august for my plants as well.

 

[drmark50]

Ok. Did a review and could use 3 bags. Don't need splits but will watch current splits to see if I can use some.

I couldn't get the catalog - asks for both username and pw. If I put greatmalt for both or just pw, no go. Am I doing something wrong?

 

[CidahMastah]

Ok. Did a review and could use 3 bags. Don't need splits but will watch current splits to see if I can use some.

I couldn't get the catalog - asks for both username and pw. If I put greatmalt for both or just pw, no go. Am I doing something wrong?

I just noticed this this morning, it has held me up from submitting our order. Will get back to you when I hear from our buyer.

Since you didn't make it onto this order (the orders are filled w/ 42 bags) I plan on holding off until we get more interest to complete a new order. However, once the order pops back up I can let you know.

 

[bierhaus15]

bierhaus could you judge my hops for me if i post a photo? i was judging my cascades yesterday and they seem to be really ready for picking (not the whole bine but a good cluster) they sound papery completely... (note 1st year plant)

Sure thing.

I got some 1st year Goldings that have a few clusters that also are starting to get papery, though they haven't developed much lupulin yet. First year plants can be a bit disappointing as AA% levels can be very low and the plant may not produce fully developed cones.

 

[CidahMastah]

First year plants can be a bit disappointing as AA% levels can be very low and the plant may not produce fully developed cones.

I was thinking of only using the hops I get for aromatic additions based on this. Maybe next year use some for bittering.

 

[jhenderson27]

No shipping costs on the hops. I will be doing a pickup. They will be stored at my place cold so they will be good. I dont know about price breaks for amounts until i see how much interest has been drummed up.

 

[rustbucket]

i might be interested on that hop buy, by any chance where is the pick located?

 

[CidahMastah]

No shipping costs on the hops. I will be doing a pickup. They will be stored at my place cold so they will be good. I dont know about price breaks for amounts until i see how much interest has been drummed up.

Will they be packed in mylar bags?

unfortunately I just looked at what I have and of the varieties listed I have a fair amount in stock. So I will have to see what is up and coming for brew time and get back with you.

 

[CidahMastah]

just a heads up gents - I was able to get the information over to the buyer today, he has submitted the request. Hopefully we will hear back today on the actual pricing for the grain bags.

For the old and new guys here is how it works:

1. I get actual pricing and NEW PROCESS you will pay me via paypal for your portion of the order.
2. Once I have received the actual full amount for the order I will then process a payment to the buyer.
3. Upon his receipt he will pay for the order and we should receive the order in several days.

I will repost the payment process once I have real $ figures for everyone.

*you have to be sure to make the payment as a personal gift*, otherwise it will charge me a fee.

*If you don't have a credit card on your paypal account, or the correct balance in you paypal, it will take 3-5 business days to clear. I will not place the order until all payments have cleared.

Let me know if you have nay questions.

 

[CidahMastah]

We had one substition from the order:

TF-FLBR - Flaked barley - 1/2 (TwoGunz, CidahMastah)

will be replaced with:

GP-FLBR - Flaked barley

 

[TwoGunz]

We had one substition from the order:

TF-FLBR - Flaked barley - 1/2 (TwoGunz, CidahMastah)

will be replaced with:

GP-FLBR - Flaked barley

Works for me

 

[rustbucket]

bierhaus

here is my cascades as of today.... (again 1st year plants) not sure if its easy to see with the colors.. i took it on the hood of my car prob would have been easier on white paper

some of them feel papery to the touch, and if you squish them they form right back into place, they smell good when you rub the oils out, but they smell like garlic to me standing there (could be my hands have the smell since i used garlic yesterday)

 

[jhenderson27]

Right here in Canandaigua.

 

[CidahMastah]

bierhaus

here is my cascades as of today.... (again 1st year plants) not sure if its easy to see with the colors.. i took it on the hood of my car prob would have been easier on white paper

some of them feel papery to the touch, and if you squish them they form right back into place, they smell good when you rub the oils out, but they smell like garlic to me standing there (could be my hands have the smell since i used garlic yesterday)

Those look too green (hydrated) to me and not dry papery (not that I am the expert).

While the leaves have brown tips, I don't think that is due to the maturity of the plant. That looks like it s due to sun exposure and/or too little or too much water, IMO. I see that with a lot of the tree leaves in periods of high heat and lack of rain or over watering.

I think you should let them wait.

Nice pics though!

 

[rustbucket]

well thats good to know, i picked just the one today... so ill let them sit for a few more weeks...

 

[CidahMastah]

Just another heads up - I PMed my paypal information to everyone.

1. Don't delete that information, you will need it to make payment
2. If you didn't receive the PM with my email for paypal, then let me know

Still haven't heard back on actuals. Should hear in the next day or so.

 

[drmark50]

Sounds good. I am ok on grain for the next few brews so the timing will be good for the next order.