Environmental Impact of Homebrewing

[eriktlupus]

i collect rainwater in 4 barrels here, this is then used as my chiller water running from a full barrell to an emptier one. the very hot first run-off is also used to clean my mash tun and utensils. after cooling the water is then used on my landscape and veggie garden.

all spent grains hit a compost pile mixed in with some horse manure from the boarding facility next door.

 

[Pappers_]

Absolutely, I'm sure that the village here would definitely not allow a compost pile. For composting grains, what's the method you use?

I live in Jefferson Park. Ours is not a compost pile, but a compost bin. It's actually right next to the fence that borders our neighbor's back door. Initially, all parties were worried that there might be a smell issue. We realized that, if you follow the guidelines for what to compost and what not to compost, there is really no noticeable smell. It's been there for 3 years, and there have been no complaints.

 

[GuitarBob]

Maybe someone from the other perspective can explain to me how my environmentalism is so backward and threatening. I just don't get it.

There have been some radical enviromentalists in the news lately that have talked about the need for economy killing carbon taxes, banning certain vehicles, and limiting population growth all for the sake of limiting the production of a gas that is basically plant food.

When enviromentalism gets involved in politics then it becomes very threatening. My freedom and economic well-being are threatened by enviromentalism.

Look at the high cost of energy, and it's all a result of us refusing to use our own resources in the name of enviromentalism. Maybe you can afford it, but the very poor in this country are having it very tough because of the ideology you believe in.

I know this post will probably be deleted, but I had to answer the guy's question. It just drives me nuts that some people can't understand why someone would have a problem with enviromentalism.

 

[ThickHead]

When enviromentalism gets involved in politics then it becomes very threatening. My freedom and economic well-being are threatened by enviromentalism.

Environmentalism is not in and of itself political. Politics is a platform for creating policy, policy dictates law, law dictates behavior, etc., etc., etc. (well...it's supposed to work that way anyway. Typically self-interest governs all).

Anyway...the environment is best served by those who act in it;s interest. I am happy to see the OP's interest in doing what can be done to decrease the environmental impact of any endeavor. Action is the only real vehicle of progress and any truly successful environmental reform happens one person at a time.

 

[FreakinA]

If you want to be green, shop at Wal-mart. Wal-mart is aggressivly becoming the most green company out there, and they are doing it in a way that will actually take effect. I am no environmental hippie, I just have been taking a Supply Chain management class with Dooley, an environmental supply chain genius working with Wal-mart on the green efficiency index.
To read more http://www.renewablechoice.com/blog-walmart-drive-to-improve-product-sustainability.html?tid=23
and Dooley http://www.public.asu.edu/~kdooley/

 

[Pappers_]

I urge you (or anyone else) to start a new thread debating environmentalism in the debate forum. This is not the right place for those posts - this thread is for brewers to discuss ways to brew in sustainable and environmentally aware ways. If you don't wish to do that, great, but please don't derail this thread with off-topic posts. Start a thread in the debate forum instead.

There have been some radical enviromentalists in the news lately that have talked about the need for economy killing carbon taxes, banning certain vehicles, and limiting population growth all for the sake of limiting the production of a gas that is basically plant food.

When enviromentalism gets involved in politics then it becomes very threatening. My freedom and economic well-being are threatened by enviromentalism.

Look at the high cost of energy, and it's all a result of us refusing to use our own resources in the name of enviromentalism. Maybe you can afford it, but the very poor in this country are having it very tough because of the ideology you believe in.

I know this post will probably be deleted, but I had to answer the guy's question. It just drives me nuts that some people can't understand why someone would have a problem with enviromentalism.

 

[Pappers_]

I think my earlier question might have gotten lost in the off-topic noise - how do you compost with spent grains? Mix it with lawn clippings, organic kitchen waste, etc? If you're constantly adding spent grains to the bin, how do you get the composted material out? Or do you use two bins that you rotate? Thanks!

 

[Parker36]

I think my earlier question might have gotten lost in the off-topic noise - how do you compost with spent grains? Mix it with lawn clippings, organic kitchen waste, etc? If you're constantly adding spent grains to the bin, how do you get the composted material out? Or do you use two bins that you rotate? Thanks!

I mix a bunch of other stuff in with it and turn over/mix it up every once in a while. The grains are excellent though, because it comes with a bunch of enzymes that help break down some of the stuff.

I would usually only spread the compost in the spring, so it had time to do its thing, but a pair of heaps works too.

 

[Pappers_]

Hi Parker - do you use a bin or a pile? I know I will have to use a bin because of village regulations. Anyone have any bin recommendations?

 

[jbambuti]

I currently only do steeping grains, so I don't have 10 or 12 lbs. to add to the compost bin at a time. However, unless you're adding spent grains at an amazing rate, it should compost just like everything else. You do need to stir the compost once a week or so, to mix everything together. You should also keep it somewhat moist. Easy in the summer, but a little tougher in the winter. Well tended compost is supposed to keep working throughout the winter, but ours tends to freeze. In the spring, I add some nitrogen (manure, etc.) and it starts cooking again.

I would actually think that spent grains would be good 'brown matter', like coffee grounds. A balance of 'green matter' and 'brown matter' make the best compost. Grass clippings are ok, but too much at a time can ruin the balance. You can also compost paper towels, but too much bleached paper at a time can have a detrimental effect.

Our bin has a sliding door at the bottom where you can harvest the compost when it's ready. There are other methods, but this is the one I'm familiar with.

 

[jbambuti]

It just drives me nuts that some people can't understand why someone would have a problem with enviromentalism.

My environmentalism is not political at all. I was merely speaking to the quest many of us have to clean up our own acts.

 

[Pappers_]

Thanks, jbambuti, very helpful! Any kitchen organic matter that shouldn't go in the compost?

When it's not frozen (!), how long does it take to convert spent grains into compost?

Again, thanks for the helpful info!

 

[agroff383]

There have been some radical enviromentalists in the news lately that have talked about the need for economy killing carbon taxes, banning certain vehicles, and limiting population growth all for the sake of limiting the production of a gas that is basically plant food.

When enviromentalism gets involved in politics then it becomes very threatening. My freedom and economic well-being are threatened by enviromentalism.

Look at the high cost of energy, and it's all a result of us refusing to use our own resources in the name of enviromentalism. Maybe you can afford it, but the very poor in this country are having it very tough because of the ideology you believe in.

I know this post will probably be deleted, but I had to answer the guy's question. It just drives me nuts that some people can't understand why someone would have a problem with enviromentalism.

Well said.

 

[katja]

Compost in a sunny area if you can, it will help speed things up. Compost bins speed things up as well. I like a compost pile though because when it is well-established it's so easy to dig out the rich soil from below. I don't put animal matter other than egg shells into the compost because of attracting critters. Probably depends on where you live.

 

[Pappers_]

Thanks, Katja. Good thought about meat scraps.
If your bin is secure, though, and can keep wild critters out, would it be ok to put meat scraps in?

Another question - do you need to add anything to the bin to help with the breaking down and composting, like worms?

Compost in a sunny area if you can, it will help speed things up. Compost bins speed things up as well. I like a compost pile though because when it is well-established it's so easy to dig out the rich soil from below. I don't put animal matter other than egg shells into the compost because of attracting critters. Probably depends on where you live.

 

[Catt22]

FWIW, ideally you want to keep the carbon to nitrogen ratio at 30 or lower. Matter with a high carbon content is stuff like dry leaves or sawdust. The nitrogen bearing material are things like fresh grass clippings and other green vegetable matter. The ratio need not be exact and most of us have no way of measuring it anyway. An excess of nitrogen in the mix can result in the release of ammonia fumes. When the ratio is too high (too much carbon and not enough nitrogen), as with a pile of sawdust or dry leaves, the decaying process will be very slow. The bacteria that do most of the work are the aerobic type and for this reason it is beneficial to turn the pile to which allows oxygen to penetrate the mix. Aerobic bacteria don't produce obnoxious odors as will the anaerobic type. You do want to avoid any materials that could turn rancid such as meat scraps or animal fats. It's possible to use this material sparingly if it is well covered or buried deep within the pile. You also want to keep the pile damp to promote rapid decomposition.

Spent grain decomposes fairly quickly. Depending on the ambient temperatures, moisture available and the availablity of oxygen and nitrogen it can break down pretty well in a matter of a few weeks. I have found the spent grain to be an excellent material for compost. I also like to dump any remaining mash liquid and the fermenter dregs onto the pile. That really seems to give it a boost. There will be a myriad of bacteria, insects and worms working to break down the organic material. Big fat earthworms in the pile are a very good sign that all is well. You need not put a lot of effort into turning the pile frequently or at all, for that matter. The decomposition will happen eventually with or without your assistance, but it will happen faster with a little help from you. It's also good exercise. Much like beer, it's pretty difficult to screw it up. The most important thing is to put the finished compost to use in your garden and flower beds. I've been making compost tea which is the current fad among gardeners. There are mixed opinions on how beneficial it is. I have not been using it long enough to provide a fair evaluation. I will withold my judgment until at least the middle of next summer while continuing to use it regularly. To make compost tea, you put several pounds of finished compost in a five gallon bucket, fill with water and add about an ounce of molasses. Then you aerate the mix with an aquarium pump for three or four days. At that point you strain it through some cheesecloth and use a spinkling can to apply it to your garden plants or lawn. The dregs can be returned to the compost pile or mixed into the garden soil as you would regular compost. I've gone a step further and rigged up a hose end venturi pump that pulls the mixture from the bucket and mixes it with the hose water so I can easily distribute it on the lawn and garden. I rigged up the bucket with one of our famous stainless braids and a spigot like you would a mash tun which filters out the compost trub. It's compost mashing and lautering! Works like a charm. You can get the venturi pump thing for cheap at Home Depot or Lowes. It's essentially one of those gizmos that we used to use to empty a water bed. Remember water beds? You youngsters probably don't, but I do. Boy did they suck!

 

[northernlad]

You get out what you put into a compost. If you put GVM (green vegetable matter) that has gone to seed, expect those things to grow where you apply your finished product. If you put in diseased plant waste expect that to effect your new plants. If you have enough moisture and a good balance between green and brown vegetation breakdown will happen. My compost pile did nothing for a year because I had it under a tree and it did not get enough moisture. Plus I had way too many dead leaves. Lesson learned.

As a rule: No protein waste in your compost. Cooked or otherwise.

 

[Pappers_]

Thanks, Catt, very helpful. Adding trub and other fermentation dregs is a good idea.

At my current brewing schedule, I'm adding about 280 lbs per year of spent grains to the landfill that I could be composting.

Thanks everyone for all the composting info!

 

[katja]

Thanks, Katja. Good thought about meat scraps.
If your bin is secure, though, and can keep wild critters out, would it be ok to put meat scraps in?

Another question - do you need to add anything to the bin to help with the breaking down and composting, like worms?

Whoa, sounds like Catt22 has it all covered. You can compost just about anything not formulated in a research lab, right down to human waste. I would just do some reading if you are composting significant quantities of anything other than veggie matter. Composting animal products can produce undesirable smells and flies (think roadkill). If it's just a little bit I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I don't use a bin, although my parents switched to a bin after decades of regular posting. There are special bins for vermicomposting (worms!). Growing up we used to dig for worms in the compost pile to transplant them in the veggie garden, which is so NOT high tech. If you don't use a bin, the worms will find their way into your compost

As a general reply to this whole topic, environmentalism is fine, but conservation is better! Hey your grandma who waved a crooked finger at you while admonishing "waste not want not" was probably not some crazy green-peace activist. I love love love the fact that people here want to talk about small, practicable steps that anyone can do.

 

[Catt22]

I agree that diseased plant material should not be added to the compost pile. It's best to burn them first and then add the ashes to the pile. Burning yard wast, however, is prohibited in many areas, so that may not be an option.

Weed seeds are a different matter. A healthy compost pile can heat up considerably and seeds subjected to the high temperatures that the thermophilic bacteria generate, cannot survive for long. I put weeds that have gone to seed into the center of the pile where the temperatures are highest for just this reason. Also, I've read that seeds that pass through a worms digestive system will not germinate. Compost is very seldom completely free of weed seed, but I think the benefits of using the compost outweigh the minor inconvenience of some weeds it may introduce into the garden.

 

[Steelers77]

A little fyi when it comes to composting grain; since it's slightly acidic add some gysym to the pile to neutralize it. Other than that compost away. If you have a farm close as I do you can give them your spent grains the cows will eat it.

 

[eriktlupus]

Hi Parker - do you use a bin or a pile? I know I will have to use a bin because of village regulations. Anyone have any bin recommendations?

my local county extension sold some a few yrs ago for basically cost. think a half 55g barrel with the bottom being a removable lid and open to the soil on the bottom with a chute to pull finished out the bottom.

Thanks, Katja. Good thought about meat scraps.
If your bin is secure, though, and can keep wild critters out, would it be ok to put meat scraps in?

Another question - do you need to add anything to the bin to help with the breaking down and composting, like worms?

no meats or animal protiens (bone meal is okay in small qtys). when your going good the worms will find it themselves but if you want a headstart go get some redworms from a baitshop.

i cover my pile in winter to help protect it from freezing. no matter what your conversion is going to slow down in cold weather but it will still happen (think lager versus ale yeasts).

 

[Coprinus]

I don't have the space to compost anymore, but when I did, I used to love to dump the organic waste from brewing into it. The thought that a similar process that produces beer also produces great garden soil is wonderful! One time I saw a paw of some critter reaching out from under the pile to grab spent grain. I think it was a mole. Probably the best treat it ever had!

 

[DRoyLenz]

My apologies, because I don't plan on contributing to the discussion here, I just wanted to point out how much I love HBT. Who would've thought there would be such a lively discussion surrounding proper composting techniques. Even more so, who would've thought I would find it so interesting?!?

 

[mitch171]

Ok so composting is great and I plan on doing it. Right now I dump the spent grain in an area that we dump all out grape skins/seeds/stems. So I guess I am kinda composting but not. The question I have now is if I compost in a bin or some tamperproof container and I add hop left overs, will the resulting compost be of danger to my dog? He likes to eat some grass and root around in the dirt some. I am guessing the components that are dangerous to dogs will either be quite diluted or break down completely.

 

[Brewmoor]

There have been some radical enviromentalists in the news lately that have talked about the need for economy killing carbon taxes, banning certain vehicles, and limiting population growth all for the sake of limiting the production of a gas that is basically plant food.

When enviromentalism gets involved in politics then it becomes very threatening. My freedom and economic well-being are threatened by enviromentalism.

Look at the high cost of energy, and it's all a result of us refusing to use our own resources in the name of enviromentalism. Maybe you can afford it, but the very poor in this country are having it very tough because of the ideology you believe in.

I know this post will probably be deleted, but I had to answer the guy's question. It just drives me nuts that some people can't understand why someone would have a problem with environmentalism.

I believe you are on to something. I live in Colorado where these issues seem to be even more prevalent then in most other states. We have Weird water laws, our governments spend tons of money on seemingly wasteful projects all in the name of the environment. Now I like to live as sustainable as possible. I try not to waste water, I recycle, I turn my lights off, and I join river cleanup crews every year to do my part in cleaning up.

I however realize that when we push this on people as matter of policy, bad things are going to occur. I believe the answers lie within this country returning to the days when we were producers. If we still made quality products here in this country it would help. The products would not wear out as fast and we would not need the huge amounts of extra energy to transport it around the world. Quit buying stuff from china and start making it at home.

Just my 2 cents. I feel we would be better served if we live more off of what we can get locally. That is an idea even the hippies can live with.

 

[Yooper]

Ok so composting is great and I plan on doing it. Right now I dump the spent grain in an area that we dump all out grape skins/seeds/stems. So I guess I am kinda composting but not. The question I have now is if I compost in a bin or some tamperproof container and I add hop left overs, will the resulting compost be of danger to my dog? He likes to eat some grass and root around in the dirt some. I am guessing the components that are dangerous to dogs will either be quite diluted or break down completely.

I have no scientific basis for this (but when has that ever stopped me from blabbering.........)

Anyway- the point of the composting is so that it completely breaks down. So, it actually becomes a very rich soil. Even if hops were in it, it would be broken down completely. So, unless the dog ate pounds of soil loaded with tons of hops, I can't imagine it being an issue. The compost is well mixed, and there are other items in there besides hops.

There's some debate on exactly how toxic hops are to dogs, anyway, but I'm not wanting to reopen THAT debate on top of this one! Suffice it to say, I keep the dog out of the compost bin (not just hops in there, but other things I don't want him to eat, too!) but don't try to keep him out of every area of soil in my yard. We compost almost everything- from spent grain and hops, to leaves, food scraps, etc.

 

[Pappers_]

I believe you are on to something. I live in Colorado where these issues seem to be even more prevalent then in most other states. We have Weird water laws, our governments spend tons of money on seemingly wasteful projects all in the name of the environment. Now I like to live as sustainable as possible. I try not to waste water, I recycle, I turn my lights off, and I join river cleanup crews every year to do my part in cleaning up.

I however realize that when we push this on people as matter of policy, bad things are going to occur. I believe the answers lie within this country returning to the days when we were producers. If we still made quality products here in this country it would help. The products would not wear out as fast and we would not need the huge amounts of extra energy to transport it around the world. Quit buying stuff from china and start making it at home.

Just my 2 cents. I feel we would be better served if we live more off of what we can get locally. That is an idea even the hippies can live with.

Brewmoor, after some serious off-topic posting and derailing of this thread over the past few days, please keep the debate over environmentalism to the debate forum. This thread is for those who wish to brew with an eye to conservation, ecology and sustainability to discuss tips, ideas and processes.

I, too, like the idea of "local" - have you found ways to translate that into your brewing? Folks here are convincing me to grow my own hops (something I thought about last year but decided to forgo).

 

[yogensha]

I'm a total compost newbie, but very fascinated. I made some this summer with some yard waste and I'm guessing it was too high in nitrogen because it gave off a bit of an ammonia smell. Would spent grain be considered a "brown" contribution? How successful would composting the spent grain alone be? If not, what are some examples of common items that could be added to help and in what amounts?

 

[Pappers_]

Going back to Brewmoor's and other's ideas about using local ingredients -

Recently, I racked a sweet stout onto some cherry puree. I used the Oregon something-or-other brand of pureed fruits that many HBS's sell. I could have made this a more local brew by using locally grown fruit. Does anyone do this?

 

[Catt22]

I'm a total compost newbie, but very fascinated. I made some this summer with some yard waste and I'm guessing it was too high in nitrogen because it gave off a bit of an ammonia smell. Would spent grain be considered a "brown" contribution? How successful would composting the spent grain alone be? If not, what are some examples of common items that could be added to help and in what amounts?

Yes, spent grain is mostly a carbon contribution to the pile. This is good as your carbon/nitrogen ratio appears to be a bit too low if you were getting ammonia fumes.

I do not recommend composting the spent grain alone. There will be some sugars retained in the grain. What can happen is that a pile of wet spent grain will usually be very dense and it will be lacking in the oxygen required for aerobic bacteria to flourish. Additionally, the spent grain will usually have some sugars remaining. The combination of the lack of oxygen and the sugars can lead to a dominance of anaerobic bacteria. These can produce some horrendous odors. Think rotting corpse smell. It can be really bad. So, what you want to do is mix the spent grain into the pile so it does not compact into a single anaerobic lump. You can also spread it out over the pile which is what I usually do when I'm too lazy to mix it in.

 

[DRoyLenz]

I'm thinking about those probiotics that you eat to aid your digestion. Is there anything you can add to compost to promote healthy bacterial activity?

 

[Catt22]

I'm thinking about those probiotics that you eat to aid your digestion. Is there anything you can add to compost to promote healthy bacterial activity?

Water, oxygen & nitrogen are the most important. Keep it damp. Turn the pile to aerate. Add green vegetable matter as a nitrogen source. You can also use ordinary high nitrogen fertilizer to accelerate the process. Again, too much and the excess will disipate as ammonia fumes. Those biotic additives sold for compost piles are bull crud. There will be more than enough naturally occurring bacteria and mold in the pile. They are everywhere and will rapidly multiply when the conditions are favorable. Usually, the conditions don't get much better than in a well fed and aerated compost pile. It will be a popular hang out indeed. The best thing to do when you have mostly a big pile of dry dead leaves is to mix in some fertilizer and wet it down. Keep it moist and soon it will be rockin.

An active, healthy compost pile generates considerable heat. I occasionally find a deer lying on the pile enjoying the warmth when it begins to get cold out. Sometimes more than one.

 

[Brewmoor]

Brewmoor, after some serious off-topic posting and derailing of this thread over the past few days, please keep the debate over environmentalism to the debate forum. This thread is for those who wish to brew with an eye to conservation, ecology and sustainability to discuss tips, ideas and processes.

I, too, like the idea of "local" - have you found ways to translate that into your brewing? Folks here are convincing me to grow my own hops (something I thought about last year but decided to forgo).

I believe this topic's name is Environmental Impact of homebrewing. So environmental debate is exactly what is being asked for. Maybe this thread needs to be moved.

So I guess I will tie my thoughts into the real world. New Belgium and other hip breweries try their best to use local sources for their products. New Belgium recycles and conditions their grey water into a pond, lets microbes eat the bad stuff and then send it back to the municipal waste centers. They have a huge balloon where they trap gases and send it back into factory to use for energy.

If you get creative you can find all sorts of ways have less of an impact with your brewing.

 

[FreakinA]

I am suprised bigger macros such as BMC have not moved toward the green movement. Companies like Wal-mart are saving a metic arseload of money by doing it, I'm sure there is alot that could be done to the big breweries to make them more efficient.

 

[Brewmoor]

I am suprised bigger macros such as BMC have not moved toward the green movement. Companies like Wal-mart are saving a metic arseload of money by doing it, I'm sure there is alot that could be done to the big breweries to make them more efficient.

Last time I was at the Coors Factory they told us about some things they are doing to lessen their impacts. I know for sure they send all their spent grain out to farmers for livestock to eat. New Belgium does the same. They also use water ponds for cooling and they mentioned something special about the ponds but I forget now. Also New Belgium uses wind power for factory. I think Coors is also using a percentage of wind power. There are several very large wind farms along I-25 up through wyoming.

 

[kornkob]

I am suprised bigger macros such as BMC have not moved toward the green movement. Companies like Wal-mart are saving a metic arseload of money by doing it, I'm sure there is alot that could be done to the big breweries to make them more efficient.

Companies like wall mart (and I'm sure the BMCs are doing it too) ARE doing 'green' things to save money. Often times when a company starts bragging about how 'green' they are what is really going on is normal business efficiency processes are being implemented and they are presenting that process publicly in a way that makes them seem 'responsible' and 'green'. Only now they are talking about it because it is popular to be seen as aware of one's 'footprint'.

 

[Catt22]

Composting is a rotten thing to do!

 

[ThickHead]

Composting is a rotten thing to do!

Quite literally...

 

[Pappers_]

Are there any small scale, locally-focused maltsters? Are there any farmers who both grow the grain and malt it, or is that just archaic in these modern times?