Environmental Impact of Homebrewing

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Here's another idea . . .

A pub here in Chicago that I'm fond of does not recycle their bottles - just throws them away. They carry a great selection of craft beers, so not all the bottles have the threaded tops. The folks at this bar like me, so if I remind them to save some for me for a couple of days, they do. I like the notion of not buying new bottles and reusing some of these bottles that were headed to the landfill. Even if they were going to recycle (I have no idea why they don't), reuse is better than recycle in many ways.
 
Here is a serious suggestion....when you are brewing, RDWHAHB and wait to flush the toilet until you are done brewing. Especially you who do it standing and leave the seat up. Drink locally, flush seldom...
 
I think this thread can be divided into two groups: those that are interested in how their activities (brewing and otherwise) might be done in a more environmentally-friendly manner, and those that don't really care one way or the other. Unsurprisingly, the more disparaging comments come from those who don't care.

I'm always surprised at the negative comments some have against environmentalism. You might be a huge polluter, but I don't understand how you could be opposed to polluting less, using less energy, and generally trying to have as little negative effect on the planet as possible. Saying that pollution is happening anyway and that there's no reason to worry about my activities is kind of like saying that donating to a charity that feeds people is useless because your donation can't stop world hunger.

I'm not the greenest person I know, but I do what I can to reduce my negative impact on the environment. Some posters figure that, since their lineage will end soon, who cares? Well, I'd like my son to grow up in a world that isn't worse (even in a very small way) due to my personal choices. Yeah, it might be somewhat of a pipe dream right now, but if everyone did just a little bit, then the overall impact would be much greater.

Maybe someone from the other perspective can explain to me how my environmentalism is so backward and threatening. I just don't get it. :confused:
 
As for me and my brewery...

I use electric as I don't have natural gas available. Stainless immersion heaters. This is cheaper, and greener. It would be greener if we used nuclear power but the Chicken Littles and the NIMBYs are too scared of it.

My chill water is recirculated with ice coming in once the delta t of the chill water drops too much. The waste water is used to clean the bird droppings from my deck as it seems to hot to water a plant with and storing it would just be a stupid waste of labor.

My spent grain is stacked up outside to "compost" next to my annoying neighbors property line. I co-mingled herbivore manure from the zoo as well.

My yeast farts are negligible to my own after a night of drinking and eating manly foods while burning firewood in my back yard. In the grand scheme, I think my green pinewood fire is much worse than my entire day of brewing.
 
This is now the third time this evening I've made the common sense suggestion that this thread was started by the OP for brewers to share ideas about tips and ways of brewing that encourage conservation, ecology and sustainability. All other posts are Off Topic, imho.

All of the off topic posts make the on topic discussion very difficult. Start your own threads to talk about the politics or complaining about environmentalism. Those posts don't respond to the OP and are off-topic here.

I'll burn one for you. Agree 100%, but don't forget... the political animal doesn't even believe the garbage they throw at the masses. It is simply a campaign tool to retain their power.
 
Keep the name calling, wise cracks, insults and other OT stuff out of here. If you want to talk politics, go to the debate forum.

If you continue namecalling (and yes, words like "retarded" are namecalling), and personal attacks, you can find a new place to discuss brewing as well.
 
Maybe someone from the other perspective can explain to me how my environmentalism is so backward and threatening. I just don't get it. :confused:

Perhaps they're not willing to try to change their way of being?

I'm on the fence as far as changing things go. On the one hand, we're part of the eco-system, and whatever we do is on one level or another natural and part of nature. On the other hand, we really have begun to remove ourselves from what nature really is. Either way, there's no point in debating with anyone who feels strongly about something. They're not going to change their mind just because someone else has an opinion that differs unless they're already questioning their own opinion.

I'm not about to go and dump paint thinner in the local pond, but I'm also too lazy to start riding my bike instead of driving my car. I do feel a little weird dumping a bunch of sanitizer down the drain into my septic tank, though. I also know it's not worth my energy to try to convince anybody to change their ways.

Let's just discuss what we think we can do (personally) to reduce our own personal waste like the OP was talking about, huh?
 
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Let's just discuss what we think we can do (personally) to reduce our own personal waste like the OP was talking about, huh?

That was exactly my point if you read my previous posts in the thread. Unfortunately, the thread was diverted and somehow politicized. It required a reply.

So let's get back on topic.
 
Keep the name calling, wise cracks, insults and other OT stuff out of here. If you want to talk politics, go to the debate forum.

If you continue namecalling (and yes, words like "retarded" are namecalling), and personal attacks, you can find a new place to discuss brewing as well.

The pig post was quite on point. Also, their is nothing wrong with speeding the ascent of the grain past a few trophic layers. One poster speaks of making cookies. I just suggested making bacon. I haven't implemented this yet because of our draconian zoning laws forbidding barn yard animals.

Most conservation is choosing one resource over another. For example, in areas with a surplus of potable water cloth diapers help while in a dessert disposable are better.

Also, if emissions from transportation are a legitimate concern. Consider the drives made to home brew events. Maybe a web cam competition would be the green future, but at the very least carpool. I for one have made multi-day drives alone because of last minute planning and not working out a carpool.

By the way... huge improvement in efficiency can come from brewing outside and keeping a lid on during boil. You can even ignore the boil over as you don't have to clean outside. Significant heat loss comes from boiling with the lid off.
 
Let's just discuss what we think we can do (personally) to reduce our own personal waste like the OP was talking about, huh?

Yes, let's. All of us. Remember what your Momma taught you? The Golden Rule?

There is a time and place for political arguments. This is neither the time nor place. If you can't make a contribution in a positive manner, or have nothing to add, then walk away. You don't have to agree or disagree. Keep on topic, or go to another thread.

I'm very disappointed that a group of grown men who I've grown to like and respect have turned a conversation about being environmentally conscious during brewing into posts with name calling, disparaging political remarks, and childish behavior.
 
The pig post was quite on point. Also, their is nothing wrong with speeding the ascent of the grain past a few trophic layers. One poster speaks of making cookies. I just suggested making bacon. I haven't implemented this yet because of our draconian zoning laws forbidding barn yard animals.

Most conservation is choosing one resource over another. For example, in areas with a surplus of potable water cloth diapers help while in a dessert disposable are better.

Also, if emissions from transportation are a legitimate concern. Consider the drives made to home brew events. Maybe a web cam competition would be the green future, but at the very least carpool. I for one have made multi-day drives alone because of last minute planning and not working out a carpool.

By the way... huge improvement in efficiency can come from brewing outside and keeping a lid on during boil. You can even ignore the boil over as you don't have to clean outside. Significant heat loss comes from boiling with the lid off.

Making valid points is fine. However, politcal debate and name calling are not allowed.
 
A post of mine earlier tonight got lost in all the noise, and I want to bring it back - someone raised the issue of using local ingredients. I think that a beer or series of batches focusing on locally grown hops would be very cool.

Do any of you do this? Do you use your own hops or get them from other local growers?
 
A post of mine earlier tonight got lost in all the noise, and I want to bring it back - someone raised the issue of using local ingredients. I think that a beer or series of batches focusing on locally grown hops would be very cool.

Do any of you do this? Do you use your own hops or get them from other local growers?

I use some homegrown hops bartered within our club for dry hopping only. I prefer pellets in the boil as the trub dam catches the stuff better and I just scoop the hot break off for clarity.

Also, a local brew pub grows in their beer garden and on roof. Awesome smell. He too, only uses for dry hopping.

How do local hops have anything to do with environmentalism though? Is it about the transportation? I would have thought that a single massive hop farm would have had the least negative impact on the aggregate environment as damage, pesticides, etc. would be contained.
 
Another option is to brew with organic ingredients. If you're interested in learning more, see 7 Bridges Cooperative at www.breworganic.com

I buy organic grain malt at the Chicago warehouse for MidCountry Malts.

I don't want to rain on your parade, but organic grains aren't as environmentally friendly as one might think. Below is some information I wrote up when this topic came up in the past.

I really hope this rant doesn't end up sounding combative, as I really do believe in most organic produce especially with fruits and vegetables. But I also feel the organic label is just blindly accepted as better when that isn't true in all cases. In my experience grains are one of the exceptions where organic is actually worse.

My father and I farm barley and wheat in central Montana. I feel I have some unique insight as I have seen our land farmed many different ways over the years. My grandfather was organic by default (everyone was organic in those days). My father has followed more conventional farming changes. As a conventional farmer I understand if you are wary of my information, but nonetheless I will try to accurately describe the pros/cons of the different farming practices I have witnessed.

I do see the benefit of organic when it comes to fruits, vegetables, and even hops. These plants often get directly sprayed with insecticides and fungicides. But when it comes to grains, they are typically only sprayed with herbicides (to control weeds) in the plants infancy long before the seed is formed and not at all if the farmer had good weed control before planting. As for insecticides and fungicides, we rarely sprayed them on grain fields. The rather dry weather in grain areas for the most part prevent the need for insecticides and fungicides. While I don’t deny the possible negatives of chemical residues, I feel they are far less then the negatives caused by organic weed control practices.

To control weeds organic grain farmers go back to the old days of plowing a field. While the non-organic no-till farming method we use requires herbicides, we have far more organic matter in or soil versus organic plowed fields. Continually plowing a field repeatedly exposed the organic matter to the air where it quickly oxidizes into carbon dioxide (which contributes to global warming). Less organic matter in the soil means less water retention (plus erosion), less nutrient release, and more crusting of the soil. Crusted soil (a common problem in organic grain farming) creates a poor seed bed and plant roots get less water and oxygen.

Plowed fields also drastically increase land erosion often into river and streams. The recent drought was just as bad as the dust bowl of the 1930's. The reason topsoil didn't blow away and the country didn't starve this time was because of newer farming practices, practices that organic farmers can't use. In addition to erosion, plowing a field burns vastly more fossil fuels than the alternative. Since we started using more modern non-organic farming practices our diesel consumption has dropped by over half.

From what I can gather organic farmers of fruits and vegetable produce similar yields (sometimes even better) to conventional farming methods. This is far from true with grain farming. Talking to organic grain farmers in our area and knowing what my grandfather produced, organic grain land produces less than half the yield of conventional methods.

This decreases the food supply and increases prices. Now this is great for the farmer, but bad for the consumer especially the poor who struggle to afford food. Another side effect of less productive organic land is that more land has to be broken up from its "natural" state to grow the same amount of food. Unlike fruits and vegetables where lots of food can be produced on a small amount of land, grains require vast areas. Lower yielding organic grains cause vast tracts of land to be broken up from its natural state. Largely because of the high grain prices (lower yielding organic grains play a role) we have broken up 700 acres that where previously in native grass.

I hope it doesn't seem like I am attacking organic supporters, as I am an organic guy in many cases. I just think there is a lot of disinformation out there especially when it comes to organic grains, which do have some very serious environmental side effects.
 
I grow cascade hops and hallertauer hops. I buy quite a bit of malt from Breiss, in Chilton, Wisconsin. Not exactly local, but about a two hour drive. It's not trucked from too far away.

Since it's just a couple of plants, I have the hops as decorative plants as well as for harvesting the hops. I got over 20 ounces (dried) out of the cascades this year, and use them in my House Pale Ale exclusively. Since we grow much of our own food organically, we don't use pesticides or fertilizer.

Spent grains make great compost, dog biscuits, breads, and deer bait!
 
The local club is a good idea for finding local hops - thanks.

I'm not going to debate you about whether local growing is more or less sustainable than large commercial agriculture. Sorry.
 
I really strongly considered planting hop risomes this spring -i've got plenty of room (three full sized lots). But, Estate du Pappers has many trees and I just don't have an appropriate area with all day sun. So, if I want to use local hops, I'd need to find a local grower.

I grow cascade hops and hallertauer hops. I buy quite a bit of malt from Breiss, in Chilton, Wisconsin. Not exactly local, but about a two hour drive. It's not trucked from too far away.

Since it's just a couple of plants, I have the hops as decorative plants as well as for harvesting the hops. I got over 20 ounces (dried) out of the cascades this year, and use them in my House Pale Ale exclusively. Since we grow much of our own food organically, we don't use pesticides or fertilizer.

Spent grains make great compost, dog biscuits, breads, and deer bait!
 
If you have the space, it might be worth the investment (~$5per plus time) to give it a shot
 
I really strongly considered planting hop risomes this spring -i've got plenty of room (three full sized lots). But, Estate du Pappers has many trees and I just don't have an appropriate area with all day sun. So, if I want to use local hops, I'd need to find a local grower.

I'm sure hops do better with full sun, but mine did fine even though my location creates about 50% shade. Give home growing a try. They are amazing plants.
 
By the way... huge improvement in efficiency can come from brewing outside and keeping a lid on during boil. You can even ignore the boil over as you don't have to clean outside. Significant heat loss comes from boiling with the lid off.

I hope this isn't too off topic.

I have thought about this before, but wouldn't having the lid on prevent water from boiling off, causing a longer boil to get to final volume?

I guess it wouldn't matter if you aren't doing full boils, but I am. Just checking to see if I could make improvements.
 
I hope this isn't too off topic.

I have thought about this before, but wouldn't having the lid on prevent water from boiling off, causing a longer boil to get to final volume?

I guess it wouldn't matter if you aren't doing full boils, but I am. Just checking to see if I could make improvements.

This is a good point, plus, if you keep your lid on during the boil, you'll have a greater concentration of DMS in your brew.

If it's winter and you live in a winter state, brew INDOORS, it'll save energy (of course be safe about it, I wouldn't advise using a turkey fryer or something indoors without proper ventilation). If you live in Florida, yeah, maybe you'll want to brew outdoors.
 
This is a good point, plus, if you keep your lid on during the boil, you'll have a greater concentration of DMS in your brew.

+1 Yes, boiling the wort with a lid on the kettle is not a good idea at all. It will likely produce lots of DMS. Also a good call on it inhibiting the boil off. It might be OK to cover the kettle while heating the wort, then remove the lid as it approaches the boiling point. That should save at least some fuel. I prefer the no lid method.
 
I would think that brewing your own beer would be more "green" than buying commercial. Commercial beer uses some of the same ingredients that we use and they have to get it shipped to there brewery. Then once the beer is made, a distributor has to distribute it. I would think that carbon footprint would be bigger than the ingredients form my homebrew.

Yeah but its more efficient shipping enormous loads then LTLs and any sort of amount of product we can buy. They can get '1 truck' to deliver all their grains, we need one truck to deliver our grains to each one of our houses. If you goto the LHBS, bam, thats another 1 car trip to get 1 persons grains. You would need to implement improved accounting to actually 'green' up your brewing supply chain.
 
Here in Chicago, while we are supposed to be a 'green city', there is nothing that requires bars to recycle glass bottles. It always bothered me and when I was going to bars regularly, kept me drinking beers from the tap.

Now that I'm a home brewer, I not only reuse bottles that I buy, but accept bottles from others, so they don't end up in the landfill or in the recycling bin. My wife and I recycle as much as we can, taking a weekly trip to the recycling center. But, reusing bottles multiple times is way better than recycling.

Reducing society's impact on the environment is a very complicated proposition, but the way I look at it, if everyone takes a few important steps, then it will make a huge impact on the whole.

So, while my homebrewing isn't totally carbon and pollution neutral I use mostly natural products, recycle what I can, reuse all those empties, and don't burn the gas in the car that I used to going to the bar.
The best ways to help are implemented by you.
#1 Reduce- Use less of what you can. Often times keeping your supplies at the 'correct' level will encourage more efficient use of supplies. Think of the "shampoo effect"
#2 Reuse-Use what you can over and over again. Bottles, yeast, foodsafe buckets
#3 Recycle- Not as good for the world as people make it up to be. Recycle Glass, aluminum, and those are the biggies. Often times recycling takes alot more energy output that it is worth.
#4 Landfill- Use it and dispose it. Not the preffered method really, try and reduce or reuse things if you can.

Those four points are a great way to start analyzing your brewery and looking for what you could do. You need to know what is inefficient before you know what to remove. Also anyone that wants to be more 'green' in their brewery should obviously not be using turkey fryers, talk about inefficient. Switch to E!
 
As someone involved in the agricultural industry, I'll say the more CO2 in the air the better. CO2 makes plants grow better, which means more food for everyone. How can that be a bad thing? Especially since there's no objective proof it has an impact on the climate one way or the other.
I know this is partly snark, but CO2 can have some very adverse effects:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification

As for brewing beer (this is what we're here to talk about right?), I recirculate my chiller water and use it to clean my equipment afterwards and/or water the lawn/hop garden. I also keg or occasionally bottle in flip-tops. Also have been using some spent grain to make doggie treats which I'm actually working on setting up a deal with a friend of my wife's who has a dog grooming biz to sell her the treats. I currently rent so getting any kind of direct renewable energy would be difficult, but when/if I get my own place I'd probably try to go solar and start using electricity for heat.

:mug:
 
Full Sun in the gardening world is 6 hours or more. I am sure you can find that in the flat world of Illinois, no?

That made me chuckle. My problem isn't hills, but trees. I'm not sure I could find a spot with full sun for six hours - but now you all have me wanting to grow my own hops again, trying to figure out how I might do it. Didn't I go through this last winter?

:tank:
 
I don't currently compost (spent grains or anything else for that matter). I live in a suburban village, I suppose I'd need to check with the village hall to see about any regulations, and maybe the village might have a composting program? Does anyone have any good links or a primer on composting? It would be great to turn the spent grains into good soil.
 
That made me chuckle. My problem isn't hills, but trees. I'm not sure I could find a spot with full sun for six hours - but now you all have me wanting to grow my own hops again, trying to figure out how I might do it. Didn't I go through this last winter?

:tank:

Thing is, it is only like $5 for a plant. Give at least one a try, if it doesn't work out dig up the root and send it to someone on HBT.

Just remember it takes a few years for it to fully produce. Another thing is say it only gives you what would be considered half a crop. That is ok, plant two or just figure out how much you need.

BTW I have not grown any yet, but plan to this next year.
 
Thing is, it is only like $5 for a plant. Give at least one a try, if it doesn't work out dig up the root and send it to someone on HBT.

Just remember it takes a few years for it to fully produce. Another thing is say it only gives you what would be considered half a crop. That is ok, plant two or just figure out how much you need.

BTW I have not grown any yet, but plan to this next year.

I grew some this year. I got three rhizomes, and ended up with 6 vines. They were doing awesome with about 6 hours of light, when it wasn't raining. I got about an ounce (dried) harvested, and I'd guess there was another 6 or 8 ounces on there. Then it rained. For about a week and a half straight. So, the rest mildewed on the vines. I should have harvested them all a little earlier. The ones I got were really yummy, and I did almost nothing for them. Just watered them for the first couple of weeks. Easy-peasy.
 
I don't currently compost (spent grains or anything else for that matter). I live in a suburban village, I suppose I'd need to check with the village hall to see about any regulations, and maybe the village might have a composting program? Does anyone have any good links or a primer on composting? It would be great to turn the spent grains into good soil.

Some people make composting into quite the complicated task. All you need is to pile the stuff and wait. If you feel up to it, turn it twice a year. I don't turn my pile and just picked the property line of the difficult neighbor. Anything "organic" gets added to the pile and it stinks.
 
I don't currently compost (spent grains or anything else for that matter). I live in a suburban village, I suppose I'd need to check with the village hall to see about any regulations, and maybe the village might have a composting program? Does anyone have any good links or a primer on composting? It would be great to turn the spent grains into good soil.

Here's a basic primer on composting. We live in Chicago and have a standard city lot in a busy neighborhood. We compost with no ill effects with regard to smells, pests, etc. Since we started composting, we've reduced our garbage output markedly.
 
I grew some this year. I got three rhizomes, and ended up with 6 vines. They were doing awesome with about 6 hours of light, when it wasn't raining. I got about an ounce (dried) harvested, and I'd guess there was another 6 or 8 ounces on there. Then it rained. For about a week and a half straight. So, the rest mildewed on the vines. I should have harvested them all a little earlier. The ones I got were really yummy, and I did almost nothing for them. Just watered them for the first couple of weeks. Easy-peasy.


And that was the first year, I have heard it increases production each year for the first 4 or so.

And by making one ounce you still didn't use a mylar bag to buy the same ounce from the lhbs.
 
And that was the first year, I have heard it increases production each year for the first 4 or so.

And by making one ounce you still didn't use a mylar bag to buy the same ounce from the lhbs.

Yeah, I've heard that too. Next year I'm going to actually put up a trellis-type thing instead of letting them cling to the lilacs, too. They'll get more sun, and produce more delicious flowers!

I figure they absorb some of the CO2 I make with the turkey fryer, too. No idea if a few hop plants will make much of a difference, but it sounds cool anyway...
 
Here's a basic primer on composting. We live in Chicago and have a standard city lot in a busy neighborhood. We compost with no ill effects with regard to smells, pests, etc. Since we started composting, we've reduced our garbage output markedly.

Where in the city do you live? I'm up in Roger's Park, and I can't imagine a compost pile going over very well with my neighbors, but I don't really know anything about the legalities.
 
That made me chuckle. My problem isn't hills, but trees. I'm not sure I could find a spot with full sun for six hours - but now you all have me wanting to grow my own hops again, trying to figure out how I might do it. Didn't I go through this last winter?

:tank:

Trees are a lot easier to fix than hills. A good size excevator rents for more than $500/day while an awesome chainsaw goes for $80 for the day.
 
Trees are a lot easier to fix than hills. A good size excevator rents for more than $500/day while an awesome chainsaw goes for $80 for the day.

If we're talking about the ability to grow hops, you're absolutely right. If we're still talking about the environmental impact of growing hops, I think you're defeating the purpose here. :cross:
 
Where in the city do you live? I'm up in Roger's Park, and I can't imagine a compost pile going over very well with my neighbors, but I don't really know anything about the legalities.

I live in Jefferson Park. Ours is not a compost pile, but a compost bin. It's actually right next to the fence that borders our neighbor's back door. Initially, all parties were worried that there might be a smell issue. We realized that, if you follow the guidelines for what to compost and what not to compost, there is really no noticeable smell. It's been there for 3 years, and there have been no complaints.
 
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