American Sour Beer – Book!

[BGBC]

I don't think there's a wrong answer to your question, you'll just get different results.

I recently did a rye saison. Primary was split, one got just 3724, the other got 3724 and Brett C at the same time. These were combined into a single secondary, which got a dose of Brett B. The sample at racking was an interesting comparison. The clean half had a thicker mouthfeel and a spicier finish, while the Brett half was lighter and fruitier.

 

[Weezy]

Great sour beers are not easy to make. Now I have someone to blame if they don't work out as advertised.

 

[butterpants]

Finished the book while on vacation. My highlighter was on overtime. Lots of succinct, viable information for anyone looking to make non-traditionally (at least in my mind) fermented brews.

My only criticism is in the recipe section. It seems as if some of the care and detail of the preceeding text is lost there.... but truthfully you could have not included it and I would have been just as happy. I know there's a strong correlation between units sold and the lack or presence of recipes.

Overall a solid A

 

[Oldsock]

Fantastic book. Read through it once and will be going back and re-reading a handful of sections. I've been messing around with brett for a while and am planning on brewing some sort of version of the funky rye session ale.

Question for Oldsock or anyone else. Are you pitching the Brett C along with your Sacch strain or are you all waiting for primary to finish before you pitch the Brett C? I primarily use brett in the seccondary if I'm not making a an all Brett beer. Just curious if you're doing one way or another on these sort of beers.

I usually pitch everything together. Gives the Brett a chance to grow a bit while there are still simpler sugars, oxygen, and less alcohol in the beer. You'll be fine either way, but that's what has worked the most consistently for me (especially when I'm pitching dregs or don't make a starter with the bugs).

 

[Oldsock]

My only criticism is in the recipe section. It seems as if some of the care and detail of the preceeding text is lost there.... but truthfully you could have not included it and I would have been just as happy. I know there's a strong correlation between units sold and the lack or presence of recipes.

As is the recipes that were chosen or the way they were presented?

I went back and forth on what to include. I didn’t want to publish any commercial recipes I hadn’t brewed. Sours really don’t lend themselves to cloning, especially when you don’t have the exact microbes or barrels that a brewery uses. It often just leads to disappointment if you follow some, but not all of a brewery’s process. I also didn’t want to wear my welcome thin asking for recipes, when what is really important is the production process.

Cheers!

 

[FredTheNuke]

If one were say trying to attain the sourness of a beer such as The Bruery's Oude Tart would you say Lacto or Pedio play more of a role?

 

[butterpants]

As is the recipes that were chosen or the way they were presented?

I went back and forth on what to include. I didn’t want to publish any commercial recipes I hadn’t brewed. Sours really don’t lend themselves to cloning, especially when you don’t have the exact microbes or barrels that a brewery uses. It often just leads to disappointment if you follow some, but not all of a brewery’s process. I also didn’t want to wear my welcome thin asking for recipes, when what is really important is the production process.

Cheers!

Just the detailed presentation. The choices I'm sure are stellar. As a super general comment (my book isn't in my hands right now).... you'd give a dual fermentation recipie with the caveat "when it's done, rack" or something similar. You seem like a maven to details (which I love and makes your writing interesting). Would have preferred to see more detailed or verbose fermentation directions.... for instance don't rack until gravity 1.012, etc.

I know you would have been entirely happy not including recipes... but I'm glad you did!

 

[Max_Chavez]

Just to speak out of turn, here. What I took away from the book and from everything I've encountered about sour beers, is that it's more craft than recipe. I feel like that is represented throughout the entire book. Monitor progress to your tastes, blend/adjust, check for consistent gravity readings, etc. guidelines, not rules.

To me, the book is some great snapshots of how a handful of beers are made, but more so about how to get the most out of the experience of steering your own ship through the making of sour beers. Too much poetic license?
With all the moving pieces in a mixed fermentation, basically no beer is ever exactly the same. So, statements like,
"Don't rack until gravity 1.012." Would be silly and counterintuitive to the concept. IMHO.
In closing, the more sour beer brewed in the world, the better!

Cheers!

 

[Weezy]

The wort is almost insignificant when compared to the effort involved in selecting and managing the yeast and bacteria, and their environment, over time.

 

[satph]

Just the detailed presentation. The choices I'm sure are stellar. As a super general comment (my book isn't in my hands right now).... you'd give a dual fermentation recipie with the caveat "when it's done, rack" or something similar. You seem like a maven to details (which I love and makes your writing interesting). Would have preferred to see more detailed or verbose fermentation directions.... for instance don't rack until gravity 1.012, etc.

I know you would have been entirely happy not including recipes... but I'm glad you did!

I believe every recipe in the back of the book is also on the Mad Fermentationst Blog (I have checked a lot, but not all). For example, the Courage RIS Tribute on p 317 is here. Quick Oud Bruin p 322 is here. I don't know about the publishing decision to keep the detail out of the book. But you'll find much more detailed information about the recipes on the website.

 

[Oldsock]

If one were say trying to attain the sourness of a beer such as The Bruery's Oude Tart would you say Lacto or Pedio play more of a role?

As far as I understand Lacto and Pedio make the same product (lactic acid). Your choice of microbe would be more dependent on your process. If you are doing a clean primary fermentation followed by souring, Pedio will likely be the primary souring microbe. However, if you want to get the sourness earlier in the process, a strong L. brevis strain would be great to have in the mix.

Incidentally a friend has got his hands on pure D and L lactic acids and is planning a taste test for us. This would go a long way to confirming my first sentence, as some strains of lactic acid bacteria produce one, the other, or both.

 

[Oldsock]

Just the detailed presentation. The choices I'm sure are stellar. As a super general comment (my book isn't in my hands right now).... you'd give a dual fermentation recipie with the caveat "when it's done, rack" or something similar. You seem like a maven to details (which I love and makes your writing interesting). Would have preferred to see more detailed or verbose fermentation directions.... for instance don't rack until gravity 1.012, etc.

I know you would have been entirely happy not including recipes... but I'm glad you did!

Ah! I don’t think the gravity is all that important when it comes to racking sour beers (if you have all of the microbes in there from the start). The breweries that are concerned with timing transfers on gravity and/or stalling the brewer’s yeast are generally waiting to add their bacteria and Brett until a particular point. I often don’t even take gravity readings when transferring to secondary, I just wait for most of the yeast to drop out of suspension. I’ll take gravity readings after the beer has aged for a bit to judge if there are enough fermentables left for adequate additional souring.

 

[dantheman13]

As far as I understand Lacto and Pedio make the same product (lactic acid). Your choice of microbe would be more dependent on your process. If you are doing a clean primary fermentation followed by souring, Pedio will likely be the primary souring microbe. However, if you want to get the sourness earlier in the process, a strong L. brevis strain would be great to have in the mix.

Incidentally a friend has got his hands on pure D and L lactic acids and is planning a taste test for us. This would go a long way to confirming my first sentence, as some strains of lactic acid bacteria produce one, the other, or both.

Matt's been sharing that with us over on Milk The Funk... looking forward to the results. There was a question about where the source for the quote from Vinnie about him preferring the "lactic acid from Pedio over Lactobacillus". I don't have your book with me at the moment, but I believe you mention it on page 100. Do you know the original source for that quote?

I mentioned in the discussion on MTF that I wonder if there is something else going on. I wonder if the change from lactic acid into ethyl lactate by Brettanomyces over time is what is creating the "softer lactic acid" effect, perhaps combined with the other fruitier esters that Brett creates over time? I've read several experienced homebrewers say that sour beer gets lets acidic over time, and they'll use the effect of the Brettanomyces to explain why.

 

[Oldsock]

Matt's been sharing that with us over on Milk The Funk... looking forward to the results. There was a question about where the source for the quote from Vinnie about him preferring the "lactic acid from Pedio over Lactobacillus". I don't have your book with me at the moment, but I believe you mention it on page 100. Do you know the original source for that quote?

I mentioned in the discussion on MTF that I wonder if there is something else going on. I wonder if the change from lactic acid into ethyl lactate by Brettanomyces over time is what is creating the "softer lactic acid" effect, perhaps combined with the other fruitier esters that Brett creates over time? I've read several experienced homebrewers say that sour beer gets lets acidic over time, and they'll use the effect of the Brettanomyces to explain why.

Here is the quote from Vinnie's slides from his NHC presentation on sour beers: "Lacto is lighter on the palate and is more tart and tangy than sourness derived from Pediococcus."

Wouldn't Brett softening the acidity mean that Pedio-driven beers would be mellower as beers with Pedio are more likely to have Brett as well? I think it's more likely in reverse, Pedio beers are aged for a long time with Brett, often in barrels, and tend to have a lower pH and more acetic acid than quick Lacto beers.

Anyway ethyl lactate is between 360-480 PPM. While lactic acid is 1900-5300 PPM. That means you could at most see a softening of ~10% between Brett and non-Brett sours, not insignificant, but not massive either.

 

[sweetcell]

As far as I understand Lacto and Pedio make the same product (lactic acid).

other than the D vs. L lactic acid distinction, is it crazy to wonder about what else lacto and pedio are producing? maybe some secondary products distinguish the contributions of lacto and pedio, make the perception of one different than the other, etc?

 

[Oldsock]

other than the D vs. L lactic acid distinction, is it crazy to wonder about what else lacto and pedio are producing? maybe some secondary products distinguish the contributions of lacto and pedio, make the perception of one different than the other, etc?

Not crazy, but I'm not aware of any possible candidates.

 

[cswalker]

Thanks! I just bought mine through kindle. Seriously, if every book could be on kindle... i'd be so happy.

 

[helibrewer]

Just got the Kindle version, looking forward to the read. If I ever stop making wine I will get into this sour beer wave.

 

[dantheman13]

Here is the quote from Vinnie's slides from his NHC presentation on sour beers: "Lacto is lighter on the palate and is more tart and tangy than sourness derived from Pediococcus."

Wouldn't Brett softening the acidity mean that Pedio-driven beers would be mellower as beers with Pedio are more likely to have Brett as well? I think it's more likely in reverse, Pedio beers are aged for a long time with Brett, often in barrels, and tend to have a lower pH and more acetic acid than quick Lacto beers.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. The quote itself is a little bit vague/self contradicting in some ways I think.

 

[Oldsock]

Just got the Kindle version, looking forward to the read. If I ever stop making wine I will get into this sour beer wave.

Why not both? I've brewed and tasted some delicious wine-sour-beer hybrids! I've got a funky saison on tap now with loads of New Zealand hops, plus a bottle of Sauvignon Blanc wine from Marlborough.

 

[FredTheNuke]

Another new kick for me is cider. I wonder what happens when you add lacto, brett and pedio to fresh raw cider..... HMMMMMMM.... to use wine yeast first or not is the question.

 

[FredTheNuke]

Of course OldSock got there first....

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2009/11/sour-cider.html






...

 

[svenness]

Still reading the book but going to brew the wine barrel flemish red this week. My first attempt at a sour, very excited.

Question for you all: Planning on adding a starter of sacc, a pack of rosalare, and Supplication dregs (yum!) per the recipe. I am planning on adding dregs from any similar wild ale I drink over the next year to this beer, maybe one a month. I don't care about reproducibility and I like the idea of building up a house culture from the bottles I drink. Is this bad form or something that is commonplace?

 

[sweetcell]

I am planning on adding dregs from any similar wild ale I drink over the next year to this beer, maybe one a month. I don't care about reproducibility and I like the idea of building up a house culture from the bottles I drink. Is this bad form or something that is commonplace?

i share your attitude about non-repeatability when it comes to sours. i add random dregs throughout the fermentation/aging process. i don't know if it's "bad form", dunno how common it is, but it's something that definitely works for me.

(might be over-kill, but i sanitize the opening of the bottle with alcohol & flame before pouring out the dregs... don't want to pick up anything nasty then give it 12+ months to party in your beer)

 

[lousbrews]

i share your attitude about non-repeatability when it comes to sours. i add random dregs throughout the fermentation/aging process. i don't know if it's "bad form", dunno how common it is, but it's something that definitely works for me.

(might be over-kill, but i sanitize the opening of the bottle with alcohol & flame before pouring out the dregs... don't want to pick up anything nasty then give it 12+ months to party in your beer)

I wouldn't be concerned about picking up something "nasty" especially if its secondary fermentation using dregs. The alcohol content will inhibit growth.

 

[sweetcell]

I wouldn't be concerned about picking up something "nasty" especially if its secondary fermentation using dregs. The alcohol content will inhibit growth.

i should point out that i only flame the opening of corked bottles, since the lip of a corked bottle is exposed the entire time. lips of capped bottled are sealed by the cap.

acetobacter is happy to grow in an alcoholic environment...

 

[MaddBaggins]

i should point out that i only flame the opening of corked bottles, since the lip of a corked bottle is exposed the entire time. lips of capped bottled are sealed by the cap.

acetobacter is happy to grow in alcoholic environment...

I'm happy to grow in an alcoholic environment also.

 

[helibrewer]

Why not both? I've brewed and tasted some delicious wine-sour-beer hybrids! I've got a funky saison on tap now with loads of New Zealand hops, plus a bottle of Sauvignon Blanc wine from Marlborough.

Just a bit paranoid of infecting my wine with Brett....maybe after reading the book I will develop some tactics to prevent cross infection.

 

[lousbrews]

i should point out that i only flame the opening of corked bottles, since the lip of a corked bottle is exposed the entire time. lips of capped bottled are sealed by the cap.

acetobacter is happy to grow in an alcoholic environment...

Not to be technical, but this will only be an issue in the presence of oxygen, you can't convert ethanol to acetic acid without oxidation occurring. It should only be a concern if done in an oak barrel where you have much greater oxygen diffusion. If your just a home brewer doing secondary in a better bottle I wouldn't be concerned, unless you decide to constantly open your beer every few months to take samples.

 

[Oldsock]

Not to be technical, but this will only be an issue in the presence of oxygen, you can't convert ethanol to acetic acid without oxidation occurring. It should only be a concern if done in an oak barrel where you have much greater oxygen diffusion. If your just a home brewer doing secondary in a better bottle I wouldn't be concerned, unless you decide to constantly open your beer every few months to take samples.

Agreed, and if your goal is to keep your beer 100% Acetobacter free, adding dregs from 10 different barrel aged sour beers isn't a good way to go about that anyway.

I used to add dregs more frequently. These days I tend to add a couple bottles-worth early on, and only add more if I have a batch that seems to be lacking (not souring/funking as expected).

 

[Oldsock]

Another new kick for me is cider. I wonder what happens when you add lacto, brett and pedio to fresh raw cider..... HMMMMMMM.... to use wine yeast first or not is the question.

Cider doesn't have many complex carbohydrates, so not much for the bugs after the primary fermentation. Brett will add some funk, but you won't get much acidity.

Just talked to the good people at http://cidercraftmag.com/ Friday for a story on weird homebrewed ciders (ice cider, funky cider, caramelized cider, dry hopped cider etc.)

 

[FredTheNuke]

A new Charlotte cider works (Red Clay Cider Works) has a hopped cider with Thyme added. Amazingly good! I was surprised at how well those flavors work together.

 

[joshrosborne]

Cider doesn't have many complex carbohydrates, so not much for the bugs after the primary fermentation. Brett will add some funk, but you won't get much acidity.

Just talked to the good people at http://cidercraftmag.com/ Friday for a story on weird homebrewed ciders (ice cider, funky cider, caramelized cider, dry hopped cider etc.)

Couldn't you just add some maltodextrin to give more to munch on?

 

[Oldsock]

Couldn't you just add some maltodextrin to give more to munch on?

Certainly one option. Alternatively you could pitch Lacto first to get the pH down, then follow it up with Saccharomyces. Haven't tried either... yet.

 

[finsfan]

Got the book earlier this week and only on page 50 but I wanted to say thanks to Oldsock for putting all of this research and information together. I am very new to sour beers (my first sour, a "lambic", is at 4 months but tastes fantastic) and this book is a great help. Some of it is still over my head but I am always up for learning about brewing. I already have my next 5 sours planned and purchased.

 

[otveit]

Hva vi år i 00aa

 

[sweetcell]

Hva vi år i 00aa

excellent point. Oldsock, what do you think about this?

 

[cinderbike]

Certainly one option. Alternatively you could pitch Lacto first to get the pH down, then follow it up with Saccharomyces. Haven't tried either... yet.

I'm probably going to attempt a 100% Brett cider in the next couple of weeks, I imagine that might be a valid strategy as well... although not sure how much character I'll get, it's worth a try.

 

[Max_Chavez]

I bottled a 100% brett(plus a lil natural yeast) cider a few days ago. Tastes awesome and I expect brett character to keep developing. I got characteristics similar to the primary brett flavors from the crooked stave bottles that it came from. I definitely did not get boosted acidity(didn't expect it either, as just brett) in fact the most acidic of 4 batches with basically the same juice was a clean ferment a friend did with DuPont dregs(he also added sugar, where I did not)
I will absolutely do more brett ciders

Cheers!

 

[Oldsock]

I'm probably going to attempt a 100% Brett cider in the next couple of weeks, I imagine that might be a valid strategy as well... although not sure how much character I'll get, it's worth a try.

There is no issue getting funk in a mixed-fermented cider. The Brett really doesn't require complex carbohydrates to do its thing. Not saying a 100% Brett cider isn't a great idea, it just doesn't address the acidity issue (if a sour cider is your goal).