FredTheNuke
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I smell MANCRUSH!!!
American Sour Beer Book!
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Pilgarlic
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I know a lot of homebrewers and I read much more than most. I've been through Tonsmeire's book twice and spent hours more rereading and referencing. This book is rich with information, well-presented. Above all, it's a book that will allow you to brew beers you'd hoped one day to brew and get started today, with confidence. I've got three starters going right now: lacto from grains to sour 10 gallons of wort pre-boil, and one starter each of brett trois and brett lambicus. In a bit over a month I'll be serving the two resulting beers, both 100% brett primary fermented with a pre-soured wort, at a local fest even though they're my first 100% brett fermentations. The info found in this book has moved me down the road at an accelerated pace which is what I look for in a good brewing book.
I hereby deem the motto for the HBT Lambic subforum to be: RTFT (Read The F****** Tonsmeire).
Gus_13
Cul de Sac Brewer
I hereby deem the motto for the HBT Lambic subforum to be: RTFT (Read The F****** Tonsmeire).
Amen
Santé!
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For anyone interested, I did video review of "American Sour Beers" on my youtube channel:
http://youtu.be/7rpTdBTgbns
http://youtu.be/7rpTdBTgbns
FredTheNuke
Well-Known Member
Oldsock,
What was your reasoning for the 0.15 oz of oak cubes per gallon? Is this 0.15 oz dry or weighed after soaking? Do you assume they are boiled to reduce the oak strength before use?
I ask because I had found detailed calculations on another site that come up with 57 square inches of barrel surface area per gallon of beer averaged with a standard 53 gallon wine barrel. The oak cubes I have are 1/2x1/2x3/8 inches. This equates to 2.5 square inches per cube. That would be 22.8 cubes per gallon of beer. 23 cubes weigh 0.6 oz dry. That is four times what you recommend.
What was your reasoning for the 0.15 oz of oak cubes per gallon? Is this 0.15 oz dry or weighed after soaking? Do you assume they are boiled to reduce the oak strength before use?
I ask because I had found detailed calculations on another site that come up with 57 square inches of barrel surface area per gallon of beer averaged with a standard 53 gallon wine barrel. The oak cubes I have are 1/2x1/2x3/8 inches. This equates to 2.5 square inches per cube. That would be 22.8 cubes per gallon of beer. 23 cubes weigh 0.6 oz dry. That is four times what you recommend.
actually it's 1.25 in^2 (see below). so Oldsock's suggestion is half of what your other source says... which isn't that surprising. there isn't a scientifically accurate, absolute value for adding oak. something we haven't spoken about is how long the oak is sitting in the beer... more time would require less oak.
http://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/geometry-solids/surfacearea.php
Arrheinous
Well-Known Member
Trying to reproduce the spontaneous fermentation you get from oak barrels for small-scale batches would be pretty cool.
FredTheNuke
Well-Known Member
Good catch! Although with that said that would double the amount of cubes necessary to simulate an actual barrel to 46 cubes or 1.2 ounces of dry cubes. Or has my brain fried from being outside all week building a deck roof in 100 degree heat???
I'd still like to know if he is measuring wet or dry. I need to compare a dozen wet cubes to a dozen dry cubes to see just how much liquid weight they pick up.
i'm pretty sure that the measurements for oak are done dry.
I'm sure Oldsock will give his own answer soon enough, but I assume that his recommendations were based on his own experience of the oak-flavours added by fresh (but boiled) cubes, and what he prefers.
I'm curious as to why one would want to have the same surface area as a used barrel? Obviously you're not getting micro-oxygenation from the cubes. And its not at all obvious that having the same surface area of cubes as in a barrel will result in the same flavour contribution if we're comparing fresh (but boiled/steepd) cubes to old wine barrels.
Oak flavours are going to be more muted because the barrel will already have been used to age several wines, which must surely strip more of the oak flavour than boiling the cubes, and even than steeping them in wine for a few months. In fact, in the Belgian tradition (and English) at least, brewers are using old barrels because they don't want too much flavour from the oak.
I'm getting ready to add some oak to my last two brews, using the new Private Collection PC yeast strains from Wyeast - the Oud Bruin, and De Bomb blends. I took 2.2 oz (x2) of my oak, french oak medium plus toast stave segments, that I bought from morebeer.com. these staves are from new barrels. they are charred. I boiled for about 5 minutes in a few quarts of water for 5 minutes. dumped the water, added fresh water, added some ice to cool, boiled again, for a total of 5 cycles. Today I was able to test a batch of two sour beers that have been aging for several months. Both batches were split in two 5 gallon carboys. A total of 3 carboys were soured and all received this same oak treatment more than three months ago. I am happy to report that none of the tasted samples was too "oaky" though a hint of oak is perceivable. One batch had a whisky addition, and the other a wine addition, and again, though perceivable, not overpowering. I think the 0.2 oz/gal is a good benchmark value. I have previously used oak chip with disastrous results. never again. staves by the way are made from properly conditioned, aged wood, and are also charred. Chips are not. cubes, I don't know. Spirals, I don't know. I have used spirals before, and with good result. I was going to re-use the spirals for these beers, but they are now impregnated with some Brett B & C that I thought I would not use them so as not to disturb the bacteria, nor, to contaminate the spirals with bacteria instead of just Brett.
That's all.
TD
That's all.
TD
Fair enough. Wasn't having a go, I was just wondering if I was missing something. For what its worth, I use a slightly lower rate than Oldsock's, and have been generally happy with the results. I like low levels of oak.
All is good. I'm just here to learn and share mostly.
I agree about oak- too much is usually bad. I've never used cubes before, but I probably will go that route. the stave segments are pricey, and can have odd shapes making them difficult to dose, though they can be split fairly easily. The chips are just a bad product. They should stop selling them I think. I cannot think of a single thing they will help. I had added a quart of Jameson's to a mason jar filled with them over 18 months ago. I had hoped to add them to a KBS clone I was doing - the Irish Whisky was my own twist on the usual Bourbon. Anyway, I tried a small pour of the whisky a year in, and it was like a oak bomb exploded in my whisky drink, and not in a good way. I still have the mason jar. I have been slowly finding ways to use the whisky, but in a year long beer project is not the place.
two oz of stave segments per 5 gallons imparts a mild-moderate amount of oak presence in the few examples I have done this with, but I had done several stages of boiling and cooling with water exchanges before soaking in either wine (for the consecration clone), or whisky (for the KBS clone). I use the term clone loosely, though. I am not trying to re-create those beers, but rather to brew my version of that style/type.
TD
Max_Chavez
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Just received my copy in the mail yesterday(after mentioning it once over the weekend to the girlfriend-keep her around, huh?)
Looks awesome! Can't wait to read through and then refer back to it constantly, thanks!
Looks awesome! Can't wait to read through and then refer back to it constantly, thanks!
For me, I like a different level of oak depending on the beer. The more sour a beer is, the more oak I like. I feel like it balances out the beer and adds a very important component. If it's a lighter beer say like a Berliner Weisse, I'll use cubes for 2-3 weeks. If it's my "gueuze" like solera, I like it heavily oaked. I usually use a spiral or a combination of a spiral and oak cubes. I like to blend the oak and use for example a light American oak spiral and medium toast Hungarian cubes.
For darker sours and fruit sours, I like a heavy oak flavor. I had a raspberry brown sour which had an oak spiral and a full package of medium toast Hungarian cubes for 10 gallons. I kegged it and added another light American oak spiral to the keg because it wasn't oaky enough. The keg is nearly empty and is finally getting the oak level that I wanted. It added a creaminess to the sour beer that really helped to balance it.
dougdecinces
Well-Known Member
Mike,
I bought your book last weekend and like it a lot thus far. I did have one question that popped up during reading it though. You mentioned that you thoroughly aerate your wort and and pitch a sufficient amount of Saccharomyces for all of your sour beers. But I have always tried to avoid aeration and intentionally underpitched Saccharomyces on all my sours. My rationale being that you want to increase the lag time on Saccharomyces to promote the production of Lactobacillus before the environment became too inhospitable for them. How do you produce enough lactic acid in your beers if you are getting quick fermentations?
On a similar, but unrelated note, I was curious why you can aerate and pitch lactobacillus into your wort and have no off flavors, but if you introduce oxygen into your sour mash you end up with fecal/vomit flavors and aromas.
Keep up the good work, and I appreciate all you have done.
I bought your book last weekend and like it a lot thus far. I did have one question that popped up during reading it though. You mentioned that you thoroughly aerate your wort and and pitch a sufficient amount of Saccharomyces for all of your sour beers. But I have always tried to avoid aeration and intentionally underpitched Saccharomyces on all my sours. My rationale being that you want to increase the lag time on Saccharomyces to promote the production of Lactobacillus before the environment became too inhospitable for them. How do you produce enough lactic acid in your beers if you are getting quick fermentations?
On a similar, but unrelated note, I was curious why you can aerate and pitch lactobacillus into your wort and have no off flavors, but if you introduce oxygen into your sour mash you end up with fecal/vomit flavors and aromas.
Keep up the good work, and I appreciate all you have done.
hirschb
Well-Known Member
With a sour mash, you're introducing a whole lot more bugs than just lacto. Basically anything that is in the air/ on the grains and that isn't killed off during mashing can take off in a sour mash. For normal sours, you boil the wort, killing off everything, and then add a pure strain of lacto. There have been various posts on here stating various hypotheses about exactly which bugs cause the vomit smell.
Do you re-use the spirals?
Curious also if you soak or boil them to lessen the oak character at all before using them? I have several fruit sours that are basically ready to bottle, that I've not added any oak to, and they are not what I would call dark beers.
TD
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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I do not boil or sanitize them. My thinking is the same as Mike's as far as fruit. He uses fruit without any pasteurization because the low acidity and alcohol will prevent just about anything from growing. If a little bit of Brett from oak/fruit does happen to grow, it's impact should be minimal as long as you already have a lot of Brett in the beer.
I guess my preference for oak comes from tasting a lot of commercial American sours. For example, Cisco Brewers recently released some sours to our market, and they have a huge oak presence. So much so that I thought they might be using bourbon barrels (they use wine barrels). I love that barrel character, and so far I feel like spirals get me closest to that. Anchoridge, Crooked Stave, etc. all have great barrel (oak) character in their beers as well.
When it comes to Belgian lambic/Flanders beers, these tend to be subtly more complex because of spontaneous fermentation, but also less aggressive than American sours. To pick up on those subtle complex flavors, oak flavor should be minimal. I don't think that translates well to American sours though, which tend to be less subtle and more aggressive in flavor. Oak balances out intense flavors in general, whether they be lactic acid or heavy malt or intense fruit flavors. This statement is just a generalization though.
Also keep in mind that oak drops out over time. It can also be blended out.
I tend not to re-use spirals. I don't feel like I get any benefit from it when I have access to trub/small amounts of sour beer with which to inoculate other beers with. I'll leave my spirals in a fermenter, and if I empty that fermenter (and not do a solera), I'll toss the oak. The introduction of air into an aging sour beer just doesn't seem worth it just to add an old oak spiral that doesn't have much flavor left.
FredTheNuke
Well-Known Member
I add my oak cubes when pitching the bugs and don't open the carboy again until bottling or kegging time. Absolute minimal oxygen introduction. That's why I am trying to quantify the average amount of boiled cubes equals a used wine or whiskey barrel.
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I've found (and Mike backs this up on his blog) that when oak is exposed to primary fermentation, the character of the oak drops out a lot. Mike describes it as creating a subtle "rustic" flavor, but you can be certain that the vanillans will drop out quite a bit. Time also causes those flavors to drop out. So, if you want minimal vanillan oak flavor, this is a good way to go for the reasons you state above.
FredTheNuke
Well-Known Member
Good deal. Might I add that the bugs and oak cubes are added after primary calms down. I would call it secondary but I don't usually rack it.
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butterpants
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Halfway in and I am loving this book. Thank you sock!
Yep, dry weight. You'd need twice as much oak as I suggest to simulate a "new" barrel, but not many sours are aged in first use (from the cooper) barrels. Most are aged in well used barrels which have lost much of their fresh oak character (which is why I usually steam the oak before adding it as well). You can always add more oak part-way through if the flavor is lacking for your beer/tastes.
Lactobacillus isn't the primary souring bacteria in most of my sour beers, Pediococcus is (which works mostly after primary fermentation is complete - I mash hot to save fermentables for them). If you want to promote Lactobacillus, you should make a starter with it and pitch it slightly ahead of the brewer's yeast. I'd rather help the Lacto than put the brewer's yeast in a bad position where they are unhealthy and leave extract or off-flavors.
As another poster noted, the issue in sour mashes isn't exposing Lactobacillus to oxygen, it is the other microbes in the mix from the grain. If you pasteurized the mash and pitched a pure culture, it shouldn't be an issue (but that seems like a pain compared to pitching Lacto into the wort).
secondbase
Well-Known Member
Just received my copy and am loving it so far!
DurtyChemist
Well-Known Member
My understanding was that this amount was the mathematical calculation that was equal to aging in oak barrels. The point of adding the oak cubes was to "store" the bacteria in the pores of oak cubes and have some sort of consistency from batch to batch. It wasn't entirely about adding the oak flavor. I'm sure he wil be along to comment and correct/confirm my logic.
FredTheNuke
Well-Known Member
Cool. One issue, though. You are saying .3 oz of dry cubes per gallon. Folks have calculated 1.2 oz of dry cubes. Why the large difference?
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Is your question: why is there a discrepancy between how much oak I suggest and the amount calculated to mimic the surface area of a barrel? Flavor preference resulting from the differences between fresh oak and used barrels.
These beers are about preference and balance. I think math is a great way to find a starting point, but not a path to determine an ideal. Similarly pH, titratable acidity, final gravity, gas chromatography etc. are all valuable tools, but Id take my tongue over all of them when it comes to blending or judging when a beer is ready.
FredTheNuke
Well-Known Member
Yes, that is basically my question. What it stems from is instead of buying a used wine barrel; which is expensive, bulky and generally a pain in the arse; how much oak do I add to a carboy to simulate the barrel. You recommend 0.15 oz of boiled oak cubes (measured while they are dry) per gallon. If you mathematically calculate the barrel interior area you come up with 1.2 oz of dry cubes. If you did not boil them you'd have a New oak barrel. So to simulate exactly what you would get with the full sized used barrel you would take 1.2 oz of dry measured cubes and boil them for 10 minutes and then soak them in whatever red wine you prefer for a few months to ensure it gets deep into the wood like the real barrel. It seems like a lot of work but I can store 27 six gallon batches in carboys within my temperature controlled fermentation chambers or zero real barrels as none will fit one.
Now I am working on closing the gap between what you recommend from experience and what I would get if I bought a used wine barrel. Math says your recommendation is 1/8th the strength but I am sure there is a very good reason why.
Another way to look at it is say you brewed 59 gallons of beer in one batch. You put 53 gallons into a used wine barrel. You put the remaining six into a glass carboy that also had .15 oz of oak cubes (boiled, measured dry and soaked in the exact same wine for 6 months) per gallon - so 0.9 oz of total cubes. Would the final 59 gallons of beer taste the same six months or a year later? If so then we have an exact ratio of cubes to barrels with a method to prepare the cubes to be identical to the barrels.
Now I am working on closing the gap between what you recommend from experience and what I would get if I bought a used wine barrel. Math says your recommendation is 1/8th the strength but I am sure there is a very good reason why.
Another way to look at it is say you brewed 59 gallons of beer in one batch. You put 53 gallons into a used wine barrel. You put the remaining six into a glass carboy that also had .15 oz of oak cubes (boiled, measured dry and soaked in the exact same wine for 6 months) per gallon - so 0.9 oz of total cubes. Would the final 59 gallons of beer taste the same six months or a year later? If so then we have an exact ratio of cubes to barrels with a method to prepare the cubes to be identical to the barrels.
The issue is that barrels aren't boiled for 10 minutes. They are often used for several wines over the span of a couple years before they get to a brewery. Even then many breweries use the barrels several times blending beers aged in barrels of different ages because first use wine barrels can even be too much for some beers.
There is also no reason to believe that a standard wine barrel is an ideal size for aging sour beer. Many brewers actually prefer larger barrels (less oxygen, and oak). Let your palate, rather than a formula be your guide. Oak one batch heavily and blend it in? Blend in wine to taste at bottling (just added a bottle of New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc to a hoppy saison etc.).
FredTheNuke
Well-Known Member
That's the info that makes it click. So 0.15 oz of brand new oak cubes that are prepared by a 10 minute boil and a few months of soaking in wine would be way more powerful than the exact same surface area of used oak wine barrel.
Yes, trial and error and my palate will lead to a good answer. But that year of waiting and then finding it too strong sucks. I try everything possible to avoid frequent sampling (the oak it and forget it method).
Yes, trial and error and my palate will lead to a good answer. But that year of waiting and then finding it too strong sucks. I try everything possible to avoid frequent sampling (the oak it and forget it method).
hirschb
Well-Known Member
This is mostly a question for Mike, but anybody else, please chime in with other opinions etc...
I've started playing around with a few recipes from the American Sour Beer book, the Mad Fermentationalist website, and (in most cases) tweaks on some of these recipes. I've noticed that some of the beers have been a bit hoppier than my expectations, and often not in a good way. I think this is mostly due to differences in palate between Mike and I. I tend to like the aromatics from hops, but feel that the bitter elements can clash with certain beer types (especially sours, and to a lesser degree saisons- which I know should have pronounced hops flavor). However, I think something else might be going on. I've noticed that Mike tends to ferment/cellar his beers for a really long ****ing time compared to me (2-4 months compared to 6-18). I suspect that some of the astringent bitterness of the hops is fading over time in Mike's beers, but are still freshly present in mine. I know hop flavors fade over time, but is the hops fade mostly aromatic, or are there also large reductions in bitterness over time? If so, how much and/or is there anyway to predict this degradation in bitterness? This might be a better question for another forum, but since I'm working in the context of sour/brett beers, I'm posting it here. I'd really love it if my Sour American (pg 326) brewed with De Bom would debitter over time (I put in too many hops). It's already a really nice/funky sour beer, but the bitterness just throws it off balance. I'd also like to know how to adjust some of Mike's recipes in the future- i.e. should I scale back on the hops, or just make sure to age/cellar them a long ass time. Thanks in advance for any comments!
I've started playing around with a few recipes from the American Sour Beer book, the Mad Fermentationalist website, and (in most cases) tweaks on some of these recipes. I've noticed that some of the beers have been a bit hoppier than my expectations, and often not in a good way. I think this is mostly due to differences in palate between Mike and I. I tend to like the aromatics from hops, but feel that the bitter elements can clash with certain beer types (especially sours, and to a lesser degree saisons- which I know should have pronounced hops flavor). However, I think something else might be going on. I've noticed that Mike tends to ferment/cellar his beers for a really long ****ing time compared to me (2-4 months compared to 6-18). I suspect that some of the astringent bitterness of the hops is fading over time in Mike's beers, but are still freshly present in mine. I know hop flavors fade over time, but is the hops fade mostly aromatic, or are there also large reductions in bitterness over time? If so, how much and/or is there anyway to predict this degradation in bitterness? This might be a better question for another forum, but since I'm working in the context of sour/brett beers, I'm posting it here. I'd really love it if my Sour American (pg 326) brewed with De Bom would debitter over time (I put in too many hops). It's already a really nice/funky sour beer, but the bitterness just throws it off balance. I'd also like to know how to adjust some of Mike's recipes in the future- i.e. should I scale back on the hops, or just make sure to age/cellar them a long ass time. Thanks in advance for any comments!
That's a good question, actually. I was intending on saying that bitterness does fade over time (think of a bitter barley wine after a year or two of age), but when you are working with Brett things change. I know that hop flavors/aromas are actually preserved to some degree by 100% Brett fermentations due to Brett's ability to stay alive and metabolize oxygen.
For example I have a 100% B custersianus IPA that is about 8 months old now, and the hop flavor/aroma are better than when the beer was fresh (there was a hay flavor early on and over time it is dropping out, which I think is really why the hop flavor is coming forward now). I've experienced great hop flavor coming from a few 100% Brett beers months after those flavors should have dropped out like in traditional IPA's.
Are IBU's preserved by Brett in the same manner? Or are they broken down by Brett? I want to say that exposing IBU's to 100% Brett fermentations softens the bitterness quite a bit, but I don't have enough data to back this up, and even if that was the case it might not reflect what Brett does to IBU's in mixed fermentations.
Most of my sours are in the 10-15 IBU range, pretty much at flavor threshold. Sour American calls for 13 IBUs (about half of the brew-day target for many Russian River sours), about the same as a hefeweizen. I'm surprised that even young the beer expresses a clashing bitterness. Certainly some of my funky (non-sour) beers have substantially more IBUs that could be very distracting for drinkers who dislike bitterness.
IBUs don't decrease in a linear fashion because different iso-alpha acids have different half lives. Originally I had info about IBU losses to aging in the book, can't remember if it ended up being cut or not? A year of aging will get you to ~75% of the original IBUs, and two years to ~60% (this would be compared to post-fermentation).
If you don't want any bitterness perception, there is no issue dropping the IBUs to 5, or even leaving hops out entirely!
While the oxygen-scavenging abilities of Brett help to preserve hop aromatics, I'm not aware of this protection extending to IBUs. The lower pH created by fermentation and the binding of hop oils to yeast cells tend to reduce the IBUs, not sure to what extent the lower pH and extended fermentation of sour beers would alter this.
This is a good reminder not to change any of the variables in a sour beer without considering what other adjustments should be made to compensate.
Hope that helps, best of luck!
hirschb
Well-Known Member
Yeah, the Sour American case was a ****up on my part. The other beer that was "off" was a 1/2 batch of Saison Vatour with the Mosaic/Citra/Nelson Sauv combination from your dry hopped sour recipe. I cut the M/C/NS hops in half at boil, and skipped dry hopping (so 1/4 of your M/C/NS quantities), which would have been an appropriate hops level, if one of the brett strains that I added (either Naard or Trois, I dunno which took over) hadn't made the beer too sour- cherry/strawberry-fruity. This was a case of playing around with too many variables at the same time. In the future, I think I might try to keep my sour beers in the 5-10 IBU range, and if they lack bitterness, add some dry hops as flavor appropriate.
MeanDeuce
Well-Known Member
Book purchased, looking forward to reading up and starting my first sour beer. Love reading the blog. Great work Mike.
BGBC
Well-Known Member
Just finished the book last night. Great read and will be a good resource going forward.
Worked up a version of the Flanders Red recipe for my system and plan to brew on Saturday using a house culture I've been building up for a few months (various Crooked Stave, Jester King, Allagash, among others).
Worked up a version of the Flanders Red recipe for my system and plan to brew on Saturday using a house culture I've been building up for a few months (various Crooked Stave, Jester King, Allagash, among others).
Fantastic book. Read through it once and will be going back and re-reading a handful of sections. I've been messing around with brett for a while and am planning on brewing some sort of version of the funky rye session ale.
Question for Oldsock or anyone else. Are you pitching the Brett C along with your Sacch strain or are you all waiting for primary to finish before you pitch the Brett C? I primarily use brett in the seccondary if I'm not making a an all Brett beer. Just curious if you're doing one way or another on these sort of beers.
Question for Oldsock or anyone else. Are you pitching the Brett C along with your Sacch strain or are you all waiting for primary to finish before you pitch the Brett C? I primarily use brett in the seccondary if I'm not making a an all Brett beer. Just curious if you're doing one way or another on these sort of beers.
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