Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison - they were right!

[llama_boy]

Starting my 3724 saga.

<Sep-30-12> I brewed a small saison (1.048) and pitched the cake of a big 3L starter into 5 gallons. Wort was at 75F and fully oxygenated with O2. Let it sit for a day at 75F until I had active airlock activity, about 1/sec. Just set the ramp-up from 75F-90F over the next 8 days. I'll be taking daily reading.. We shall see..

Forgot to mention, I mashed a little too high at 152F for 90mins and the grain bill is 100% barley. This will likely reduce my terminal gravity but I hope to still see 1.007.

<Update Oct-17-12> Even with the healthy starter, pure O2, and precise temperature control starting at 75* and slowly ramping to 84* (decided to stop there) I have a stuck fermentation at 1.022. I roused the yeast and after a few hour there is no new airlock activity. The sample tastes very good with a great saison profile so I am considering finishing with either 1056 or a dry wine yeast. I'll give it a few days before pitching another yeast.

 

[permo]

Starting my 3724 saga.

<Sep-30-12> I brewed a small saison (1.048) and pitched the cake of a big 3L starter into 5 gallons. Wort was at 75F and fully oxygenated with O2. Let it sit for a day at 75F until I had active airlock activity, about 1/sec. Just set the ramp-up from 75F-90F over the next 8 days. I'll be taking daily reading.. We shall see..

Forgot to mention, I mashed a little too high at 152F for 90mins and the grain bill is 100% barley. This will likely reduce my terminal gravity but I hope to still see 1.007.

<Update Oct-17-12> Even with the healthy starter, pure O2, and precise temperature control starting at 75* and slowly ramping to 84* (decided to stop there) I have a stuck fermentation at 1.022. I roused the yeast and after a few hour there is no new airlock activity. The sample tastes very good with a great saison profile so I am considering finishing with either 1056 or a dry wine yeast. I'll give it a few days before pitching another yeast.

How did this end up?

 

[makisupa]

Hi all. I've been experimenting with 3724 for a couple years and I think I can offer some very helpful advice:

Chill your saison to 85 degrees
Ferment at 92 degrees for three weeks
Age at 55 degrees for two weeks
Carbonate
DONE!

I get great, consistent results from 3724 with this technique. After you pitch at 85, put your carboy in a fermentation chamber and set it to 92 from the get go. It'll ramp up to that temp and then let it sit there. Fermentation should take off in a couple hours and you'll get to 1.000 or close in three weeks. Rack to secondary and go two weeks at 55. I then chill to 38, force carb and serve.

 

[slcdawg]

Great thread! I'm brewing my first saison tonight with 3724 and read through the entire thread. I'm going to try to control temperature with a water bath and aquarium heater. I plan to pitch at 70-75F and then ramp up the temp a few degrees each day until above 85F. Not sure if I can go higher - first time fermenting at this high of temp.

My question is I'm fermenting in a bucket. I've read not to ferment in a bucket for more than 4 weeks (and this is my general practice) due to all the head space. Can I transfer to secondary at 4 weeks if its not finished yet or do I need to wait until its done? Will it finish in the secondary or do I need the yeast cake? I was thinking I could try to swirl the bottom and transfer as much yeast as possible into the secondary.

 

[meadowstream]

My question is I'm fermenting in a bucket. I've read not to ferment in a bucket for more than 4 weeks (and this is my general practice) due to all the head space. Can I transfer to secondary at 4 weeks if its not finished yet or do I need to wait until its done? Will it finish in the secondary or do I need the yeast cake? I was thinking I could try to swirl the bottom and transfer as much yeast as possible into the secondary.

What is the problem with head space in a bucket? What reasons are given for this being problematic?

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

does anyone understand how to control the flavor you get from the yeast? I made a starter on a stir plate at 78 and after chilling and decanting, the starter liquid had a great fruity flavor. The actual beer was pitched at 78, let it rise to 80 for 2 weeks and brought the temp up to about 90 to finish it. I got a lot more of the spicy character out of the yeast than fruity, which I think would have been better. I left it in primary for 5 weeks and it was finished.

lots of headspace in a bucket for secondary or aging would allow more oxygenation. after the initial fermentation the beer isn't pumping out CO2 and you want to minimize exposure to oxygen.

 

[beauvafr]

Have you guys successfully sugar-carbonated you beer with 3724 without adding yeast at bottling?

 

[beergolf]

Have you guys successfully sugar-carbonated you beer with 3724 without adding yeast at bottling?

Yes, do it all the time with no problems.

 

[ShartAttack]

So I ordered the Northern Brewer Saison extract kit and Wyeast 3724 without doing any homework. Hey, it's my 6th brew and it's like every other yeast, right?

Once I read about all the issues, I put the thermostat in my apartment up to ~76F. It's a small apartment so I didn't really want to crank up the heat quite yet so I was going to see how far I could get without having to utilize some sort of heater. Here are my gravity readings so far:

5/1/2013 PM, OG @1.055
5/3/2013 PM, @1.042
5/4/2013 AM, @1.036
5/5/2013 AM, @1.032
5/6/2013 AM, @1.029

My question for the more experienced here, am I past the hump? I've been getting plenty of airlock activity since about 2 hours after I pitched my smack pack. There was still a thin layer of krausen on top of the beer this morning. I'm fine with having to wait a while for it to dry out, but I just don't want to have to turn our spare bedroom into a sauna to get there

 

[beergolf]

So I ordered the Northern Brewer Saison extract kit and Wyeast 3724 without doing any homework. Hey, it's my 6th brew and it's like every other yeast, right?

Once I read about all the issues, I put the thermostat in my apartment up to ~76F. It's a small apartment so I didn't really want to crank up the heat quite yet so I was going to see how far I could get without having to utilize some sort of heater. Here are my gravity readings so far:

5/1/2013 PM, OG @1.055
5/3/2013 PM, @1.042
5/4/2013 AM, @1.036
5/5/2013 AM, @1.032
5/6/2013 AM, @1.029

My question for the more experienced here, am I past the hump? I've been getting plenty of airlock activity since about 2 hours after I pitched my smack pack. There was still a thin layer of krausen on top of the beer this morning. I'm fine with having to wait a while for it to dry out, but I just don't want to have to turn our spare bedroom into a sauna to get there

Wow. 5 days and you have checked the gravity 4 times. Just let it be for a while and let the yeast do its job.

3724 does like it hot to finish. I use a cooler filled with water and an aquarium heater to get the temps up and keep them up.

 

[ShartAttack]

Wow. 5 days and you have checked the gravity 4 times. Just let it be for a while and let the yeast do its job.

3724 does like it hot to finish. I use a cooler filled with water and an aquarium heater to get the temps up and keep them up.

Yeah, I've been a little obsessive with the gravity readings because threads like this one made me paranoid. I promise not to check it again for a week :cross:

 

[ne0t0ky0]

I was at 1.029 about a month ago. I cranked up the heat belt to hit 90, and also used a racking cane and co2 tank to bubble co2 in the carboy to resuspend the yeast. Just checked gravity today, down to 1.013, OG on this guy was 1.067. 3724 is fickle, but it can chew its way down if you give it heat and time. Hoping to get into single digits in a week or two.

 

[ShartAttack]

Well, over two weeks and it's still going! I've been checking the gravity periodically and I've generally been getting some airlock activity as well. The temperature inside my apartment has generally been in the mid 70s, but one day when it got into the 90s I put it out on the balcony for a few hours and that seemed to wake it up a bit.

On day 1 the OG was 1.055. Today is day 16 and the SG is 1.010. I figure it still needs a few more days, all in all I think fermentation will have taken about 3 weeks to complete while my other beers have taken about a week. So I guess that makes it trickier to a degree, but given I didn't have any problems with it stalling (knock on wood) I would say it's been good.

 

[milsman2]

Son of a *****. Just took a hydrometer reading on my dark saison with a 1.072 SG. It is a week out @74F and I'm only down to 1.034. I'm going to add 3/4 lb. of dextrose into the primary and let it sit in my South Texas garage and see how this yeast likes it. This has been my only beer in a year of brewing to poop out on me.

 

[ne0t0ky0]

I highly suggest using something to inject co2 to stir up the yeast, and hit it with the heat. I just finished an 8 week primary run with 3724... and it was definitely worth the wait, but It could have been less time if I had been rousing the yeast sooner. 90F and co2 rousing brought me down from 1.038 to 1.004 in about 4 weeks.

 

[triangulum33]

I have a small Saison that went from 1.043 to 1.006 in 14 days with 3724. I pitched at around 78* and ramped it up slowly a degree every 2 days. Currently at 85* headed to 90*.

 

[beauvafr]

Did a 1.5 L 2-steps starter.

From 1.062 to 1.007 in 3.5 weeks. Slowly ramped from 65 to 82-83. Put the fermentor in a tub with an aquarium heater. Maintained over 80 for the last 14 days.

No sulfur smell. Taste really good! But I am gonna wait a couple of days and take another sample.

 

[jheld00]

Ive had 10gal fermenting for a 1.5 weeks now. I pitched at 70 and ramped up to "88" Great Scott! with an aquarium heater. Each fermenter seems to be chugging along. hopefully with the combination of injected oxygen, a starter, and nice warm temps 3724 will attenuate without many hiccups. I plan on taking a gravity reading on monday or tuesday, to see what kind of progress has been made.

 

[PricePeeler]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevmoron
It looks like I'm in the same boat as others on this, with 3724...

I mashed 9 lbs of Castle Pilsner malt at 145 for 90 min (this one is a SMaSH), then 158 for 30. Added 1 pound of sucrose, and came out with an OG of 1.060.

Pitched a 1-liter starter at 85F, allowing the temperature to rise to 90. Fermentation took off like nothing I have ever seen.

I had a two-inch krausen within TWO HOURS of pitching.
4 hours, maximum Krausen at around 4 inches high.
9 hours, Krausen already going down a bit.
Went to bed, and 16 hours after pitching I see that the Krausen is almost totally gone and bubbles are coming once every 15 seconds (for the record, I have a thermowell and digital controller keeping everything at a rock solid, steady 90 F, so yes this is actually a decent indicator of CO2 evolution).
20 hours, and Krausen is totally gone. SG is at 1.040 (grrrr).

Looks like I'm in this for the long haul. I'm going to let the temp drop one degree each day to about 80 because I'm just a little freaked out about the prospect of up to six weeks on a yeast cake at 90 F.

Just an FYI to follow up on the above - as I said the OG was 1.060 and it slowed sharply at 1.040. I let the thing go for 6 weeks and it finished at 1.002 (not a typo).

I realize I am quoting a post from page 7 of 20 here, but this is a great update.
-Finished at 1.002 in 6 weeks

 

[ShartAttack]

I really wish I understood what makes this yeast tick... I was really paranoid from reading all of the stories here that mine would get stuck, but it plugged along, albeit slowly. Spent most of its time in the mid 70s, and while it took about 3 weeks to finish up, it made gradual progress through that time. I guess most of my other beers are done fermenting in about a week but I still thought it went pretty well even though I didn't have the higher temperature.

 

[Sebas83]

Chill your saison to 85 degrees
Ferment at 92 degrees for three weeks
Age at 55 degrees for two weeks
Carbonate
DONE!

This is the advice to take with this yeast. It's Dupont's yeast! You can't *****foot around with it. Pitch hot, ferment hotter. It's not going to bite. But, it's the only way to get those crazy flavors.

That, or just finish it off with 3711 once you stall.

 

[PricePeeler]

06/28 update:
Brewed two separate 5 gallon recipes on 06/09 less than three weeks ago. Created a single 2L starter and split it between my two batches.
Pitched at 85 and placed in 85 degree fermentation chamber.
4 days later increased temp to 90 in chamber.
Less than three weeks later both batches are below 1.010.
I am going to let them drop a little more then keg and cold crash when space in my keezer frees up. They can condition there while they carb up.

Just wanted to share my success story, the only time I agitated the wort was when I dropped sugar water in one of the car boys a couple of days into fermentation

 

[PricePeeler]

06/28 update:
Brewed two separate 5 gallon recipes on 06/09 less than three weeks ago. Created a single 2L starter and split it between my two batches.
Pitched at 85 and placed in 85 degree fermentation chamber.
4 days later increased temp to 90 in chamber.
Less than three weeks later both batches are below 1.010.
I am going to let them drop a little more then keg and cold crash when space in my keezer frees up. They can condition there while they carb up.

Just wanted to share my success story, the only time I agitated the wort was when I dropped sugar water in one of the car boys a couple of days into fermentation

7/3 update:
Both batches are below 1.005.!
Will be cold crashing batches in fermenter until I have room in the keezer. I have some friends coming over to empty a couple of kegs for me.

 

[TAK]

Is anyone opposed to rousing this yeast, or do most find that it only helps? I've seen it mentioned a few times. To me though, I can't stop thinking about the oxigenation taking place when you swirl the carboy. I'm 27 days into fermentation, and I'm debating back and forth with myself: to rouse, or not to rouse.

I pitched at 88* into 1.063 wort. I had a krausen quickly, and raised it 1 degree per day to 92*, and it's been there since. I took my first reading at day 17, it read about 1.019, past the hump. At day 23 it was about 1.016. Two days after that, it reads a notch lower in brix, but SG adjustments still put it at 1.016.

There is airlock activity about every 24 seconds at the moment. I feel the urge to rouse the yeast, but then I feel like that might just be impatience rearing its ugly head. If its creeping along, is it better to just let it do its own thing?

 

[ne0t0ky0]

Definitely rouse. I attach my co2 hose to a sanitized racking cane to push co2 to the bottom of the carboy. This is more effective than swirling and it pushes any o2 out of the carboy since you are bubbling co2 up from the bottom.

co2 rousing and high temp, 85-90 was what worked for me.

 

[Sebas83]

Indeed. 1 bubble/24s is not bad. It'll continue to drop. Co2 rouse is a good one. Rotating the carboy back and forth won't oxygenate the wort as the only air in the carboy is co2 and you won't be sloshing it around.

If it stalls, just add 3711 and ta-da!

 

[TAK]

Definitely rouse. I attach my co2 hose to a sanitized racking cane to push co2 to the bottom of the carboy. This is more effective than swirling and it pushes any o2 out of the carboy since you are bubbling co2 up from the bottom.

co2 rousing and high temp, 85-90 was what worked for me.

That's a great idea, does the job, but without aerating. Unfortunately, I don't have CO2. The only options for me, that I can think of, are A) swirl the carboy, or B) sanitize something like my racking cane and stir the cake up. A seems like it would do the best job getting the yeast into suspension, but at the expense of aeration. For that reason I like B better, but I don't expect that it will be exceedingly effective.

 

[TAK]

Man, this yeast is self-righteous. It&#8217;s like a self-absorbed date. She&#8217;s gonna make you wait for her while she gets ready, doesn&#8217;t care if you have reservations.

I&#8217;m 49 days after pitching, and it&#8217;s still eking along. I&#8217;ve been taking periodic refractometer readings along the way. At day 17, I approximated almost 75% attenuation. I went from 1.063 to 1.016. After that, it&#8217;s just been crawling, but still attenuating. At day 33, I was at about 81% attenuation, 82% at day 44, 84% at day 47. The airlock keeps slow steady activity, a burp about every 30-45 seconds, and every time I check the gravity, it&#8217;s dropped, but just by a hair at a time.

As much as I&#8217;d like to bottle this, I know it&#8217;s against my better judgment to bottle without steady gravity readings. By now it looks like I&#8217;m going to be at least 60 days on primary! Nonetheless, I have to say it&#8217;s worth it. Every test I&#8217;ve taken has tasted amazing. It has a smooth fruit and mellow hoppy flavor up front, balanced with a crisp, dry spice in the back. Wyeast says that it will have a mildly acidic finish that benefits from elevated fermentation temperatures. In the later samples that I&#8217;ve taken, a very pleasing acidic finish has developed which is getting more prominent as it continues to dry out.

 

[PricePeeler]

If you see any signs of activity, why mess with it. Let the yeast do their thing and keep the temp at 90ish.
After reading everyone's experiences, not sure how I got lucky enough to have mine finish in 4 weeks undisturbed. I pitched 1 liter, started at 85 F, and ramped up to 90.

Thoughts? Let's get to the bottom of this !!!

 

[beauvafr]

My second batch on 3724. I used the yeast left from my first batch. 1.050 to 1.005 in 15 days, which is not bad. Temp ranged from 68F to 78F so far. First 72 hours were at 68F.

I will let the temp rise a little bit, probably wait 7 days more at 80-85F and dry hop for 7 more days at 68F again. Then I will cold crash for 3 days.

Cheers everyone!