Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison Stall

[Vale71]

If this were the case, open fermentation would not be a thing. You might have a hard time convincing Anchor Brewing, Sam Smith, Schneider Weisse, among others.

There is no oxygen ingress in a properly conducted open fermentation. Personally I think that the term "open fermentation" is quite misleading but as that is what the industry is using who am I to argue against that?

 

[Vale71]

Why would I fret over the details when it's problem solved?

If throwing away a perfectly good batch of beer is a solution to you then yes, problem solved. Alternatively you could try and actually adress the issue you seem to be obviously having with your starters.

 

[Vale71]

This.

I've tried a second blast of oxygen into fermentation (no later than 24 hrs) in two circumstances. VERY strong beers (15% ABV or so). And lagers, if the pitching rate is less than ideal, though I don't do that unless I have no choice. In both cases, beer definitely isn't ruined.

I did say "once fermentation is under way", didn't I?

 

[Kenmoron]

Seems like you just want to argue with people. I can quote plenty of professional brewers talking about controlled oxygen ingress during open fermentation and how they feel it leads to differences in the quality of their beer and yeast expression. You are entitled to your own opinion. I was simply offering up my own experiences and information/advice I have to offer. But honestly, I don't want to keep a back and forth going. I'll stop posting on this thread.

 

[duncan.brown]

Following @MikeCo's advice, I bumped the temperature back up to 80F and fermentation has taken off again. The krausen, which had all but disappeared, has reappeared. There's more airlock activity and the gravity is dropping.

Looks like letting the 3724 cool to the bottom end of its temperature range slowed it right down. Next time I start with the pure culture, I'll try and keep the yeast at 80F. The helles in the Chronicle next door is aghast at these temperatures

I'll also try a re-pitch of from this batch as @rhys333 and others suggested to see if ferments out faster.

The temperature dropped a bit overnight is because I'm using a heating pad with an auto-off. Once I get the brew belt off the chronicle, I'll use that.

 

[monkeymath]

Isn't the exchange of personal experience the very purpose of an online forum such as this? Dismissing it as purely anecdotal is certainly correct from an epistemological point of view, but it is absurd to demand scientific rigour in a discourse such as this.

A lot of people have experienced this sort of "stall" with this yeast strain. If you haven't, good for you, and potentially good for everyone as that could allow us to determine the differences which cause this behaviour. But just shouting "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG, IDIOTS" will probably not help advance this discussion.

I, for one, have only brewed a single beer with this yeast, and it did stall on me for two weeks or so. I heated my bathroom up to 32 degrees Celsius in the middle of the summer. My girlfriend was not thrilled, but the beer was well worth it.
It's a strange behaviour, but not in itself harmful, I think.

 

[Gregory T]

I brewed 3 back to back to back Saisons with Dupont yeast and no stall using an open fermentation with tape instead of an airlock

https://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/guide-saisons-and-saison-yeasts

 

[duncan.brown]

Isn't the exchange of personal experience the very purpose of an online forum such as this? Dismissing it as purely anecdotal is certainly correct from an epistemological point of view, but it is absurd to demand scientific rigour in a discourse such as this.

Couldn't agree more, both as a home brewer and as a professional scientist.

 

[duncan.brown]

Well this has been one long ferment. Almost a month and it's at 1.011 according to my Tilt (the fast fermentation test got to 1.003). The gravity looks like it's still slowly dropping. I think I'm going to rack to a keg with a spunding valve on it and see what happens. I'll try a second batch with the same yeast this weekend.

 

[Gregory T]

Well this has been one long ferment. Almost a month and it's at 1.011 according to my Tilt (the fast fermentation test got to 1.003). The gravity looks like it's still slowly dropping. I think I'm going to rack to a keg with a spunding valve on it and see what happens. I'll try a second batch with the same yeast this weekend.

View attachment 693728

I recommend open fermentation with 3724

 

[goodolarchie]

I am going to do a side-by-side fermentation (1 gal each) of

(1) 2nd gen 3724 slurry
(2) heavily propped up WLP 565
(3) combination of both

This will all be loosely foil'd in a temp controlled closet, pitch at 67 for 24 hrs, free rise to 78 thereafter. (I have never found the "open" fermentation to avoid the stall, but it doesn't hurt)

Drew mentions in the Maltose Falcons that he likes #3 so it will be interesting to compare. I will take SG readings at day 3 (usually when the stall is real), day 7, and every 7 days after that.

 

[yeastseeker]

I think the stall is most likely due to the temperature drop. That yeast likes to be warm, and most yeasts don’t react well to cooling after fermentation begins. Heat it up to 80 or even 90 to get it to finish faster. See Wyeast recommendations here:

https://wyeastlab.com/yeast-strain/belgian-saison

I'd venture to guess this is teh source of alot of homebrew stalling.

 

[goodolarchie]

I'd venture to guess this is teh source of alot of homebrew stalling.

The "stall" is only really problematic if fermentation doesn't kick back up, and vigorously enough to finish in a reasonable timeframe (ideally not 8 freakin' weeks), and fully attenuated like a Saison commands. By that I mean, the stall is just a pitstop, it's the petering out after that's really problematic. Sometimes the stall is so short that you go to bed and miss it by the time you wake up, but my experience with 3724 specifically is that it can be reeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaallllly slow to finish attenuating.

I recently did a 3724 fermentation, pitched a healthy active starter at 67ºF into 1.044 wort, oxygenated and put foil atop the 4" port in my conical. It stalled day 2 per usual at 1.035, had free risen to about 72F. At that point I cranked the heat each day by about 4ºF, until it was up to 91ºF... it was still trickling along in the teens (1.016) after a couple weeks. I re-activated the portion of 3724 starter I set aside cold from the initial pitch, propped it up to what would be considered a proper ale initial pitch rate, and carefully pitched it again (without oxygenating).

Over the next five weeks (to nearly 2 months after brew day) the primary slowly marched its way down to 1.005, which is about expected FG for my 150ºF mash.

Bottom line, I'm looking to keep using this amazing yeast for the sublime phenolic and ester results without the finicky hiccups along the way. To me that means not require more than 2-3 weeks to finish, and reliably reach a FG inline with the style. I've tried the open ferment a couple times, and using Wyeast's recco of raising to high 80's low 90's. Hence my vertical yeast experiment above where everything else is held constant.

 

[rhys333]

I'll try a second batch with the same yeast this weekend.

Brace for impact.

 

[TheCache]

I have a petite saison just finishing fermentation (extract with steep). It's OG was 1.036 so rather low to start with (expected 1.034 to 1.038 so well within range). Maybe that's the secret, start under the stall range and your good to go

Anyway, made a starter at around 74 degrees, pitched it into 73 degree wort. I had heard so much about 3724 needing a warm place to ferment, I put the fermonster in the garage, which runs between 78 and 82 (night/day), and wrapped it in a towel. Temps on the monster stayed around ramped up over about 36 hours and then stayed at 79-81 the whole time. I'm in Iowa so the humidity helps hold the temp. Krausen was forming within hours, but never got to be more than around 1/4 inch and did not start to drop unitl around 9 days. That's a little longer than I am used to, but after 9 days gravity was at 1.006, after 12 days 1.004. Again, to see it still dropping after 12 days it not something I'm used to, but it confirms to me that 3724 can have a slower fermtation. I'll check it again at 14 days and if its stable I'll bottle it in a few days.

The samples have that wonderful Belgian spice flavor, a bit peppery at 006, but smoother at 004. I have not tested 3724 fermentation at a cooler temp, but this first batch seemed to do really well in a consistent 80 degree room and a rather warm pitch temp.

 

[Gregory T]

I find it interesting that higher temperature, agitation, and open fermentation all work to decrease the solubility of CO2 in the fermenting beer. Many site one of these factors as either preventing or ending the stall. Depending on the Fast Ferment test process, it could also work to decrease solubility.

Yeast sensitivity to CO2 toxicity could be the factor

I further wonder if perhaps 2nd generation usage yields yeast less sensitive to CO2

 

[yeastseeker]

I find it interesting that higher temperature, agitation, and open fermentation all work to decrease the solubility of CO2 in the fermenting beer. Many site one of these factors as either preventing or ending the stall. Depending on the Fast Ferment test process, it could also work to decrease solubility.

Yeast sensitivity to CO2 toxicity could be the factor

I further wonder if perhaps 2nd generation usage yields yeast less sensitive to CO2

I think it was Escarpment labs that determined absence of simple sugar+presence of O2 caused diastatic enzyme production in this yeast

 

[Gregory T]

I brewed 3 Saisons back to back last year without a stall using open fermentation.

I just brewed 10 gallons last week open fermentation, they are at day 8 1.012. I did rack to glass carboys on day 2 when they were at 1.034

 

[duncan.brown]

I just brewed 10 gallons last week open fermentation, they are at day 8 1.012. I did rack to glass carboys on day 2 when they were at 1.034

Nice, thanks for the data. A couple of questions: Was the yeast 3724? How much yeast did you pitch?

Life got in the way of kegging this weekend, but my saison is still chugging away. The tilt reading on the attached plot is slightly high, as my FG hydrometer read 1.006 when I took a sample. Tastes great though. I’ll likely keg this weekend and start carbing it up.

 

[Gregory T]

Nice, thanks for the data. A couple of questions: Was the yeast 3724? How much yeast did you pitch?

Life got in the way of kegging this weekend, but my saison is still chugging away. The tilt reading on the attached plot is slightly high, as my FG hydrometer read 1.006 when I took a sample. Tastes great though. I’ll likely keg this weekend and start carbing it up.

I used 3724. I made a 2 step starter for 10 gallons 1.6 liter then 2.0 liter for .86 cells/ml/°P according to brewers friend calculator. It was split into 2 5 gallon buckets with approximately 1/2 yeast in each. I did not cold crash or decant the starter

I am 4 for 4 with open fermentation using 3724 assuming this one finishes up around 1.002 or less, but from my understanding it is past the stall point

 

[duncan.brown]

I made a 2 step starter for 10 gallons 1.6 liter then 2.0 liter for .86 cells/ml/°P according to brewers friend calculator. It was split into 2 5 gallon buckets with approximately 1/2 yeast in each. I did not cold crash or decant the starter

Thanks. My cell count was a bit lower than yours (0.75M cells / mL / °P for a 5 gal batch). I'm going to re-brew this with a slightly higher pitch rate and without letting the temperature drop. I'll do a closed fermentation first and then repeat with open.

I did drink my hydrometer sample and it tasted great. Still yeast in suspension, but definitely got the phenolic character I was looking for.

 

[Queequeg]

I did need all the replies so sorry if it been said.

IMO you have over pitched and as such you don't have enough daughter cells "born" during the growth phase. So you relying on a single generation to ferment the whole batch.

You have also pitch too warm. Belgian yeast don't like temperature drops, pitching warm means the wort will cool at fermentation slows. You better off pitching cooler say 70 and let it free rise and was it gets towards the last 25% heat it up. You want the temp to continuously rise during fermentation, left to its own devices the opposite will happen and you risk a stall. This problem is compounded by your very high pitch rate.

Also I don't know what your O2 practices are but I always use 60 secs of pure O2 at 1L/min.

I have never had problems with that yeast or other Belgians/saison strains

 

[Gregory T]

Thanks. My cell count was a bit lower than yours (0.75M cells / mL / °P for a 5 gal batch). I'm going to re-brew this with a slightly higher pitch rate and without letting the temperature drop. I'll do a closed fermentation first and then repeat with open.

I did drink my hydrometer sample and it tasted great. Still yeast in suspension, but definitely got the phenolic character I was looking for.

I hope you will update here on the next batch. I was t able to get this one as warm as I’d like.

I am obviously a big believer in open fermentation with this yeast. I found it interesting even when Marshall from brulosophy did it without a stall he was constantly opening the fermentor to test

I lean towards the yeast being overly sensitive to CO2 dissolved in the wort which is obviously effected by temperature, agitation, and removing the airlock so it escapes.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

Stall or not, it’s definitely worth the effort. Champagne bottles and lots of CO2 as well

 

[rhys333]

I'm curious to know how that second batch using the harvested yeast is coming along @duncan.brown

 

[duncan.brown]

I kegged this beer at 1.004 and it's currently carbonating (it tasted great when I kegged it).

Life got in the way of harvesting the yeast from this batch, but I just picked up a fresh packet of 3724 from the LHBS and I'm going to try the second experiment first: I'll make the same sized starter from the fresh pack, pitch at 70F, raise the temp to 80F and keep it there without ever letting the temperature drop (with closed fermentation). This will tell me if it was the temp drop that slowed the yeast down.

I'm betting that I'll see a similar month long ferment to get below 1.010.

After that, I'll post the results, harvest the yeast, and re-pitch. Then I'll try open fermentation, if needed. I'll keep updating this thread with results.

Here's the final fermentation profile of the original batch at kegging.

 

[NTexBrewer]

I was talking with a brewing friend about this thread the other day. He relayed what most have stated regarding pitching the yeast slurry produces faster fermentations and better phenolic qualities.

last time I brewed with 3724 I added a little of M29 French Saison yeast sprinkled on top to ensure a consistent fermentation. Final gravity in 12 days. Best Saison I’ve brewed and it won 1st place at the 2020 Belgian Brew Brawl.

I was intrigued by what my friend said about pitching the slurry so I’m planning to set up a run of beers. First a 3 gallon batch of Belgian Pale Ale, Then use the slurry for a 3 gallon batch of Hommel Bier, then use the Slurry for a 5 gallon Saison.

 

[Gregory T]

Just put mine in for cold crash. One was at 1.001 and the other at 1.002.

 

[duncan.brown]

The original batch is now carbed to 3 volumes, which is giving my flow-control taps a workout, but it is delicious. A bit darker than I was going for, but can't blame the yeast for that.

Definitely going to follow through on these experiments and brew a few more batches.