Wyeast 3191 VSS Berliner Weisse Blend

[MarcoEsquandolas]

Hello, I am new to this forum (and homebrewing on my own), but excited to engage!

I have a carboy of Berliner Weisse, pitched with Wyeast 3191 on the night of Sunday Feb10. I have 4.5-5gal from this 40 gal all grain batch:

[Part of] A ProMash Brewing Session Report:
Brewing Date: Sunday February 10, 2008
Batch Size (Gal): 40.00 Wort Size (Gal): 40.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 50.00
Anticipated OG: 1.034 Plato: 8.4
Anticipated SRM: 2.5
Anticipated IBU: 5.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 30 Minutes

Actual OG: 1.034 Plato: 8.4
Actual FG: 1.012 Plato: 3.1

Alc by Weight: 2.21 by Volume: 2.82 From Measured Gravities.
ADF: 63.6 RDF 52.9 Apparent & Real Degree of
Fermentation.

Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.032 SG 8.1 Plato

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %

Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Extract SRM
54.0 27.00 lbs. Pilsener Germany 54.0 2
34.0 17.00 lbs. Wheat Malt Germany 34.9 2
12.0 6.00 lbs. Sauer(acid) Malt 11.0 2
Extract represented as 20013302f Total Extract.

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
4.00 oz. Crystal Pellet 3.25 4.1 30 min.
4.00 oz. Crystal Pellet 3.25 1.3 5 min.

Extras
Amount Name Type Time
0.84 Oz Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil)

Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse
Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
Sacc 5 45 148 148 Infuse 155 102.00 2.04

Boil Time (min): 30.00
****************************

The above recipe used a Wit yeast, but I used the Wyeast 3191 VSS in my carboy. I hope I provided enough info about the recipe, because I didn't understand parts of that ProMash report that someone else generated for our brewday.


-So my questions are:
When should I rack it off the trub into another carboy? Anything I should do differently for this beer?

What are the pros and cons of doing this at different points? I'd like some sour and funk, but no green apple or butterscotch or esters.

I assume the 3-6 months Wyeast refers to is in the secondary carboy?

It's been about 70-72 degrees in my apartment. Is it that beneficial to make the secondary vessel a bit colder?

Should I be doing anything with a thief and hydrometer for this beer, besides when I do the transfer? What will the density tell me?

Thanks! I will definitely post the results, as well as forward any comments about the recipe to the head brewer. Your input is much appreciated. May the homebrew gods bless you...

 

[Beerrific]

Sorry Marco, this is my first sour beer so I can't help but thanks for the bump I meant to respond.

I brewed this on Friday and it has gone from 1.030 to 1.008 in 5 days, fast stuff. It tastes very thin and can't wait for it to sour. I am almost considering racking this to a keg along with some of the yeast, etc. soon as my bucket is not sealing well and attaching a airlock. Any problems with that?

 

[landhoney]

So my questions are:
When should I rack it off the trub into another carboy? Anything I should do differently for this beer?

What are the pros and cons of doing this at different points? I'd like some sour and funk, but no green apple or butterscotch or esters.

I assume the 3-6 months Wyeast refers to is in the secondary carboy?

It's been about 70-72 degrees in my apartment. Is it that beneficial to make the secondary vessel a bit colder?

Should I be doing anything with a thief and hydrometer for this beer, besides when I do the transfer? What will the density tell me?

I think you're doing fine. Rack off a few(5-7) days after primary has finished, when the airlock moves only a couple times a day total. The temp should be fine, Wyeast said "high sixties to low seventies" so your temp seems good. You could chec the gravity before transfering to secondary, it should be in the single digits, in other words below 1.010, or in the 1.000-1.009 range. If its higher than 1.010, maybe leave it in primary longer.
The density/gravity will tell you when the beer is done. In a couple months if the gravity doesn't change for a couple weeks the beer should be done, as long as the gravity is in the mid to low single digits, or 1.006 and below. It should finish 1.003-1.006 or below. If its higher, give it more time. Basically you want a low, stable gravity before bottling. Hope this helps.

 

[MarcoEsquandolas]

Rack off a few(5-7) days after primary has finished, when the airlock moves only a couple times a day total.

It's been a week and a half, so I suppose I will take a reading and transfer into another carboy tomorrow night. Whats the harm in leaving it on top of this particular trub after the 7 days since pitching? I don't want to sacrifice sour/funk or mouthfeel/thickness for visual clarity.

Where are the Lacto and Brett right now, in regards to concentration (suspended/settled), as well as lifespan ? It's my understanding that the Brett will get going once the other 2 yeasts are pretty much dormant/dead?

Thanks!

 

[Beerrific]

I e-mailed Wyeast with some questions on this blend, I thought I would share their response:

I ran a test brew with the 3191 recently. I fermneted in the primary
for 4 weeks. At week 1 pH was 3.5. Week 2 3.1 and by week 4 the beer
was done fermenting and bright. I bottled it at the end of week 4. I
will probabaly let the bottles prime at 70oF for 2 weeks and then drink
some, but let a few condition at around 60 for a few months to develop
the Brettanomyces character.

Should I get to the point... If you plan on long term conditioning in a
craroy, I would rack it after about 7 days and condition at cooler temps
in the secondary. I think the long term conditioning can also be done
in bottles. The acid production should be 95% done by this point.

If you rack to a secondary, don't worry about carring over a lof of
yeats. T 7 days, there will be plenty left in suspension.

Let me know if you have other questions.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories
(541) 354-1335

So I think I am check the pH tomorrow. The taste I had last night did not taste sour at all so I am kind of confused.

 

[landhoney]

It's been a week and a half, so I suppose I will take a reading and transfer into another carboy tomorrow night. Whats the harm in leaving it on top of this particular trub after the 7 days since pitching? I don't want to sacrifice sour/funk or mouthfeel/thickness for visual clarity.
Where are the Lacto and Brett right now, in regards to concentration (suspended/settled), as well as lifespan ? It's my understanding that the Brett will get going once the other 2 yeasts are pretty much dormant/dead?
Thanks!

You can leave it in primary longer, as Jess's response to Beerrific indicates, mine is still in primary, and it has been at least 4 weeks I believe. I am not sure where the Brett and Lacto are in the mix, but they both need some time to finish off everything in the beer. BTW, Brett is a yeast while Lacto is a bacteria. Both will ferment things 'regular' yeast cannot.

Thanks for the info Beerrific.

 

[MarcoEsquandolas]

Thats funny, Beerrific; I also emailed Wyeast before I saw your post and got a very similar response. He added:

I know our description says to age for 3-6 months, but I think this is only really necessary to develop the Brett character of the beer and not necessarliy to increase acidity.

We designed the blend to produce a sour beer in a fairly short amount of time. The development of the Brett character can't really be rushed though.

One note: Be sure to keep IBUs on the brews with 3191 under 10 IBUs.
Anything over will inhibit the Lactobacillus and your beer will not sour.​

 

[Beerrific]

Checked the pH last night: 4.0. This was on fermentation day 6.

 

[MarcoEsquandolas]

I just took a hydrometer reading. Is it possible that the specific gravity was less than 1? It seemed to be 0.990 at room temp.

It didn't taste all that sour but I think I could sense the lacto and brett.

Should I bottle?

Thanks!

When I do bottle, should anything be different about bottling this particular brew? I'm thinking use slightly less priming sugar so the brett doesn't cause a "bottle bomb," and since BerlinerWeisses are typically a little less carbonated...?

 

[landhoney]

I just took a hydrometer reading. Is it possible that the specific gravity was less than 1? It seemed to be 0.990 at room temp.
It didn't taste all that sour but I think I could sense the lacto and brett.
Should I bottle?
Thanks!
When I do bottle, should anything be different about bottling this particular brew? I'm thinking use slightly less priming sugar so the brett doesn't cause a "bottle bomb," and since BerlinerWeisses are typically a little less carbonated...?

It is possible to be below 1.000, but fairly rare. Check some room temp water and make sure the hydrometer is correct. Also, because you're at such a low FG(not possible to get too much lower I think) you don't need to worry about bottle bombs. Yeast or Brett or whatever would fully ferment bottling sugar, so as long as you use the 'correct' amount of sugar you should be fine. You get bottle bombs with Brett when you bottle too soon at too high a FG, you think the beer is done at 1.008 and bottle but its not. The 'bombs' occur from the extra fermentables(for Brett) left in the beer, not in the priming sugar. Lastly, its my experience that BW's are typically more/highly carbonated, not less. But of course, do whatever you wish. At below 1.000 I'd say you are safe to bottle, as long as that number is correct.

 

[MarcoEsquandolas]

Turns out the hydrometer was a little broken, so the reading I just took with the new one should be much closer to accurate:
1.009 at room temp, so about 1.0095 with the adjustment

I thought it'd be a bit lower by this point, but then again, I'm a noob when it comes to fermenting beer on my own...so again, thanks for your advice!

 

[landhoney]

Hey, just bottled this bad boy, and it is good and it is sour. I haven't tasted until now, but I'm very impressed. Again, my method was no boil, no heating of the wort in a pot at all, and it has not been racked. It was still in primary when I racked and bottled tonight. Its been at least two months, and at most three(need to check) and I needed the carboy so I bottled tonight. As long as nothing gets messed up I think I have a winner. Its pretty clean tasting despite the Brett, but it does have some subtle complexity that may be from the Brett. As long as the bottle conditioning goes well I think 3191 did a great job. :rockin:

 

[Beerrific]

I actually tasted this beer a couple nights ago. It has been in the keg a little less than 2 months. The sourness has definitely picked up some more sourness. I can detect a bit of brett. As it is, it will be a nice summer beer, but some more sour/funkiness would be nice.

 

[Ryanh1801]

So has anyone came to a conclusion as to no boil this, or boil it?

 

[Beerrific]

So has anyone came to a conclusion as to no boil this, or boil it?

I might be inclined to not boil next time. But, since I was pitching the mixed culture I thought it would best to see how that came out without additional 'helpers.'

I checked the pH again, it is at 3.75. It is about to start getting nice and warm here so I hope that will kick things back into gear and bring that down a few more tenths.

 

[Ryanh1801]

I might be inclined to not boil next time. But, since I was pitching the mixed culture I thought it would best to see how that came out without additional 'helpers.'

I checked the pH again, it is at 3.75. It is about to start getting nice and warm here so I hope that will kick things back into gear and bring that down a few more tenths.

Ok cool. I might just knock out ten gallons of this, it would take no time at all to do another 5 gallons. Thanks again Beerific. Hopefully it turns out good and I can send ya some.

 

[landhoney]

So has anyone came to a conclusion as to no boil this, or boil it?

I'm very happy with mine(no boil), it needs to carb more - hopefully I added enough priming sugar. If not I'm chillin them down, popping them open, and adding more. They're pretty good IMO.

 

[Ryanh1801]

Ok im gonna go ahead and do a no boil. What temps did you use?

 

[landhoney]

Ok im gonna go ahead and do a no boil. What temps did you use?

I thought I posted in this thread and was going to call you lazy...but thought better of it and checked myself. I was indeed wrong, here the link to another BW thread where I actually gave some details. I followed the guy on NB forum almost exactly except the yeast. Single decoction, mash hop, a couple long low restes and then no-boil:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=481090&postcount=1

 

[landhoney]

Don't wade through that, here you go:

Let me post my recipe in this thread.

I'll be making 15 gallons of it soon. I'm growing some lacto at 98F as we speak!


The comments at the bottom are Mashweasel's.


The IBUs are wrong due to no-boil but they should be in the 5IBU range...

8@tch #27 - Berliner Weissbier - 2nd try
Berliner Weiss


Type: All Grain
Date: 1/15/2008
Batch Size: 15.00 gal
Brewer: Andreas Georgiades
Boil Size: 15.88 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 0 min Equipment: Brew Pot (6+gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (5 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
7 lbs 12.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 50.00 %
7 lbs 12.0 oz Wheat Unmalted (3.0 SRM) Grain 50.00 %
1.50 oz Magnum [14.00 %] (0 min) (Mash Hop) Hops -
1 Pkgs German Ale II (White Labs #WLP003) Yeast-Ale
3 Pkgs Lactobacillus Delbrueckii (Wyeast Labs #4335) [Add to Secondary] Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.028 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.030 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.006 SG Measured Final Gravity: 0.997 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 2.78 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4.29 %
Bitterness: 0.0 IBU Calories: 123 cal/pint
Est Color: 2.9 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Decoction Mash, Single Total Grain Weight: 15.50 lb
Sparge Water: 10.24 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Decoction Mash, Single Step Time Name Description Step Temp
35 min Protein Rest Add 31.00 qt of water at 127.5 F 122.0 F
45 min Saccharification Decoct 13.37 qt of mash and boil it 155.0 F
10 min Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 10 min 168.0 F



Mash Notes: Used in some authentic German styles. Attempt to draw decoction from the thickest portion of the mash. Profiles vary. Some traditional German mashes use a long acid rest at 40 deg C. Also some sources recommend the decoction amount be given a 15 minute saccharification rest at 158 F (70 C) before boiling it.
Carbonation and Storage

Carbonation Type: Corn Sugar Volumes of CO2: 4.0
Pressure/Weight: 25.9 oz Carbonation Used: -
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 75.0 F Age for: 28.0 days
Storage Temperature: 52.0 F

Notes

The souring of the beer comes from the lactobacillus found on the grain when it ferments, NOT before fermentation. As I said before. A simple grist of 50% wheat and 50% pils is the way to go. Something like 10 IBUs of any german hop will be fine of which they will be mash hopped. A single decoction is a must b/c this beer is not boiled. A sour mash will not accomplish the level of sourness, carbonation and dryness for which this style is known. Pitch both ale yeast and lactobacillus.

Fermentation: Open fermentation for 4 days, starting at 68F going up to 75F. 2ndary, ~75F for 7 days.

Bottle condition: Repitch fresh yeast and bacteria to about 4-4.5vol of CO2. Its going to have to stay in the bottles for quite a while.

This is really the only way to do a Berliner Weiss and have it come out in the traditional manner. Ive had a bunch of sour mashed beers and they just don't taste right. They either have a ton of other flavors from the sour mash or they have to big of body, not dry enough and not sour enough. People then take to adding a bunch of lactic acid.

Mash hop. Do a multistep rest. 135F x 2 hours, 149 x 1 hour, bring it up to 170F x 10min and then don't boil <- This is what I did -landhoney. Add lacto and yeast at a 3:1 ratio to start. This will give you a good idea of what the beer will be like. You will be missing a lot of the 'wheaty' flavor but if you are going to try this style, you have to get the fermentation and lacto:yeast right. MUST bottle condition. If you do it this way, let it sit in the bottle and forget about it. Then do another one with your 'fast' method. Then compare the two.

All the above is someone else speaking/typing about what someone(mashweasel/kristen) else said

 

[landhoney]

Long reply to your easy answer, should have just said: I did a multistep rest. 135F x 2 hours, 149 x 1 hour, bring it up to 170F x 10min and then don't boil

 

[Ryanh1801]

Thank you!! I can't see the link for some reason, guess its something in Fightclub.

 

[Iordz]

Landhoney, I have a problem with my no boil Berliner: DMS! It seemed inevitable, since I was using pils malt and the wort wasn't boiled (only the decoction). How did you overcome the flaw?

 

[Ryanh1801]

Landhoney, I have a problem with my no boil Berliner: DMS! It seemed inevitable, since I was using pils malt and the wort wasn't boiled (only the decoction). How did you overcome the flaw?

Humm interesting, I had not even thought of that.

 

[Beerrific]

With the 15 minute boil and a fast chill, I had a lot of DMS in mine too. After sitting at room temperature for over 2 months it has all but disappeared. Its boiling point is 37C (98.6F), so a lot should get driven off in warmer temperatures.

 

[WDC]

I finally used my pack of 3191 over the weekend. It was the extract recipe from "Brewing Classic Styles".

This is my first time using Brett/Lacto and the lag time before signs of fermentation was over three days. Is there normally a longer lag on the sour beers? The pack was from March 04 so the yeast could very well have been past prime.

I plan to follow the advice above and rack to secondary when primary is complete. And then see about bottling another month later if it's sour enough.
I've got my fingers crossed for this batch. I haven't had a good and sour Berliner outside of Berlin yet.

 

[cmgray]

I used this blend a few weeks ago and also saw a very slow start. In fact, my airlock really never bubbled much but there was a bit of kreusen on top. I'm going to rack it tonight so we'll see if it did its job or not.

 

[cmgray]

Yeah, so I really didn't see any fermentation activity at all in my airlock, but after 3 weeks, it's at 1.006. I'd say it worked.

not sour yet, but here's hoping that in a few months it will be.

 

[hagbardceline]

A question about plastic and this yeast:

I have a blow off tube going into a 1 gallon drinking water jug but that spilled over into the big rubbermaid tote that i keep filled with water to control fermentation temp.

I am already planning on replacing the plastic hoses from racking but what about the tote and plastic jug? And the auto siphon?

 

[Beerrific]

Bumping this...

I tasted this again today. I had hoped to already have this on tap for consumption by now but other things have gotten in the way.

It has been about 7 months since I brewed this beer. It is sour. Not too sour. I wished it was a bit more sour. But, it has a great funky/sour aroma and flavor. I have some acid blend and I am itching to add a bit to see if a bit will bring the sourness up.

I am thinking of brewing this again and going for a method that will turn this beer out faster and with more sourness.

Anyone else?