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Wyeast 3191 VSS Berliner Weisse Blend

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landhoney

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http://www.wyeastlab.com/vssprogram.cfm?website=2

Thought I'd let everybody know now;)

Get it while its hot, I ordered mine:ban: ( some place online called high-gravity homebrew supply? - they'll probably just take my money and not ship anything :drunk: ) They also had some 3711 left :ban: - if anybody want to make a Saison this yeast is supposedly AWESOME

And to answer your question; yes, once you start using Brett you will ONLY be able to brew funky beers.
 
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landhoney

landhoney

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Well, LHBS had some today and couldn't resist buying it - so now I'll have two packs. I'm going to email Wyeast and ask about the 'best' options/techniques for using this mix. If/when they respond I'll be sure to post relevant info.

BTW, nobody cares about this one?
 

Beerrific

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Yeah, I care. I think I talked to you in the chat about it...

I am probably going to give this mix a try but I am waiting to hear what you say before I buy;)
 

the_bird

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I care - but I'm doing a batch the old-school way (blending a neutral ale yeast with a lacto culture). I probably would have chickened out of using Brett anyway... :D
 
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landhoney

landhoney

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Beerrific said:
Yeah, I care. I think I talked to you in the chat about it...
I am probably going to give this mix a try but I am waiting to hear what you say before I buy;)
I say buy, buy, buy! No, sell, sell, sell!;) Seriously though, they recommend 3-6 months for full flavor development( the brett I guess), so by the time I could give a recommendation it may not be available any more. Of course you could do it with two strains( Lacto and Ale strain), but if this blend turns out to be the best ever you may be SOL. I just emailed Wyeast with my questions, maybe they'll shed some light on how long it really needs. I don't want you to miss out waiting for reviews. You could always buy it, and just hold onto it for a while. :confused:
 

Beerrific

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landhoney said:
I say buy, buy, buy! No, sell, sell, sell!;) Seriously though, they recommend 3-6 months for full flavor development( the brett I guess), so by the time I could give a recommendation it may not be available any more. Of course you could do it with two strains( Lacto and Ale strain), but if this blend turns out to be the best ever you may be SOL. I just emailed Wyeast with my questions, maybe they'll shed some light on how long it really needs. I don't want you to miss out waiting for reviews. You could always buy it, and just hold onto it for a while. :confused:
I have been debating getting this or just using a regular yeast and a lacto culture. But, yeah, it is unfortunate that they say to age it for longer than they will be selling it.
 

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What about using the lacto that is on the malt? I have been thinking of trowing some uncrushed malt into a starter to sour it up, boil it to kill the lacto and then add it to the beer in the primary. These were idea's for brewing a Gose since I don't wan't to invite live lacto into my bottling bucket. It should also allow me to control the sourness.

Kai
 
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landhoney

landhoney

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Kaiser said:
What about using the lacto that is on the malt? I have been thinking of trowing some uncrushed malt into a starter to sour it up, boil it to kill the lacto and then add it to the beer in the primary. These were idea's for brewing a Gose since I don't wan't to invite live lacto into my bottling bucket. It should also allow me to control the sourness.
Kai
I bottled my Gose(need to update that thread, thanks for the reminder) and just found a bottle, so I'll be able to taste the real thing for the first time and compare it to my first attempt. I used a sour mash for it and a Berliner and they turned out very well, but this blend contains a Brett strain isolated from a now defunct brewery in Berlin. So that adds an interesting authenticity to the blend and should make an interesting/different beer. The other methods to make these beers are fine, but this is a unique blend that I look forward to trying.
 

Evan!

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Wait, LH actually brewed a Gose? I've never heard of anyone brewing one of those outside of Germany. I think I've actually only seen one on a shelf once.

Clarify, please...Gueuze or Gose?
 
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landhoney

landhoney

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Evan! said:
Wait, LH actually brewed a Gose? I've never heard of anyone brewing one of those outside of Germany. I think I've actually only seen one on a shelf once.
Clarify, please...Gueuze or Gose?
Yeah its Gose, I've never had one either. But will soon for a side by side with mine, as you see at the end of that thread. Prediction: mine will taste better ;) :D
I wish it were Gueze though, that's ~2.5 years off though(my first pLambic is only ~5 months old).

BTW, my EAC is coming out here, you think I'd make that mistake? :cool:
 

Evan!

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landhoney said:
Yeah its Gose, I've never had one either. But will soon for a side by side with mine, as you see at the end of that thread. Prediction: mine will taste better ;) :D
I wish it were Gueze though, that's ~2.5 years off though(my first pLambic is only ~5 months old).
Heh, so you decided to try the style, even though you've never had it, just because it's a crazy obscure sour beer.

I bow before you. :rockin:

BTW, my EAC is coming out here, you think I'd make that mistake? :cool:
I've seen some knowledgeable beer geeks misspell Gueuze, but yah, I should have known better from the Crown Prince of All That is Sour. Mah Bahd.
 
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landhoney

landhoney

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Evan! said:
Heh, so you decided to try the style, even though you've never had it, just because it's a crazy obscure sour beer.
I've seen some knowledgeable beer geeks misspell Gueuze, but yah, I should have known better from the Crown Prince of All That is Sour. Mah Bahd.
I've yet to meet a sour beer I didn't like, and it sounded good, so I found a recipe and thought I'd try it. And I wouldn't say 'Crown Prince' but I hope I never make a mistake like Gose vs. Gueze :D Not that its that huge. And, BTW, Nah Bahd Evan!.
 

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landhoney said:
I've yet to meet a sour beer I didn't like, and it sounded good, so I found a recipe and thought I'd try it. And I wouldn't say 'Crown Prince' but I hope I never make a mistake like Gose vs. Gueze :D Not that its that huge. And, BTW, Nah Bahd Evan!.
You'll like it. After having had the Berliner Weisse, Gose and a few funky Belgians (excuse my ignorance here) I decided that Gose is so far the only sour beer I liked.

And when I had the Gose I did not know about the salt or the coriander and I can't remeber either of these tastes. Just that there was something else there besides the sourness. At the time I attributed it to the malt bill. Similar to what I thought of Sam Adam's Summer Beer before I read that it is brewed with spices.

Kai
 
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landhoney

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Here's the response back from Wyeast to my questions on this blend:

"Mid 60s to low 70s is fine and I think this is the best range for this blend. Traditional BW is aged for this period of time, but I actually think you can use this blend to produce a good BW in a couple of months. Bottle when you see gravity stabilize. You will want to keep an eye on it after bottling... the Brett will munch on the more complex sugars. If you see the beer is becoming too carbonated, refrigerate them. Also, keep the IBUs low (below 8) for maximum Lactobacillus performance. "

I replied back, and asked about doing the no-boil method. I'm planning on employing this method with my Berliner Weisse with this blend. When they reply back, I'll be sure to post that response as well. It's taditional and I think the Lacto/etc. on the grain can survive the mash/sparge(maybe just mash, but then they'd still make it into the fermenter), thus making a more sour beer and possibly a more fermentable wort because of the no-boil( maybe? no idea on this though).
 
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landhoney

landhoney

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That was fast:

"I like the no boil method. In the tests I have done though, I bring the wort to a boil and then immediately turn off the heat. I do this to get a pretty good kill so we can see waht the bugs we are adding are doing."

So, I'm definitely going to try the no boil method. This will brewed this weekend. :rockin:
 

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I don't think any lacto or brett will survive at mash tempswhen the length of the mash will be over 30 min or so, but other bugs may.
 

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LH, are you planning to mash hop? I have been thinking about doing the "no-boil" method with a little mash hops.
 
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landhoney

landhoney

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Iordz said:
LH, are you planning to mash hop? I have been thinking about doing the "no-boil" method with a little mash hops.
Yes, thats what I'm doing. No boil, mash hop, single decoction. Doing it right now as a matter of fact :D
 

sause

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Lacto is a heat tolerant species. It doesn't do it's thing at saccharifition mash temps but it can survive up to almost boiling temps. Good luck land I'm going to have to do this one soon too. I might get two pack and see what diiference their might be.
 

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Kaiser said:
What about using the lacto that is on the malt? I have been thinking of trowing some uncrushed malt into a starter to sour it up, boil it to kill the lacto and then add it to the beer in the primary. These were idea's for brewing a Gose since I don't wan't to invite live lacto into my bottling bucket. It should also allow me to control the sourness.

Kai
Very easy to do. The method I use is crush some base malt, add some water @ 130°F , put a lid on it (SS pot) and into the oven. Just leave the oven light on. I have found that 24 hours is sufficient to make it quite sour and is fairly reproduceable it seems. I cannot 100% verify this, but have done it twice now with good results. I just lauter it and toss it into the boil with the rest of my malt from my recipe.
 
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landhoney

landhoney

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zoebisch01 said:
Thanks for the heads up about the yeast landhoney! :)
No problem.
This ones in the bag, I tried fly sparging for the first time today with this one, interesting but slow. I came in a bit above my volume and above my target gravity, hitting 1.040. By far the lowest SG beer I've made, but still above the upper limit for the style, which is 1.036. Oh well. Also weird because I didn't boil the wort, didn't really 'feel' like brewing.
 

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I go this yeast from NB and am planning on brewing this sometime this week. I had a quick question for the sour beer experts...

It says it needs to age for 3-6 months for the full flavor. Does that mean on the entire yeast cake? I am assuming not, but should this be treated like any other ale? I was planning on fermenting until I reach FG and then rack to age. I ask because I want to do the primary fermentation in a bucket then age in a keg. Do you think I will have a problem with this? About when should I look to rack to the keg to age?

Thanks!
 

Iordz

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I think that's a good question. IMO, you could leave it on the yeast because the Brettanomyces are part of the yeast cake. If you rack you could be removing most of the Brett, which could make the beer take longer to develope its flavor. Autolysis can benifit Brett, since they will use the resources left by the dead yeast, just as they do in lambic. I would like to hear other brewer's thoughts on this.
 
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landhoney

landhoney

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Beerrific said:
I go this yeast from NB and am planning on brewing this sometime this week. I had a quick question for the sour beer experts...
It says it needs to age for 3-6 months for the full flavor. Does that mean on the entire yeast cake? I am assuming not, but should this be treated like any other ale? I was planning on fermenting until I reach FG and then rack to age. I ask because I want to do the primary fermentation in a bucket then age in a keg. Do you think I will have a problem with this? About when should I look to rack to the keg to age?
Thanks!
To add to what Iordz said, I'll say that it is my understanding(and my practice) to leave only pLambic style beers on/in the primary on the yeast cake to maximize the amount of 'food' for the bugs over the long haul to get the greatest funk/sour possible. Oud Bruins/Flanders Red/etc I always rack off the yeast cake after a few days - weeks for the long haul. I'd rack to keg a few days after you think primary fermentation has ceased, and then check the pressure once or twice a week. You don't want high pressure to build up because that inhibits yeast flavor.
I think you would be safe leaving it on the yeast cake, but I'm not certain. Maybe email Wyeast, if you want it very sour and possibly more funky(Brett) maybe leaving on the cake is the way to go, but I haven't heard of this beer style being made this way.
P.S. Mines still on the cake.....but because of my busy schedule, not intentionally. :)
 
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Hello, I am new to this forum (and homebrewing on my own), but excited to engage!

I have a carboy of Berliner Weisse, pitched with Wyeast 3191 on the night of Sunday Feb10. I have 4.5-5gal from this 40 gal all grain batch:

[Part of] A ProMash Brewing Session Report:
Brewing Date: Sunday February 10, 2008
Batch Size (Gal): 40.00 Wort Size (Gal): 40.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 50.00
Anticipated OG: 1.034 Plato: 8.4
Anticipated SRM: 2.5
Anticipated IBU: 5.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 30 Minutes

Actual OG: 1.034 Plato: 8.4
Actual FG: 1.012 Plato: 3.1

Alc by Weight: 2.21 by Volume: 2.82 From Measured Gravities.
ADF: 63.6 RDF 52.9 Apparent & Real Degree of
Fermentation.

Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.032 SG 8.1 Plato

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %

Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Extract SRM
54.0 27.00 lbs. Pilsener Germany 54.0 2
34.0 17.00 lbs. Wheat Malt Germany 34.9 2
12.0 6.00 lbs. Sauer(acid) Malt 11.0 2
Extract represented as 20013302f Total Extract.

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
4.00 oz. Crystal Pellet 3.25 4.1 30 min.
4.00 oz. Crystal Pellet 3.25 1.3 5 min.

Extras
Amount Name Type Time
0.84 Oz Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil)

Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse
Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
Sacc 5 45 148 148 Infuse 155 102.00 2.04

Boil Time (min): 30.00
****************************

The above recipe used a Wit yeast, but I used the Wyeast 3191 VSS in my carboy. I hope I provided enough info about the recipe, because I didn't understand parts of that ProMash report that someone else generated for our brewday.


-So my questions are:
When should I rack it off the trub into another carboy? Anything I should do differently for this beer?

What are the pros and cons of doing this at different points? I'd like some sour and funk, but no green apple or butterscotch or esters.

I assume the 3-6 months Wyeast refers to is in the secondary carboy?

It's been about 70-72 degrees in my apartment. Is it that beneficial to make the secondary vessel a bit colder?

Should I be doing anything with a thief and hydrometer for this beer, besides when I do the transfer? What will the density tell me?

Thanks! I will definitely post the results, as well as forward any comments about the recipe to the head brewer. Your input is much appreciated. May the homebrew gods bless you...
 

Beerrific

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Sorry Marco, this is my first sour beer so I can't help but thanks for the bump I meant to respond.

I brewed this on Friday and it has gone from 1.030 to 1.008 in 5 days, fast stuff. It tastes very thin and can't wait for it to sour. I am almost considering racking this to a keg along with some of the yeast, etc. soon as my bucket is not sealing well and attaching a airlock. Any problems with that?
 
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landhoney

landhoney

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MarcoEsquandolas said:
So my questions are:
When should I rack it off the trub into another carboy? Anything I should do differently for this beer?

What are the pros and cons of doing this at different points? I'd like some sour and funk, but no green apple or butterscotch or esters.

I assume the 3-6 months Wyeast refers to is in the secondary carboy?

It's been about 70-72 degrees in my apartment. Is it that beneficial to make the secondary vessel a bit colder?

Should I be doing anything with a thief and hydrometer for this beer, besides when I do the transfer? What will the density tell me?
I think you're doing fine. Rack off a few(5-7) days after primary has finished, when the airlock moves only a couple times a day total. The temp should be fine, Wyeast said "high sixties to low seventies" so your temp seems good. You could chec the gravity before transfering to secondary, it should be in the single digits, in other words below 1.010, or in the 1.000-1.009 range. If its higher than 1.010, maybe leave it in primary longer.
The density/gravity will tell you when the beer is done. In a couple months if the gravity doesn't change for a couple weeks the beer should be done, as long as the gravity is in the mid to low single digits, or 1.006 and below. It should finish 1.003-1.006 or below. If its higher, give it more time. Basically you want a low, stable gravity before bottling. Hope this helps.
 
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landhoney said:
Rack off a few(5-7) days after primary has finished, when the airlock moves only a couple times a day total.
It's been a week and a half, so I suppose I will take a reading and transfer into another carboy tomorrow night. Whats the harm in leaving it on top of this particular trub after the 7 days since pitching? I don't want to sacrifice sour/funk or mouthfeel/thickness for visual clarity.

Where are the Lacto and Brett right now, in regards to concentration (suspended/settled), as well as lifespan ? It's my understanding that the Brett will get going once the other 2 yeasts are pretty much dormant/dead?

Thanks!
 

Beerrific

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I e-mailed Wyeast with some questions on this blend, I thought I would share their response:

I ran a test brew with the 3191 recently. I fermneted in the primary
for 4 weeks. At week 1 pH was 3.5. Week 2 3.1 and by week 4 the beer
was done fermenting and bright. I bottled it at the end of week 4. I
will probabaly let the bottles prime at 70oF for 2 weeks and then drink
some, but let a few condition at around 60 for a few months to develop
the Brettanomyces character.

Should I get to the point... If you plan on long term conditioning in a
craroy, I would rack it after about 7 days and condition at cooler temps
in the secondary. I think the long term conditioning can also be done
in bottles. The acid production should be 95% done by this point.

If you rack to a secondary, don't worry about carring over a lof of
yeats. T 7 days, there will be plenty left in suspension.

Let me know if you have other questions.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories
(541) 354-1335
So I think I am check the pH tomorrow. The taste I had last night did not taste sour at all so I am kind of confused.
 
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landhoney

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MarcoEsquandolas said:
It's been a week and a half, so I suppose I will take a reading and transfer into another carboy tomorrow night. Whats the harm in leaving it on top of this particular trub after the 7 days since pitching? I don't want to sacrifice sour/funk or mouthfeel/thickness for visual clarity.
Where are the Lacto and Brett right now, in regards to concentration (suspended/settled), as well as lifespan ? It's my understanding that the Brett will get going once the other 2 yeasts are pretty much dormant/dead?
Thanks!
You can leave it in primary longer, as Jess's response to Beerrific indicates, mine is still in primary, and it has been at least 4 weeks I believe. I am not sure where the Brett and Lacto are in the mix, but they both need some time to finish off everything in the beer. BTW, Brett is a yeast while Lacto is a bacteria. Both will ferment things 'regular' yeast cannot.

Thanks for the info Beerrific.
 
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Thats funny, Beerrific; I also emailed Wyeast before I saw your post and got a very similar response. He added:

I know our description says to age for 3-6 months, but I think this is only really necessary to develop the Brett character of the beer and not necessarliy to increase acidity.

We designed the blend to produce a sour beer in a fairly short amount of time. The development of the Brett character can't really be rushed though.

One note: Be sure to keep IBUs on the brews with 3191 under 10 IBUs.
Anything over will inhibit the Lactobacillus and your beer will not sour.​
 
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I just took a hydrometer reading. Is it possible that the specific gravity was less than 1? It seemed to be 0.990 at room temp.

It didn't taste all that sour but I think I could sense the lacto and brett.

Should I bottle?

Thanks!

When I do bottle, should anything be different about bottling this particular brew? I'm thinking use slightly less priming sugar so the brett doesn't cause a "bottle bomb," and since BerlinerWeisses are typically a little less carbonated...?
 
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landhoney

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MarcoEsquandolas said:
I just took a hydrometer reading. Is it possible that the specific gravity was less than 1? It seemed to be 0.990 at room temp.
It didn't taste all that sour but I think I could sense the lacto and brett.
Should I bottle?
Thanks!
When I do bottle, should anything be different about bottling this particular brew? I'm thinking use slightly less priming sugar so the brett doesn't cause a "bottle bomb," and since BerlinerWeisses are typically a little less carbonated...?
It is possible to be below 1.000, but fairly rare. Check some room temp water and make sure the hydrometer is correct. Also, because you're at such a low FG(not possible to get too much lower I think) you don't need to worry about bottle bombs. Yeast or Brett or whatever would fully ferment bottling sugar, so as long as you use the 'correct' amount of sugar you should be fine. You get bottle bombs with Brett when you bottle too soon at too high a FG, you think the beer is done at 1.008 and bottle but its not. The 'bombs' occur from the extra fermentables(for Brett) left in the beer, not in the priming sugar. Lastly, its my experience that BW's are typically more/highly carbonated, not less. But of course, do whatever you wish. At below 1.000 I'd say you are safe to bottle, as long as that number is correct.
 
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