Worth the investment..?

[CDGoin]

Thanks for all the great input.. I will address most of them.

As a Kit was definitely on the radar.. (For sale at other retailers that just Brew Stores), but also separately as just a fermenter and LBHS..

As for targeting noobs with money.. As noted many here are not target audience as they are sit in their ways, etc..

So that's where a premium kit comes in if sold not at LHBS. It would include items I normally wouldn't in a LBHS version ( Hydrometer, Directions, capper, sampling tube, funnel, vent, maybe a 5 Gal Brewers' Best kit, etc.. etc.. ) for say $199, that's about what the larger more complete kits go for.

Being sit in your ways though is kind of what started this. I started with the Vintage Mr Beer and I am now am experienced, but I find I still like it better than any other option on the market currently for my primary. I have been hunting on eBay, and other places to buy a second or third. This is what got me on the tangent to make them, as they aren't commercially available.

So, I am pretty positive those that would start on my fermenter would want to buy extras as well as they get better in the hobby. They wouldn't want to deal with a Carboy style fermenter and a bucket wouldn't work for them. I personally would never use a Bucket for more than a secondary. I like to see how things are going, and to do that it needs to be clear, with a bucket you have to keep opening and exposing the beer. For long term storage, lagering, etc... I actually prefer the Deep Wood Brew 7 Gallon Stainless Steel Caverns.

As for size.. the wonderful thing about the size is that it will fit in a fridge as I considered that was well. Its 12W x 14L x 18T and can ferment up to 25L without a problem. I have also thought of including a vent built into the cap so it doesn't stick up and get in the way while in the fridge too. Something as simple as the hole in the cap be as large as the Outside top dimension of a regular 3 piece vent so it can it in the cap not poke up from it, seal at the top with the 1/4" fruit fly cap sticking out for them top. I don't think that would be a problem as most beers wouldn't get that high with the Krausen. I could also have an adapter for the lid to use standard vents in the standard configuration. Or simply sell the Short Vent cap as an option.

As for spouts.. it could come with a block off for those without spouts. But everyone's sanitation concern over them I feel is seriously, over blown. I use them on everything.. I can get quick samples, bottling is easier, etc.. they are not hard to clean.. just soak in some Sanitizer for a few seconds. I find before I use it to rack (after using it to get samples) Is to take a rag soaked in iodine cleaner, and run it up the nozzle.. NEVER had an infection. I even have them on my brew kettles. That said, if you really don't want to use it, a blank could easily be added to the kit.

The clear bucket is a great idea.. But getting plastic that thick that is see through I don't think will be as easy or cheap as it sounds. But it would save development and such, and a regular bucket top could be used. So its something to think about.

 

[CDGoin]

Do you need a 3D print? $30k for that sounds excessive. The injection mold could be pricey, but 30k sounds very high too. Not sure what's involved. You would need to manufacture and sell 3-5k bottles to break even on that investment alone.

Yep.. seemed high to me too, but I haven't gotten all the quotes in yet.. and could just be asking the wrong people. But a thing I should also mention, is I know my cost will be a little more than most. As I will produce in the US, for something like this it simply makes no sense to transport all that air from China and I rather have them made in the US anyway.

Here comes the question:
Given the choices in the below $50 price range, would I buy yours or something else?

I hate to spend $30+ on a plastic "bottle" that is hard to clean and easily scratched (BB). For $15 or less I can get a simple 6 1/2 gal bucket with lid. If scratched it will be reused as a grain container or rinsing bucket for years to come. It will outlive me eventually. Or should I get your cube?

I'm the wrong person to ask.. I say the cube..

 

[CDGoin]

Interesting.. just saw this:

http://www.brewgadgets.com/p-1385-coppers-diy-beer-kit.aspx

Overall looks like a combination of my kits and a clear bucket.. Interestingly enough no place for a vent.. ? Not sure that would work well. But could always drill for one.

Although looked on line and their old versions seem to have a vent, but aren't as see through..

That said, on their website it's $199, on LBHS online webpage its $119.99 and in both cases can not buy just the fermenter.. So not an option for me. If I am spending that much I will go with another cavern. Seems they try to make more money selling pre-packaged extract kits than their fermenter kits.

 

[MalFet]

The "intro to brewing" kits are still a relatively wide open field, and I suspect there are many solid business opportunities here. The Brooklyn Brew Shop people, for example, seem to have done very well.

The important point here, though, is that you will succeed or fail in this domain based on your marketing skills, not your product design skills. It's great to have a smart design for your included fermentor, but that's neither what people will see nor what will persuade them to buy. Instead, you need to send the message, "Your boyfriend is smart enough to brew beer with this kit, and it will make a great Christmas present."

 

[CDGoin]

Very true.. and I was thinking a joint venture with one of the larger names in the business may work too once I get the prototype made.

 

[MalFet]

Very true.. and I was thinking a joint venture with one of the larger names in the business may work too once I get the prototype made.

So now the cynical question: if one of the larger names decides to market a square clear fermentor with handles and a spigot, why do they need you?

 

[broadbill]

I'm the wrong person to ask.. I say the cube..

Yeah, but why? This is the 30K question you will need an answer to...

Its clear...yeah, so are better bottles or carboys. I can get a better bottle if I want clear.

Its easy to clean...yeah, then I'll get a bucket. I'll buy a bucket for easy cleaning.

So your target demographic are the people that fall in the Venn diagram that want BOTH clear and easy to clean. It would appear that this population of homebrewers is fairly small, based on the response here. Regardless, you need to know what/who this population is to be able to make a decision if this product is going to fly.

I think the majority of us fall into one camp or another, but rarely both. This is my impression from what I've seen on the bazillion fermenter threads on this forum.

 

[CDGoin]

So now the cynical question: if one of the larger names decides to market a square clear fermentor with handles and a spigot, why do they need you?

Nope.. they wouldn't and I would buy the product and fold up this endeavor

This whole thing is as much about turning hobby into potentionally money making product, as it is getting one or two for myself.

 

[amandabab]

Interesting.. just saw this:

http://www.brewgadgets.com/p-1385-coppers-diy-beer-kit.aspx

Overall looks like a combination of my kits and a clear bucket.. Interestingly enough no place for a vent.. ? Not sure that would work well. But could always drill for one.

.

actually Coopers design works very well.

This is also the product your competing with and have to pull customers away from.

also saying carboys and BBs need stoppers doesn't help sell your product. people that use those systems have way too many stoppers already and adding another fermentor is simply buying another fermentor.You need to convinse people the sink cube is better than the Coopers. Its a first purchase gateway type unit.

 

[rustym]

I think you need to have one finished as you describe and show it in use. The Speidels took off like crazy to the point that they are always on backorder so there is a market for something like this. Once people see it, they could easily change their mind. Remember also that most of us here have our equipment and get used to what we use. But new guy coming into this hobby would probably jump on them. Just my $0.02 worth. Go for it!

 

[h4mmy86]

Wouldn't fit in my fridge

 

[techbrewie]

You have to look at consumer mentality. Say it had the same volume as a 6 gallon better bottle priced at $30. even if you priced yours at $30, you need to ask yourself why a consumer would purchase your product over the one they know, have used and trust. Many people will wonder why they need an upgrade when what they have works perfectly fine. Function is a selling point, but your consumer will need more incentive to try something new. Modern consumers always consider initial benefits before long term ones. Your long term benefit is the superior product, your short term needs to be something like a lower price point, more variety, or in general something the competition cant offer.

Better Bottle had this exact problem when breaking into the carboy market, so essentially you will have to do what they did.

-Provide a lower price point.
-Establish Distribution channels.
-Establish immediate benefit to its competitor (lighter to ship, unbreakable etc.)
-Market the hell out of your product, Advertisements and sales through participating HBS.
-Get home brew stores and Homebrew forums to back your product. 99% of people get their equipment recommendations either from the interweb or their LBHS.

If you think you have a solid design, but you don't want to start a business with it I would suggest a kick starter, patent your product, then try to sell it to a company that is established in the market for a % of the profit.

my 2 cents.

 

[CDGoin]

Thanks everyone for the great advice.. I think at this point it comes down to prototype cost, and if the investors will get on it.

Because of this I found two other styles I wasn't aware of before I started.. which I think are my main competition. The Speidel and the Coopers. They both also tell me the price range is right. Both seem to work from different angles though.. seems the Speidel caters to the hobbyist, the Coopers to the novice.

So a lot comes down to presentation and marketing, which is something I was already considering. The main thing I needed to know was if the market is there. I think it is.. although the market from what I can read here would be at first geared more towards those new to the hobby, and then maybe the old carboy diehards and BB people will see the light after it becomes a viable product and garners more acceptance.

Again, thanks for all the input.. it has been great. I owe you guys a lot of pennies it would seem

 

[Velliety]

I have that exact same vintage Mr. Beer fermenter, and I've been searching all over the place for a suitable replacement! Mine's still in decent shape but I brew a lot and I know it won't last forever. In fact, when I saw the photo in the OP, I was getting ready to message you and ask you if you'd sell it - then I read the post.

I have several other fermenters, including the Spiedel, but they all fall short of what I want:

BB - neck too narrow to dry hop or oak easily, also too tall for my space
Glass carboy - too heavy and too scary, also see above
Bucket - not clear, and also as a girl, I tend to break my nails opening the lid
Spiedel - close, but still not clear

I'd be a buyer at the $59 price point, but it appears that I am solidly in the minority. My guess is that unless you've had one of these, it's hard to justify the cost for all the little things that are awesome about it.

I'd look at the Kickstarter seriously.

Edit: I would recommend some knurls or fingers on the lid - when the lid/hands are wet, it's hard to open.

 

[CDGoin]

I have that exact same vintage Mr. Beer fermenter, and I've been searching all over the place for a suitable replacement! Mine's still in decent shape but I brew a lot and I know it won't last forever. In fact, when I saw the photo in the OP, I was getting ready to message you and ask you if you'd sell it - then I read the post.

I guess, you dont get "it" unless you got one

You, I and three others I have talked to via PM own a vintage Mr Beer and ALL of us want another and have not found an adequte substitute.

I will say the SS Caverns are as close as I have found.. With exception of the see thru angle. So they are my go to secondary.

Wish me luck..

 

[mattd2]

...I will say the SS Caverns are as close as I have found.. With exception of the see thru angle. So they are my go to secondary.
...

What are these SS caverns you keep referring to?

 

[bottlebomber]

What are these SS caverns you keep referring to?

http://www.dwbrewproducts.com/shop/product_info.php/gal-stainless-steel-carboy-p-59

 

[blueseamonkey]

Here in the Philippines there is a severe lack of suitable fermentation vessels - food grade buckets are very hard to find and there's not a LHBS in the country. BUT I have seen something VERY similar to your idea, its essentially a PET transparent blue water dispenser with a spigot and a large opening at the top. Round and square types are available, some have handles on the side. My only concern with these was the volume was only 5 US gallons - which unless I scale recipes down to 4 gallons makes them not particularly suitable as a primary.

They are available for only 200PhP - about 5 US dollars retail. I initially rejected them for a bucket instead because of the volume issue, but I am having to replace my fermentor now after an infection and I think I will choose one of these water jugs this time.

Space for an extra gallon or 2 would be nice, (7 US gallons would be better than 6 because then you can brew British 5 gallon recipes without scaling) plus a better quality spigot (I'll be swapping the original one out) but not nice enough to justify paying 34 dollars more.

I found a couple of pictures from a local vendor - so you can get the general idea. The 2 containers at the top left of the 1st picture are the items I am talking about, these versions have no handles but others I have seen do have them.

 

[CDGoin]

Wow.. thanks a lot for the lead. Looks if they do custom fabrication too.. so who knows.

Its REALLY damn close to my idea.. Just needs an increase in volume. and a hole in the top.

BTW it "says" 5 gallons.. but is it 5 gall on to the top or to the "fill line". Also often I find these things listed as 5 gallon and then tend to be 20L. Which is a quarter gallon more, give head space for the cap, and it should be just enough for a 5 gallon batch. That said, it is best for the fermenter to be 30L or so to allow for a batch that goes large, or a big beer with a lot of krausen.

 

[CDGoin]

http://www.dwbrewproducts.com/shop/product_info.php/gal-stainless-steel-carboy-p-59

Beat me too it.. there is also this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/reviews/deep-wood-brew-7-gallon-ss-carboy-cavern.html

I will say as much as I promote thier product, its only because I absolutely love it. I have no relationship with the company outside of homebrewtalk.com where I found out about them. I just believe in supporting companies that support my hobby.

Probably comes from my car hobby side and my own business (www.ez2wire.com a hot rod wiring reseller). So its the whole do unto others as you would have them do unto you thing

I firmly believe even if I did get my fermenter made, I would use the Caverns for secondary and long term storage due to durability, and opaqueness.

 

[blueseamonkey]

Wow.. thanks a lot for the lead. Looks if they do custom fabrication too.. so who knows.

Its REALLY damn close to my idea.. Just needs an increase in volume. and a hole in the top.

BTW it "says" 5 gallons.. but is it 5 gall on to the top or to the "fill line". Also often I find these things listed as 5 gallon and then tend to be 20L. Which is a quarter gallon more, give head space for the cap, and it should be just enough for a 5 gallon batch. That said, it is best for the fermenter to be 30L or so to allow for a batch that goes large, or a big beer with a lot of krausen.

Not a problem on the lead. They probably hold 5 US gallons with a little bit of head space - if they are the same as the rectangular opaque HDPE ones shown at the front of the first pic (I use one of those as a bottling bucket) I recently had quite a bit of overflow racking a 22-23 L batch over from the primary so my guess would be 20L to the very top. There is a bit of headspace in the cap but not a lot.

Having given these a close examination last time I went fermenter shopping I would suggest that to sell them as mid-range fermenters at the USD $35-40 price point you would probably want to get them made with the extra 2 gallons of volume; a better gasket on the cap; a hole for the airlock and a better spigot. Possibly slightly thicker plastic too. If you're seriously interested I can check the inside surfaces as well next time to see how smooth and easy to clean they are - as you can see from the pics they are ridged for extra strength - using thicker plastic might allow you to request a smooth sided vessel. To sell them as a budget fermenter/bottling bucket ($5-10) you'd probably find the extra volume and the hole in the top would be enough.

They do fit quite well in a standard mid-sized fridge, they are very similar shape to a carboy but slightly shorter.

If you need a contact person here in Manila, or want some close up pics, further comments etc, let me know fairly soon as I'm moving out of the city in a couple of months time.

 

[sikkingj]

This is my fermentor:

Made of polycarbonite plastic.. tough as nails and light as a feather. Completely see thru for all your yeast voyeuristic needs.

They also clean REAL easy.. no brushes needed, just a cotton rag and some iodine.

I have been considering reproducing something similar that would fit perfectly in a kitchen sink. It would have handles built in amoungst other additional changes and features.

Does anyone think there would be a market against carboys, better bottles, buckets and the like..? A a retail of say $59.99 (Would include the spout, vent, top and bottle)

Getting some investors together, and contemplating a kickstart program.

All I can say is that I started my brewing hobby with one, and have looked for a second for a while. They haven't been easy to find and those that I have talked to that have had one wouldn't give it up, just as I wouldn't give up mine.

So.. Whats everyone think.. worth the pursuit..? If not at $59.99 what do you think a good price point would be to have them flying off the shelves ?

I like the idea, but I'm always stressed for space, is there any way you could get these primaries to stack? It a question as I'm not sure how the blow- tubes would work.

-John

 

[donkeybigbird]

I really like your concept. I consider myself to be in the target demo for something like this. I am 7 brews into my new hobby, and have enough disposable income to where the price point doesn't worry me. I started with a Midwest kit, have added two more buckets, bought all the toys from amazon, HBF.com, my LHBS; less than $1000 invested so far. I am heading towards AG. I have not yet bought any BB or glass carboys, and not willing to invest in the caverns (I have to acquire kegging equip first). I have been able to brew what I want so far with what I have, but am on the cusp of upgrading (just) my fermenters.

I would pull out my wallet and order right now based on a single selling point: the capability to lager in my existing refrigerator. I could buy a second fridge but don't want to yet. The drain valve isn't very compelling to me: I have auto siphon, racking cane and tubing already, and I am going to have to sanitize SOMETHING regardless of whether I rack or drain. I wouldn't need the option and would prefer not to pay for it.

From a product usability standpoint I see your concept as sound. From the target consumer point of view (versus the know-it-all schmucks, holding on to their pee-pees and saying "look what I can do") it sounds like you are onto something viable. The best marketing in the world is worthless without good design (in most cases).

I suspect that the bulk of the responses you have received are not representative of the body of (silent) opinion.

 

[KVANTAN]

I think the worst case scenario is that you cover your costs, learn a whole lot and can repeat the process for another idea with an existing customer base, and tweak on this one in the future. You will also learn a lot about the merciless world of business that they dont teach you in school and probably have some fun. So go for it.

 

[CDGoin]

I like the idea, but I'm always stressed for space, is there any way you could get these primaries to stack? It a question as I'm not sure how the blow- tubes would work.

-John

The vents are the problems in getting anything like this to stack.
Vent would have to come out the side. Something I don't think any standard vent could do easily. Although I do have a idea on how..

Also stacking with these wouldn't be good due to weight ( 5 gal x 8 lbs = 40lbs of liquid and add 5 lbs for trub).

I was trying to stack two into my lager fridge.. and the metal rack in the fridge couldn't take the weight on its own.

A full fermenter is heavier that you think.

That said buckets are stackable and built for it.. (Since they are truly just repurposed paint buckets after all). I think if you drilled a hole in the side and installed this:

with a 1/2"x2" nipple and an O-ring around a vent you could stack buckets. and keep the vent out of the way.

 

[blueseamonkey]

Stackable while empty - easy. Stackable while full of fermenting beer - much more tricky and probably beyond the capabilities of a transparent PET container.

 

[jCOSbrew]

I would compare your features and price point to the Speidel plastic fermenters.
Your typical beginner brewer or winemaker is not going to use this premium product, they will use a bucket or regular carboy. All the major online homebrew shops offer basic equipment kit (bucket) w/ a beer recipe for about $100.