Worth the investment..?

[IslandLizard]

I think you have a compelling argument and possibly a good product.

Now breaking into an existing market and occupying a sizeable share in it requires careful marketing research, prototyping, piloting, advertising, distribution, plugging, and pricing. On top of that everyone in that process wants to make money.

I don't possess any BB or other PET fermentors, and admit to know very little about this whole industry. Yet, I dare to say that a (plastic) BB carboy costs $1 to fabricate and the remainder of its retail price goes to getting the product to the consumer, including "perceived value" markup, which maybe very substantial, since it's only a plastic bottle after all. A PET container is not unlike the soda and water bottles that come free with their content and get discarded or recycled after use.

That said, I'm sure not the only who looked at the left-over PET containers after the nuts were consumed and wondered "what can I do with this, it is too nice to throw out."

 

[IslandLizard]

...Almost like I should delete this thread, reformat with all that was clarified here and start over

Isn't the thread meant to do some serious brainstorming and viability testing in a small dedicated community? Throwing the thread out is like censoring the process. Please don't.

You could add a recap instead, even to your OP. Or a link.

 

[CDGoin]

Your right and thats actually a great idea..

Because I think I need to clear up the OP.. because a lot wasn't clear I guess.

Like this is the overall design of what I am thinking..

Note: handle and spout locations.

I am working on a finished 3D model that would be even better for people to understand.

I think I started off on the wrong foot with a picture of the Mr Beer kit, so many assumed it was a 3 Gal thing or something like that. So I think editing the OP would be a good place to start.

As for costs.. currently two quotes I have are around $30K each for 3D printed prototype and the Injection mold. I have even floated the idea, design and such to a couple of LBHS and they all said they would carry it. But as you mentioned, the costs of getting it to every store would be such I would have to sell nationally to get the volume I would need, that costs more than probably even the molds or prototype, so selling them via Amazon would be an option, but not sure the volume would be there to justify it.

It would have to be something a lot of people would want, or at least stores. I can see a "kit" being sold at non-LBHS retailers during the holiday season and such. Again though that requires a lot in marketing and promotion.

Now I think if the original Mr Beer molds could be used then that would make this a no brainer.

Unfortunately the people that made the one I use now are no longer around (that I could find) and the people that run Mr Beer now are different than the ones that ran it then or at least that has been my experience when I called to try to find out any info on the vintage one.

 

[stratslinger]

To be perfectly honest, this seems to marry the benefits of a bucket (ease and speed of cleaning) with those of a better bottle (transparent fermenter that's lighter than a glass carboy).

I'm among the many folks who are highly suspicious of fermenters that include spigots - so BB's equipped with such, or your device, wouldn't be a consideration for me. Too much of a vector for infection, too easy to pull trub if you've got an especially thick yeast cake, just to name a couple of concerns.

As to a couple of your initial benefits over better bottles - I've never taken a brush to mine, and never had an issue. Granted, I've never been able to empty it, clean it, and immediately re-use it, but rarely has that ever been a problem for me. Maybe I'm not your target market...

 

[IslandLizard]

Your OP is fine as it sets the scenario. Your new design is based on that model.

There are big differences. No-one ever bought a Mr. Beer bottle. They came with the kit. The kit held (and still holds) the promise to make your own beer.

You are trying to sell an improved fermentor, directly competing with BB.

Do you need a 3D print? $30k for that sounds excessive. The injection mold could be pricey, but 30k sounds very high too. Not sure what's involved. You would need to manufacture and sell 3-5k bottles to break even on that investment alone.

I agree with the spigot being an acquired taste and may be best implemented as an option. Good sanitation is needed for those who use them, which is easy with the easy access through the wide top opening. Like stratslinger said, a bucket and clear fermentor in one.

I'm in the market to obtain some new fermentors in the near future. I'm using glass carboys now and possibly want to steer away from them for use as primaries.

Here comes the question:
Given the choices in the below $50 price range, would I buy yours or something else?

I hate to spend $30+ on a plastic "bottle" that is hard to clean and easily scratched (BB). For $15 or less I can get a simple 6 1/2 gal bucket with lid. If scratched it will be reused as a grain container or rinsing bucket for years to come. It will outlive me eventually. Or should I get your cube?

 

[orlgamecock]

You're trying to hard and getting way to complex with it. You have solutions for both the problems that you are trying to fix (clear plastic = PET) and easy to clean = bucket. Why not get out of this idea of thinking you have to reinvent the wheel and just make a clear bucket! Incredibly cheap, easy to clean, and I am sure you can get the initial manufacturing costs way down.

You probably could have the cost down to around 20$, and have something that is, easy to store multiples of (stacking buckets together kicks ass), doesn't have funky geometry, so manufacturing costs would be cheaper. Make them wider to take height away from it if you are worrying about the height. Or include a sink hose attachment in one for say a 25$ package to get people buying them.

I will take 10% of your profits for my amazing idea :-D

 

[Couchy]

I think you are on to a good idea but aiming too low.

You have highlighted benefits over other fermenters, so charge more for those features - ask $79 for it. Afterall its a 'premium' product.

People on this forum are not your target market segment. They know too much and many are set in their ways. You should pitch this product at the affluent new guy who has the money to spend and wants to get into HB as a hobby.

At the end of the day it is how you market the product that will decide your success. Pitch this as a premium fermentor and highlight the benefits over alternatives on the packaging. Design the packaging well (ie. logo, fonts, artwork). Pick a good name for the product and trademark it to protect your IP.

Think of offering the product as part starter set up for the new brewer with basic ingredients for a first brew.

Make sure you include well-crafted instructions for use. Don't stuff this up - good instructions can sell a product. Think of a DVD to include as well, or put a video up on You-Tube. Be professional about it, don't put up some some crappy video that looks unprofessional and makes your product and you look bad. Slick is the word.

And think about getting it sold in places other than LHBS eg. hardware stores, shopping malls (rent a stand and do demos). Advertise in low cost but targeted local publications (gun/car/bike club mags etc). And don't forget the ladies either - if they don't buy for themselves they do buy such things for hubby, boyfriend etc. (bless their hearts)

Good luck. Go for it.

 

[bottlebomber]

People on this forum are not your target market segment. They know too much and many are set in their ways. You should pitch this product at the affluent new guy who has the money to spend and wants to get into HB as a hobby.

So he should target ignorant noobs with money? In that case, why not make it $179? It is a premium product, after all.

 

[Cdburkhart]

I like the wide mouth and spout. But instead of sizing it for a sink, why not make two pieces? One for the chamber, and have a coiled tubing sleeve for cooling the wort?

 

[h4mmy86]

What I like about this is that it's short and has the potential of fitting into my fridge.

I live in a small apartment and have no way of lagering and I hate it.

IMO it might be beneficial to make it a little shorter and fatter, and put more emphasis on fitting it a household refrigerator.

...but that's just my .02

 

[CDGoin]

Thanks for all the great input.. I will address most of them.

As a Kit was definitely on the radar.. (For sale at other retailers that just Brew Stores), but also separately as just a fermenter and LBHS..

As for targeting noobs with money.. As noted many here are not target audience as they are sit in their ways, etc..

So that's where a premium kit comes in if sold not at LHBS. It would include items I normally wouldn't in a LBHS version ( Hydrometer, Directions, capper, sampling tube, funnel, vent, maybe a 5 Gal Brewers' Best kit, etc.. etc.. ) for say $199, that's about what the larger more complete kits go for.

Being sit in your ways though is kind of what started this. I started with the Vintage Mr Beer and I am now am experienced, but I find I still like it better than any other option on the market currently for my primary. I have been hunting on eBay, and other places to buy a second or third. This is what got me on the tangent to make them, as they aren't commercially available.

So, I am pretty positive those that would start on my fermenter would want to buy extras as well as they get better in the hobby. They wouldn't want to deal with a Carboy style fermenter and a bucket wouldn't work for them. I personally would never use a Bucket for more than a secondary. I like to see how things are going, and to do that it needs to be clear, with a bucket you have to keep opening and exposing the beer. For long term storage, lagering, etc... I actually prefer the Deep Wood Brew 7 Gallon Stainless Steel Caverns.

As for size.. the wonderful thing about the size is that it will fit in a fridge as I considered that was well. Its 12W x 14L x 18T and can ferment up to 25L without a problem. I have also thought of including a vent built into the cap so it doesn't stick up and get in the way while in the fridge too. Something as simple as the hole in the cap be as large as the Outside top dimension of a regular 3 piece vent so it can it in the cap not poke up from it, seal at the top with the 1/4" fruit fly cap sticking out for them top. I don't think that would be a problem as most beers wouldn't get that high with the Krausen. I could also have an adapter for the lid to use standard vents in the standard configuration. Or simply sell the Short Vent cap as an option.

As for spouts.. it could come with a block off for those without spouts. But everyone's sanitation concern over them I feel is seriously, over blown. I use them on everything.. I can get quick samples, bottling is easier, etc.. they are not hard to clean.. just soak in some Sanitizer for a few seconds. I find before I use it to rack (after using it to get samples) Is to take a rag soaked in iodine cleaner, and run it up the nozzle.. NEVER had an infection. I even have them on my brew kettles. That said, if you really don't want to use it, a blank could easily be added to the kit.

The clear bucket is a great idea.. But getting plastic that thick that is see through I don't think will be as easy or cheap as it sounds. But it would save development and such, and a regular bucket top could be used. So its something to think about.

 

[CDGoin]

Do you need a 3D print? $30k for that sounds excessive. The injection mold could be pricey, but 30k sounds very high too. Not sure what's involved. You would need to manufacture and sell 3-5k bottles to break even on that investment alone.

Yep.. seemed high to me too, but I haven't gotten all the quotes in yet.. and could just be asking the wrong people. But a thing I should also mention, is I know my cost will be a little more than most. As I will produce in the US, for something like this it simply makes no sense to transport all that air from China and I rather have them made in the US anyway.

Here comes the question:
Given the choices in the below $50 price range, would I buy yours or something else?

I hate to spend $30+ on a plastic "bottle" that is hard to clean and easily scratched (BB). For $15 or less I can get a simple 6 1/2 gal bucket with lid. If scratched it will be reused as a grain container or rinsing bucket for years to come. It will outlive me eventually. Or should I get your cube?

I'm the wrong person to ask.. I say the cube..

 

[CDGoin]

Interesting.. just saw this:

http://www.brewgadgets.com/p-1385-coppers-diy-beer-kit.aspx

Overall looks like a combination of my kits and a clear bucket.. Interestingly enough no place for a vent.. ? Not sure that would work well. But could always drill for one.

Although looked on line and their old versions seem to have a vent, but aren't as see through..

That said, on their website it's $199, on LBHS online webpage its $119.99 and in both cases can not buy just the fermenter.. So not an option for me. If I am spending that much I will go with another cavern. Seems they try to make more money selling pre-packaged extract kits than their fermenter kits.

 

[MalFet]

The "intro to brewing" kits are still a relatively wide open field, and I suspect there are many solid business opportunities here. The Brooklyn Brew Shop people, for example, seem to have done very well.

The important point here, though, is that you will succeed or fail in this domain based on your marketing skills, not your product design skills. It's great to have a smart design for your included fermentor, but that's neither what people will see nor what will persuade them to buy. Instead, you need to send the message, "Your boyfriend is smart enough to brew beer with this kit, and it will make a great Christmas present."

 

[CDGoin]

Very true.. and I was thinking a joint venture with one of the larger names in the business may work too once I get the prototype made.

 

[MalFet]

Very true.. and I was thinking a joint venture with one of the larger names in the business may work too once I get the prototype made.

So now the cynical question: if one of the larger names decides to market a square clear fermentor with handles and a spigot, why do they need you?

 

[broadbill]

I'm the wrong person to ask.. I say the cube..

Yeah, but why? This is the 30K question you will need an answer to...

Its clear...yeah, so are better bottles or carboys. I can get a better bottle if I want clear.

Its easy to clean...yeah, then I'll get a bucket. I'll buy a bucket for easy cleaning.

So your target demographic are the people that fall in the Venn diagram that want BOTH clear and easy to clean. It would appear that this population of homebrewers is fairly small, based on the response here. Regardless, you need to know what/who this population is to be able to make a decision if this product is going to fly.

I think the majority of us fall into one camp or another, but rarely both. This is my impression from what I've seen on the bazillion fermenter threads on this forum.

 

[CDGoin]

So now the cynical question: if one of the larger names decides to market a square clear fermentor with handles and a spigot, why do they need you?

Nope.. they wouldn't and I would buy the product and fold up this endeavor

This whole thing is as much about turning hobby into potentionally money making product, as it is getting one or two for myself.

 

[amandabab]

Interesting.. just saw this:

http://www.brewgadgets.com/p-1385-coppers-diy-beer-kit.aspx

Overall looks like a combination of my kits and a clear bucket.. Interestingly enough no place for a vent.. ? Not sure that would work well. But could always drill for one.

.

actually Coopers design works very well.

This is also the product your competing with and have to pull customers away from.

also saying carboys and BBs need stoppers doesn't help sell your product. people that use those systems have way too many stoppers already and adding another fermentor is simply buying another fermentor.You need to convinse people the sink cube is better than the Coopers. Its a first purchase gateway type unit.

 

[rustym]

I think you need to have one finished as you describe and show it in use. The Speidels took off like crazy to the point that they are always on backorder so there is a market for something like this. Once people see it, they could easily change their mind. Remember also that most of us here have our equipment and get used to what we use. But new guy coming into this hobby would probably jump on them. Just my $0.02 worth. Go for it!

 

[h4mmy86]

Wouldn't fit in my fridge

 

[techbrewie]

You have to look at consumer mentality. Say it had the same volume as a 6 gallon better bottle priced at $30. even if you priced yours at $30, you need to ask yourself why a consumer would purchase your product over the one they know, have used and trust. Many people will wonder why they need an upgrade when what they have works perfectly fine. Function is a selling point, but your consumer will need more incentive to try something new. Modern consumers always consider initial benefits before long term ones. Your long term benefit is the superior product, your short term needs to be something like a lower price point, more variety, or in general something the competition cant offer.

Better Bottle had this exact problem when breaking into the carboy market, so essentially you will have to do what they did.

-Provide a lower price point.
-Establish Distribution channels.
-Establish immediate benefit to its competitor (lighter to ship, unbreakable etc.)
-Market the hell out of your product, Advertisements and sales through participating HBS.
-Get home brew stores and Homebrew forums to back your product. 99% of people get their equipment recommendations either from the interweb or their LBHS.

If you think you have a solid design, but you don't want to start a business with it I would suggest a kick starter, patent your product, then try to sell it to a company that is established in the market for a % of the profit.

my 2 cents.

 

[CDGoin]

Thanks everyone for the great advice.. I think at this point it comes down to prototype cost, and if the investors will get on it.

Because of this I found two other styles I wasn't aware of before I started.. which I think are my main competition. The Speidel and the Coopers. They both also tell me the price range is right. Both seem to work from different angles though.. seems the Speidel caters to the hobbyist, the Coopers to the novice.

So a lot comes down to presentation and marketing, which is something I was already considering. The main thing I needed to know was if the market is there. I think it is.. although the market from what I can read here would be at first geared more towards those new to the hobby, and then maybe the old carboy diehards and BB people will see the light after it becomes a viable product and garners more acceptance.

Again, thanks for all the input.. it has been great. I owe you guys a lot of pennies it would seem

 

[Velliety]

I have that exact same vintage Mr. Beer fermenter, and I've been searching all over the place for a suitable replacement! Mine's still in decent shape but I brew a lot and I know it won't last forever. In fact, when I saw the photo in the OP, I was getting ready to message you and ask you if you'd sell it - then I read the post.

I have several other fermenters, including the Spiedel, but they all fall short of what I want:

BB - neck too narrow to dry hop or oak easily, also too tall for my space
Glass carboy - too heavy and too scary, also see above
Bucket - not clear, and also as a girl, I tend to break my nails opening the lid
Spiedel - close, but still not clear

I'd be a buyer at the $59 price point, but it appears that I am solidly in the minority. My guess is that unless you've had one of these, it's hard to justify the cost for all the little things that are awesome about it.

I'd look at the Kickstarter seriously.

Edit: I would recommend some knurls or fingers on the lid - when the lid/hands are wet, it's hard to open.

 

[CDGoin]

I have that exact same vintage Mr. Beer fermenter, and I've been searching all over the place for a suitable replacement! Mine's still in decent shape but I brew a lot and I know it won't last forever. In fact, when I saw the photo in the OP, I was getting ready to message you and ask you if you'd sell it - then I read the post.

I guess, you dont get "it" unless you got one

You, I and three others I have talked to via PM own a vintage Mr Beer and ALL of us want another and have not found an adequte substitute.

I will say the SS Caverns are as close as I have found.. With exception of the see thru angle. So they are my go to secondary.

Wish me luck..

 

[mattd2]

...I will say the SS Caverns are as close as I have found.. With exception of the see thru angle. So they are my go to secondary.
...

What are these SS caverns you keep referring to?

 

[bottlebomber]

What are these SS caverns you keep referring to?

http://www.dwbrewproducts.com/shop/product_info.php/gal-stainless-steel-carboy-p-59

 

[blueseamonkey]

Here in the Philippines there is a severe lack of suitable fermentation vessels - food grade buckets are very hard to find and there's not a LHBS in the country. BUT I have seen something VERY similar to your idea, its essentially a PET transparent blue water dispenser with a spigot and a large opening at the top. Round and square types are available, some have handles on the side. My only concern with these was the volume was only 5 US gallons - which unless I scale recipes down to 4 gallons makes them not particularly suitable as a primary.

They are available for only 200PhP - about 5 US dollars retail. I initially rejected them for a bucket instead because of the volume issue, but I am having to replace my fermentor now after an infection and I think I will choose one of these water jugs this time.

Space for an extra gallon or 2 would be nice, (7 US gallons would be better than 6 because then you can brew British 5 gallon recipes without scaling) plus a better quality spigot (I'll be swapping the original one out) but not nice enough to justify paying 34 dollars more.

I found a couple of pictures from a local vendor - so you can get the general idea. The 2 containers at the top left of the 1st picture are the items I am talking about, these versions have no handles but others I have seen do have them.

 

[CDGoin]

Wow.. thanks a lot for the lead. Looks if they do custom fabrication too.. so who knows.

Its REALLY damn close to my idea.. Just needs an increase in volume. and a hole in the top.

BTW it "says" 5 gallons.. but is it 5 gall on to the top or to the "fill line". Also often I find these things listed as 5 gallon and then tend to be 20L. Which is a quarter gallon more, give head space for the cap, and it should be just enough for a 5 gallon batch. That said, it is best for the fermenter to be 30L or so to allow for a batch that goes large, or a big beer with a lot of krausen.

 

[CDGoin]

http://www.dwbrewproducts.com/shop/product_info.php/gal-stainless-steel-carboy-p-59

Beat me too it.. there is also this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/reviews/deep-wood-brew-7-gallon-ss-carboy-cavern.html

I will say as much as I promote thier product, its only because I absolutely love it. I have no relationship with the company outside of homebrewtalk.com where I found out about them. I just believe in supporting companies that support my hobby.

Probably comes from my car hobby side and my own business (www.ez2wire.com a hot rod wiring reseller). So its the whole do unto others as you would have them do unto you thing

I firmly believe even if I did get my fermenter made, I would use the Caverns for secondary and long term storage due to durability, and opaqueness.