WLP644 -Brett B Trois

[mhenry41h]

My experience with Brett is that it will take off quickly but will go through cycles. Watch it closely as it should stop and start again...perhaps even twice or more. I read that a week to 10 days is the sweet spot.

 

[Almighty]

adc - the initial lag phase is similar to Sacc, it is the growth phase that is longer and hence why you need a longer starter time.
http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer-brewing/brewers_yeast/yeast_life_cycle.htm

 

[loctones]

Check out this part from Chad Yakobson's thesis. WLP644 is supposed to be the same as what's listed as BSI-Drie on the chart. It hits it's max growth after about 8 days. I either read or heard (on the Brewing Network interview) that this data was gathered with the starter on a stir plate at 80 deg.

http://www.brettanomycesproject.com/dissertation/propagation-and-batch-culture-growth/propagation-results/

I have my vial waiting to be pitched into the starter, but haven't gotten it going, yet.

 

[adc123]

Thanks guys. Makes sense for the difference. I just usually here from people that brett starters are quite silent, but this strain is quite a different beast from other bretts.

 

[Quaker]

My vial was just pitched into a 750mL starter this morning. It's currently not on my stirplate. I thought I'd let it go a few days as is to see how it performs first. I can always put it on later in the week if its not doing much. Plan to brew next weekend.

 

[Quaker]

Pic of my starter after only 12 hours with no aeration. Room temp is about 24C (75F).

 

[Quaker]

About 22 hours after pitching, and you wouldn't think it was anything special. It looks and smells like a slightly fruity Belgian strain. This has been with no aeration or agitation.

 

[Coff]

I just pick this up yesterday, I hope to get it in the fermenter within a week. Thinking about doing a citrusy Pale Ale but not sure.

 

[JLem]

I started a thread about my recent experience using wlp644 in a 100% Brett beer over in the Yeast and Fermentation forum. I hadn't thought about putting it here, but AmandaK suggested I post a link on this thread so as to add it to the discussion. (thanks AmandaK!) https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/dilemma-100-brett-not-337296/

The gist of the story is that I made a starter of wlp644, but did not have the time to let it go for the full recommended 7-8 days. I gave it about 2.5 days instead. It looked/behaved just like every other non-Brett starter I've done. I pitched it into a 1.045 farmhouse-style wort with a grist that was ~33% raw, non-barley (spelt, red wheat, and quinoa). Fermentation took off in under 12 hours at an ambient temp of 70°F. After 5 days, the gravity is down to 1.020. I know it is early still, but I had hoped it would be lower than that by now. I've wrapped a heating pad around the fermenter to get the temp up a little more.

The hydrometer sample smelled and tasted spectacular - full of tropical fruits.

pic of my wlp644 starter @ 24 hours:

 

[AmandaK]

Cheers to you all for helping me keep a central log of this interesting yeast!

I'm really interested to see how this all pans out. I will most likely be able to get a few beers going with this yeast around January, so by the time they're done it'll be spring time again and I'll be ready for some fruity business.

 

[Quaker]

As reported by others, mine went idle after about 2 days of high activity. Since I wanted to build it up anyways, I added fresh wort this morning to increase it a little more than 1.5L rather than just wait until it hit it's next growth phase. And then based on reading this presentation by Chad Yakobson posted by Stubbornman in the All Brett Starter thread, I've decided to put my starter on the stir plate. I also had the chance to finally listen to the BN Sunday Session with the CY interview. When people reported acetic production when aerated, it caused me to be overly cautious, not aerating my starter even. But after listening to the interview and reading that presentation, is sounds like any acetic production results in just a minor sourness. So screw it, it's hitting the stirplate to get some more serious growth and activity.

 

[digitalbullet]

Going to brew with 644 tonight! Excited.
Grist:
Belgian pils 6.5 lbs
Wheat 3 lbs
brown sugar 1 lb
Aromatic malt .5 lbs

1 oz saaz @ 60
.5 oz saaz @ 10
1 oz citra @ flameout
1 oz dry hop

We'll see what happens!

 

[Almighty]

Quaker - in my experience the acetic acid production is very minor. It gives the beer a more rounded tart nose and taste. I am not a big fan of acetic acid in my sours and did not think the amount produced was even detectable as acetic acid.

I think the important part is that you want to think about if you want the tartness in your beer. For example, I didn't want it in my 100% Brett Best Bitter were the tartness would not mix well with the high dryness and firm bitterness. However, I do want it in my 100% Brett Table Saison were I want the tartness to accentuate the fruit flavors and spice notes.

 

[Quaker]

That's what i picked up from the interview and presentation which changed my mind. Actually in this batch i was planning to bottle about a six pack of 100% Brett samples, them top off the wort and toss a lacto coated cherry or two from my Berliner Weiss and let it ride for a year. So i don't fear sourness or tartness, i feared the acetic/vinegar sourness which apparently isn't warranted. That said, This morning I can smell some sourness after a night on the stir plate. I'll probably sneak a taste after work tonight.

 

[Quaker]

Brewed today. Mostly trouble free other than a nearly stuck sparge. I used my "countdown" grist which is the base for most my beers lately, so named for the decreasing amounts of various base grains. Added oats due to Chad Yakobsen's comments on the BN. Plan to ferment it in my kettle as usual, then rack onto 1.5 lb. each halved mangoes and apricots with pits with 20g of oak chips soaking in Grand Marnier. Then I'll ignore it for a long while. In a few months I plan to add lacto from my Berliner Weiss. This will be the 4th sour batch which will hide from me in the crawlspace until next summer when I will either keg up individually or experiment with blending. When I rack to secondary, I'll bottle up a few samples to bottle condition and taste young.

Recipe: Countdown BB3

Wort Volume Before Boil: 28.75 l
Wort Volume After Boil: 22.0 l

Actual Pre-Boil Gravity: 10.0 P (1.040)
Actual OG: 11.7 P (1.047)

Predicted IBU (using Tinseth): 19.3
Mash Efficiency: 76.2 %
Boil Duration: 90.0 mins

Fermentables
Chinese Pilsner Malt 4.00 lb (36.4 %) In Mash/Steeped
German Vienna Malt 3.00 lb (27.3 %) In Mash/Steeped
German Wheat Malt 2.00 lb (18.2 %) In Mash/Steeped
German Munich Malt 1.00 lb (9.1 %) In Mash/Steeped
Rolled Oats 1.00 lb (9.1 %) In Mash/Steeped - toasted in a wok until browned and very aromatic

Mash Schedule
Mash Type: Full Mash
Single Step Infusion (69C/156F)
Batch Sparged

Hops
NZ Pacific Jade (14.2 % alpha) 10 g Bagged Pellet Hops used First Wort Hopped
US Amarillo (9.3 % alpha) 15 g Bagged Pellet Hops used 5 Min From End

Yeast: White Labs WLP644-Brett. Bruxellensis Trois - 3L starter, decanted down to 2L

 

[AmandaK]

Quaker, can you elaborate on how you "ferment in your kettle as usual"?

 

[adc123]

he probably means he boils and cools in his kettle, then pitches directly in there, maybe into a fridge for temp regulation. I have heard of that before; its just one less vessel to clean. However, kettles need to be extra-clean and sanitary(all the nooks and crannies) to prevent infection.

 

[AmandaK]

he probably means he boils and cools in his kettle, then pitches directly in there, maybe into a fridge for temp regulation. I have heard of that before; its just one less vessel to clean. However, kettles need to be extra-clean and sanitary(all the nooks and crannies) to prevent infection.

I realize that. I just thought that portion could use a bit more elaboration since its a big part of the process. You know, so people can repeat his process when they read this thread later.

 

[Quaker]

I finish the boil, chill with an immersion cooler, aerate by stirring aggressively, pitch, stir more, then put a snug fitting lid on. I normally stir once more about 12 hours later. I mentioned it above, because it does mean trub and all is in my fermenter. I use hop sacks which limit hop debris in the wort, but any break material is still in there. Normally I don't use a secondary or you could consider my keg a secondary. I keg directly from the kettle after 2 weeks. I let them condition a week or more in the keg before chilling and carbonating. In this case it will go into a plastic carboy once the fermentation is slow enough that I won't need much head space.

 

[Quaker]

Fermentation 24 hours in looking as active an any hefe or Belgian yeast.

 

[Oldsock]

I have an IPA that is 10 days into fermentation in with 100% Trois (two stage starter on a stir-plate, ended up at 1.5 L). Had the beer fermenting at 66 F ambient until this morning, when I moved it to an area in the mid-70s to help it finish out. What sort of attenuation have people seen? I did pale/wheat mostly with ½ lb of carapils, and mashed a bit cool. Hoping for low-80s apparent attenuation.

Hoping for a good combination with the fruity hops (Citra, Centennial mostly) and the fruity/funky yeast.

 

[mhenry41h]

I have an IPA that is 10 days into fermentation in with 100% Trois (two stage starter on a stir-plate, ended up at 1.5 L). Had the beer fermenting at 66 F ambient until this morning, when I moved it to an area in the mid-70s to help it finish out. What sort of attenuation have people seen? I did pale/wheat mostly with ½ lb of carapils, and mashed a bit cool. Hoping for low-80s apparent attenuation.

Hoping for a good combination with the fruity hops (Citra, Centennial mostly) and the fruity/funky yeast.

I'm super curious to see how this turns out. I'm not yet sold on the Belgian IPA's. I've had a few incredibly good ones and the others seemed to not meld together. I suspect this one will have the esters of Belgian yeasts without much of the phenols. Very interesting!

 

[JLem]

I have an IPA that is 10 days into fermentation in with 100% Trois (two stage starter on a stir-plate, ended up at 1.5 L). Had the beer fermenting at 66 F ambient until this morning, when I moved it to an area in the mid-70s to help it finish out. What sort of attenuation have people seen? I did pale/wheat mostly with ½ lb of carapils, and mashed a bit cool. Hoping for low-80s apparent attenuation.

Hoping for a good combination with the fruity hops (Citra, Centennial mostly) and the fruity/funky yeast.

Mike - I am 2 weeks into my fermentation and am at 73% attenuation. I started at 1.045, after 5 days I was down to 1.020, and now, after 14 days, I am at 1.012. I started the fermentation at 70°F. After taking a reading on day 5 I ramped it up to 75°F. I am hoping it will drop another several points to 1.010 at least. I'd feel better at 1.008.

Aroma and taste are tending towards ripe tropical fruit. Perhaps less crisp than it was at my last sampling on day 5.

Here's a pic of how things look in the fermenter (Day 14):

 

[Almighty]

I just racked my Table Saison (1.044) with Brett Drie and was surprized by the F.G. (.999) - 103% Apparent Attenuation. Mashed at 147 with 80% Pils, 15% Rolled Oats, 2.5% Acid Malt, 2.5% Piloncillo sugar.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2012/06/great-saison-experiment-8-strains-part.html

And looking back on past brews
Extra Special Bretter - 1.048 - 1.006 - 87.5% Apparent Attenuation . Mashed 152 - 2nd Running beer with very little crystal malts.
Old Ale - 1.079 - 1.014 - 82% Apparent Attenuation - Mashed 154 - 7.5% Crystal Malts, 8% Turbinado sugar
Original Brett Bitter - 1.048 - 1.010 - 79% Apparent Attenuation - Mashed 154 - 8% crystal malts

I have never put the numbers together, but they seem to make pretty logical sense.

 

[nofootbreak]

3 weeks in im at 1.007, with a 1.054 og. Definitely fruity, though i cant pick much out in particular except an aroma that reminds me of white wine. My starter had the same distinct aroma.

Mashed at 150, fermentation was 73 ambient, no off flavors. I felt that temp was a gamble, but im not disappointed. dont have my recipe on me at the moment.

Thinking about a small dry hop with nelson sauvin and a touch of citra or sorachi ace.

 

[AmandaK]

Thinking about a small dry hop with nelson sauvin and a touch of citra or sorachi ace.

Sounds like a pretty good idea!

Also, I'd like to link this thread with Mike's blog post over on The Mad Fermentationist.

Cheers guys!

 

[Oldsock]

Mike - I am 2 weeks into my fermentation and am at 73% attenuation. I started at 1.045, after 5 days I was down to 1.020, and now, after 14 days, I am at 1.012. I started the fermentation at 70°F. After taking a reading on day 5 I ramped it up to 75°F. I am hoping it will drop another several points to 1.010 at least. I'd feel better at 1.008.

Aroma and taste are tending towards ripe tropical fruit. Perhaps less crisp than it was at my last sampling on day 5.

Here's a pic of how things look in the fermenter (Day 14):

Interesting, if my stalls high I have no aversion to pitching some US-05 or whatever to get the FG down to where I want it. Seems like Jeffrey is getting really high attenuation. We'll see. I boosted the temperature to 75 yesterday to help it finish out.

 

[Almighty]

I am still enjoying my 100% Brett Drie Bitter that was hopped throughout with Nelson. The hop aroma is still strong after almost 3 months.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2012/05/brett-series-extra-special-bretter.html

I was surprised with my attenuation numbers and that was the first time I put them all together. And something else interesting I just noticed is that a couple of these batches were split and brewed with Sacc strains.

Apparent Attenuation
The Original Bitter - S-04 - 75% Brett Drie - 79%
Table Saison - WY3711 - 100% Brett Drie - 103%

 

[JLem]

I am still enjoying my 100% Brett Drie Bitter that was hopped throughout with Nelson. The hop aroma is still strong after almost 3 months.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2012/05/brett-series-extra-special-bretter.html

I was surprised with my attenuation numbers and that was the first time I put them all together. And something else interesting I just noticed is that a couple of these batches were split and brewed with Sacc strains.

Apparent Attenuation
The Original Bitter - S-04 - 75% Brett Drie - 79%
Table Saison - WY3711 - 100% Brett Drie - 103%

Wow, that's pretty interesting and good to know. Looks like we can expect Brett Drie to attenuate 3-4% more than expected with a Sacch strain. Wonder if anyone else has similar data so we can get the n>2.

 

[Oldsock]

My IPA is down to 1.010 as of last night, 85% AA. Krausen is just about gone. Not bad for a 1.065 all-malt 153 F mashed beer. Flavor was super-fruity, big pineapple/guava/orange from the hops and the Brett. Excited to see how it tastes dry hopped, cold, and carbonated.

 

[nofootbreak]

I forgot to add that mine was a 10 gal batch. The wlp550 half got to 1.010 vs the 1.007 with brett.

I grew the brett up in a 2l starter for 3 weeks.

 

[Quaker]

One week in and mine has dropped to 1.012 from 1.047. I took a reading after 2 days fermenting and it had dropped to 1.015 at that time. So it went fast and furious those first days. Temp rose up to 80 from a 64F pitching temp (room temp was 74). It had just created a thin film of a pellicle today. I racked it onto 1.5 lbs each of halved apricots and mangoes which have been in the freezer and 15g med-toast French oak chips soaked for the week in Grand Marnier. I realized afterwards that I didn't leave any headspace in the event fermentation kicks up with the fruit. So it'll spend the next day or do in a tub as a precaution before getting moved to the basement to be forgotten for a while.

Taste is very simple and smooth. Reminds me of a British pale ale. Mouthfeel is silky; I assume from the oats. I don't get any pronounced tropical aromas or flavors. The finish is drying or puckering (not sour) though, like a dry, tannic wine. I bottled up 2 samples to taste carb'd as is. Thinking I may use the yeast cake for a Bitter or ESB as Almighty has.

After 2 days fermenting



After 1 week, had a continuous pellicle before being disturbed by moving the kettle.





Racking onto fruit.

 

[barrooze]

Can anyone tell me what the differences are between WLP650 (Brett Brux) and WLP644 (Brett Brux Trois)? Is 644 a blend of more than just Brett Brux?

 

[dstar26t]

WLP644 is a different strain of Brett Brux just like Wyeast 5112 Brett Brux is a different strain than WLP650. There are likely more strains of Brett Brux than there are strains of Saccharomyces Cerevisiae.

 

[pohldogg]

644 and 650 are different strains of the same species of brett just like 001 and 002 are different strains of sacch. 644 is isolated from drie fonteinen and 650 was isolated from somewhere else.

 

[barrooze]

Wow. I had no idea. Thanks so much! Is the general consensus that the different strains can be as different as Sacc Ceriv strains can be (001 and 570 are night and day apart IMO)?

 

[barrooze]

I forgot to add that mine was a 10 gal batch. The wlp550 half got to 1.010 vs the 1.007 with brett.

I grew the brett up in a 2l starter for 3 weeks.

Did you use a stirplate?

 

[nofootbreak]

Did you use a stirplate?

No stir plate.

 

[dstar26t]

Wow. I had no idea. Thanks so much! Is the general consensus that the different strains can be as different as Sacc Ceriv strains can be (001 and 570 are night and day apart IMO)?

Yes. Google Chad Yakobson and also listen to his Brewing Network interview.

 

[barrooze]

I'll have to re-listen to that one. Thanks for the info!