Will it mash at pH ~5.00?

[CascadesBrewer]

If there were no difference in mashing at a very low pH and a normal pH, Guinness would have not implemented their practice of steeping the very acidic roast barley separately from the pale mash and adding that roast liquor AFTER the mash. Excessive proteolysis will destroy the character of a beer.

What is the impact downstream to the pH of the beer from doing this? I don't understand the impact of the final pH of the beer and my understanding is that pH may normalize some during the fermentation. I know Palmer recommends a higher pH for dark beers. Will adding the steepings from dark grains after the mash lower the pH of my finished beer too much?

 

[dmtaylor]

It will not be controlled so as to intentionally hit 5.00 mash pH. The original intent was to see if (when left alone to mash "as is") it would mash in the general vicinity of pH 5.00. But now when I get around to mashing it, I will presume 5.00 and then use that presumption to target a "projected" 5.50, and make upward pH adjustments accordingly via the addition of baking soda and pickling lime. If it then hits 5.50 pH during the mash, the presumption will be that if the baking soda and pickling line were not added, it would have hit pH 5.00, or alternatively if it hits some other measured pH, the presumption will be that it would have hit some other mash pH level than 5.00 if it had been left unadulterated, with no pH modifiers.

Oh, okay, NOW I understand. The way you presented the original question wasn’t super clear. You weren’t asking us whether the recipe would mash okay, i.e., convert & saccarify okay at 5.00. You were asking what our guess would be as to the pH of the recipe before adding any baking soda or pickling lime. We were all answering the first question but not the second.

My guess: I think it would mash at about 5.1, approximately, without any baking soda or pickling lime. So, if you want to add those to come up to 5.5 then if my estimate is better than yours (who really knows), then you would need to add slightly less of those items than you were guessing. But yeah it’s all a guess. My guess is based on distilled water plus salts in a >20% dark roasted malt grist, and knowing that in Ray Daniels’ old book Designing Great Beers (which I basically have memorized) he says a distilled water mash with just pale malts gives a mash pH of about 5.8, and he also says for 20% dark roasted malts will bring this down by about 0.5 to 5.3, and with the salts in there I figure this would come down further to about 5.1... Plus or minus about 0.1. Then I know sometimes based on my experience pH is actually a little lower so maybe 5.0, but then since you’re doing a very thin full volume no sparge mash, back to 5.1 again would be my best guess, based on all this and including my experience, which might be flawed but it is what it is, to me, in my world anyway.

So, yeah, somewhere between your ~5.00 and 5.2 would be my guess, but personally I’d wager about 5.1, then base any baking soda type additions based on that. But of course, your guess is probably as good or better than mine.

Does this help??

 

[deadwolfbones]

I've generally targeted a nominal pH 5.4, but I'm going to mash my next couple batches at a target of 5.5 to 5.6 (I'll set MME to 5.55) to see if this change increases mouthfeel.

Interesting reading here: https://byo.com/mr-wizard/setting-record-straight-mash-ph/

Looks like I've been using water chem calculators wrong and (probably) hitting a mash pH 0.2-0.3 too low. Huh.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I am not quite sure I get what this thread is about...

This thread is intended as a guide to assist mash pH prediction software developers in honing their ware at the low mash pH end of the spectrum. Perhaps 95% of home brew beers are likely to fall at the exact opposite end of the spectrum vs. my interest and concern here, which means needing to add acid to bring down a mash pH to the targeted mash pH. Therefore I contend that much effort has been placed upon pegging software precision to the majority end of the brewing spectrum, and that little effort has been placed upon honing software based mash pH prediction tools to properly accommodate what really goes on in a mash wherein a base is required to raise the pH of the wort to the pH target.

All of this came about awhile ago when I plugged a recipe steeped in deep roast and caramel/crystal malts into various of the then available mash pH assistant software packages, and I received predictions ranging from a need for a small amount of acid in order to adjust to the target pH, to no need to do anything, to a need for a little baking soda, to a need for 17-18 grams of baking soda adjustment in order to hit the desired mash pH target. At that juncture I concluded that whereas any available software package will reasonably well predict the need to acidify for the most typical of brews, there is simply no predictive consensus at all with regard to software as to what should be done with regard to mash pH adjustment for the case of homebrews with loads of deep roasted and caramel/crystal malts.

Thus I conceived a standardized grist and a standardized set of rules by which to mash it. Once a consensus is arrived at as to this standardized batches mash pH, software can be modified and adjusted accordingly such that the wild mash pH prediction discrepancy seen today is greatly eliminated.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Interesting reading here: https://byo.com/mr-wizard/setting-record-straight-mash-ph/

Looks like I've been using water chem calculators wrong and (probably) hitting a mash pH 0.2-0.3 too low. Huh.

Hmmm

• Bamforth’s range is: 5.3 to 5.8 (mashtemp) / 5.55 to 6.05 (room temp)
• Briggs’ range is: 5.2 to 5.4 (mash temp) / 5.45 to 5.65 (room temp)
• Kunze’s range is: 5.25 to 5.35 (mash temp) / 5.5 to 5.6 (room temp)
• Lewis’ statement: 5.2 to 5.5 (mash temp) / 5.45 to 5.75 (room temp)

This seem correct? I have generally been targeting a 5.4 reading at 25C since I thought that was in the "good" range and I would rather err on adding too little acid than too much.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

5.4 pH at 25 degrees C. would likely be about 5.1 pH at 66 degrees C. (with, oddly enough, both being correct). But can it be certified that all of these masters of yore measured their mash pH at mash temperature?

 

[brewbama]

I try to hit 5.4 room temp. Plus or minus a hundredth is ok by me.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I try to hit 5.4 room temp. Plus or minus a hundredth is ok by me.

Did you intend to say "tenth" here?

 

[brewbama]

No. Anywhere around 5.39-5.41

 

[Robert65]

Hmmm

• Bamforth’s range is: 5.3 to 5.8 (mashtemp) / 5.55 to 6.05 (room temp)
• Briggs’ range is: 5.2 to 5.4 (mash temp) / 5.45 to 5.65 (room temp)
• Kunze’s range is: 5.25 to 5.35 (mash temp) / 5.5 to 5.6 (room temp)
• Lewis’ statement: 5.2 to 5.5 (mash temp) / 5.45 to 5.75 (room temp)

This seem correct? I have generally been targeting a 5.4 reading at 25C since I thought that was in the "good" range and I would rather err on adding too little acid than too much.

5.60-5.65 room temperature for me. Improvement in every aspect of process and wort and beer quality, night and day, over ~5.4 room temperature.

 

[dmtaylor]

Hmmm

• Bamforth’s range is: 5.3 to 5.8 (mashtemp) / 5.55 to 6.05 (room temp)
• Briggs’ range is: 5.2 to 5.4 (mash temp) / 5.45 to 5.65 (room temp)
• Kunze’s range is: 5.25 to 5.35 (mash temp) / 5.5 to 5.6 (room temp)
• Lewis’ statement: 5.2 to 5.5 (mash temp) / 5.45 to 5.75 (room temp)

This seem correct?

<EDIT: DELETE>No. This was Lewis' error. This is double-corrected to the point of wrongness. Instead, if measuring mash pH at mash temperatures, you need to subtract 0.25 (not 0.35 -- another Lewis error), so the ranges then become 5.05-5.55, 4.95-5.15, 5.00-5.10, and 4.95-5.25. At about 150 F-ish.</EDIT: DELETE>

I do in fact measure my mash pH at mash temperature since I'm so careless and naughty like that.

EDIT: Oh crap! Now I'm reading it wrong and double-correcting! Constant second-guessing. OMG. Mindfu*k. I don't know what the hell to mash at anymore. Ugh........................

Crap. I think I'm gonna have to start mashing at 5.4 @150 F, or 5.65 @70 F. Crap. Why am I still second-guessing myself 5, 6, 7, 8 times on this??? Crap. How do I know I'm right *this* time??

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

5.60-5.65 room temperature for me. Improvement in every aspect of process and wort and beer quality, night and day, over ~5.4 room temperature.

It was your posts discussing this on a different forum that inspired me to bump my mash pH target up.

 

[Robert65]

It was your posts discussing this on a different forum that inspired me to bump my mash pH target up.

And now all we need is a better model for acid addition to adjust the wort pH at knockout! But I don't want to derail you here.

 

[enkamania]

5.60-5.65 room temperature for me. Improvement in every aspect of process and wort and beer quality, night and day, over ~5.4 room temperature.

I never knew this. Need to update my Mash Made Easy spreadsheet for this weekends brew.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

And now all we need is a better model for acid addition to adjust the wort pH at knockout! But I don't want to derail you here.

I have a working spreadsheet model for this. It needs to be beta tested independent of my potential bias.

 

[Robert65]

I have a working spreadsheet model for this. It needs to be beta tested independent of my potential bias.

You have my attention. The only guidance I've seen is Kunze suggesting that Kolbach found wort buffering is 32 mEq/(pH *kg) of malt used, and a post here on HBT somewhere saying Kolbach's number is 34.25. I've used those and they can give an approximation (the latter closer than the former,) but it clearly is at the very least not linear. But I'm way over my head there. I'll be a huckleberry.

 

[Broothru]

5.60-5.65 room temperature for me. Improvement in every aspect of process and wort and beer quality, night and day, over ~5.4 room temperature.

Mommy, my head hurts after reading this entire thread!

I thought life would be simple after I bought a pH meter. I'd just calibrate the device with with some simple buffers, dip the probe in a shot glass amount of wort cooled to 77F (the zero correction point temperature of the buffer solution), and I'd get accurate measures of my process at any point in the brew day. pH 5.2~5.6 would bracket the target of 5.4. Measure after 5-10 minutes into the Beta amylase rest (usually :30 mins. into my modified Hockhurst step mash), then correct with lactic acid to hit my numbers. Clean the device and store it wet so the bulb doesn't dry out. Easy road to better beer!

Brain is now officially blown. I've concluded that I must have it all wrong, but now I have no idea how to get it right, or how to get there. Somebody please just distill it to a Cliff's Notes version for the old guy who wants to do it correctly with a minimum of sciencey stuff. What's the "desirable" pH range to target for mashing, and at what temperature should it be measured? FWIW, I take periodic samples throughout the brewing process to measure refractive index for gravity readings and always measure at 'room temperature' (67F-73F year-round) for consistency and will probably continue to also do so for pH readings, since set base reference points result (for me at least) with less opportunity to commit math errors in public.

Help. Grasshopper seeks enlightenment.

Brooo Brother

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You have my attention. The only guidance I've seen is Kunze suggesting that Kolbach found wort buffering is 32 mEq/(pH *kg) of malt used, and a post here on HBT somewhere saying Kolbach's number is 34.25. I've used those and they can give an approximation (the latter closer than the former,) but it clearly is at the very least not linear. But I'm way over my head there. I'll be a huckleberry.

For downstream (post mash) kettle pH adjustment I'm currently testing a buffer value initially set to a fraction above 30, but the computation of requisite acidity is subsequently modified (varied) by uniquely complexing it with wort density and wort volume.

Basically, since kettle wort is at this juncture fully divorced from the grist from which it derived, and no two process efficiencies are the same, I use cool post boil kettle volume and SG (as OG) to back calculate a hypothetical (inferred) initial Kg quantity of grist at a hypothetical fixed conversion efficiency and proceed from there. You could effectively look at it as the buffering value of the wort being variable to (and varied by) wort density.

 

[dmtaylor]

Okay I'm done second guessing again, finally, I think. Found this (again), which contains links to several other good threads too.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...nse-to-mash-ph-questions.638811/#post-8175675

EDIT: Yup. I've still been mashing at a pH too damn low, about 5.4, when really I should be shooting for 5.60-5.65. Now if only I don't forget this conclusion again after I brew a few more batches I should be all set! This goes a long way also to help explain why many (not all, but many) of my beers seem to have just a slight tartness that has been bugging me. There have been times I've mashed as low as 5.30-5.35, and to my knowledge, now, it is clear to me that this is quite low indeed. Too much confusion over whether the typical pH range is meant for room temp vs. mash temp! Back and forth, ugh. Now I think maybe I've finally got it straight!

And big thanks to @Robert65 for so very non-chalantly bringing this up! I think you're absolutely right!:

5.60-5.65 room temperature for me. Improvement in every aspect of process and wort and beer quality, night and day, over ~5.4 room temperature.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

@CascadesBrewer adding sugar to wort increases alcohol and contributes to a thinner drier beer. This is a basic fact of brewing.

Mashing at 162F produces a fuller bodied beer with less alcohol. This is another basic fact of brewing.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

@CascadesBrewer adding sugar to wort increases alcohol and contraibutes to a thinner drier beer. This is a basic fact of brewing.

Not really related to this thread....but this is a fallacy in my book. I can see how replacing some malt with sugar might lead to a lighter body, but not how adding sugar on top of the existing grain bill will. My flawed experiment help to prove that to me. I have found mixed research about how much body alcohol adds to a beer and research that shows how much sweetness is perceived from alcohol varies from person to person.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Mashing at 162F produces a fuller bodied beer with less alcohol. This is another basic fact of brewing.

More and more I am proving to myself that mash temp has less impact on body than it has been touted. Yes, it has a clear impact on alcohol.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

More and more I am proving to myself that mash temp has less impact on body than it has been touted. Yes, it has a clear impact on alcohol.

I agree, as I've determined (mainly via the use of either Carapils or maltodextrin) that dextrins (which arise and increase as a consequence of mashing at higher and higher temperatures) have little to more likely no impact upon body and mouthfeel, and that's why I'm going to attempt mashing at a (room temperature, or more precisely 25 degrees C.)" target of 5.5 to 5.6 pH during the mash (via mash target pH set at 5.55) as opposed to my former target of 5.4, in order to study if increased mash pH leads to better body and mouthfeel.

Of course this entire line of discussion has nothing to do with this threads intended topic of discussion.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

You're talking about two different types of sugar. One the yeast will convert 100% of to alcohol and the other where only fermentable sugar is converted. The former promotes a thinner drier beer the latter a less thin less dry beer.

 

[Broothru]

Okay I'm done second guessing again, finally, I think. Found this (again), which contains links to several other good threads too.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...nse-to-mash-ph-questions.638811/#post-8175675

EDIT: Yup. I've still been mashing at a pH too damn low, about 5.4, when really I should be shooting for 5.60-5.65. Now if only I don't forget this conclusion again after I brew a few more batches I should be all set! This goes a long way also to help explain why many (not all, but many) of my beers seem to have just a slight tartness that has been bugging me. There have been times I've mashed as low as 5.30-5.35, and to my knowledge, now, it is clear to me that this is quite low indeed. Too much confusion over whether the typical pH range is meant for room temp vs. mash temp! Back and forth, ugh. Now I think maybe I've finally got it straight!

And big thanks to @Robert65 for so very non-chalantly bringing this up! I think you're absolutely right!:

Thanks for tracking down the link. I must have missed it 2 years ago, but it completely lifted the fog enveloping my cranium. So just to confirm my understanding:

1. pH values (for consistency and 'scientific' measurement procedural compliance and standardization) should be referenced at Room Temperature. Also, this reduces thermal stress on the pH meter's bulb.

2. The delta between a mash temperature pH value (~150F) and a room temperature pH value (~75F) is around -0.25.

3. Therefore, a mash temp pH 5.4 = room temp pH 5.65

Conclusion: higher temperature drives measured pH 'reading' to a lower pH 'number' (more acidic), whereas the 'actual' pH measured at RT is the standardized 'value' we need to reference if we are to compare apples to apples.

Further conclusion: I've been targeting and adjusting my pH values incorrectly (0.25 too low; apples to oranges).

As a senior citizen with a sketchy history of remembering and comprehending mathy/sciencey thingies, do I finally have a handle on this stuff?

And one final question: when I plug in a desired pH value of 5.4 into Bru'n Water along with my water profiles (actual & desired) and grist bill, what pH value am I requesting (actual mash temp pH or corrected to RT standardized value pH)?

Brooo Brother

 

[deadwolfbones]

Thanks for tracking down the link. I must have missed it 2 years ago, but it completely lifted the fog enveloping my cranium. So just to confirm my understanding:

1. pH values (for consistency and 'scientific' measurement procedural compliance and standardization) should be referenced at Room Temperature. Also, this reduces thermal stress on the pH meter's bulb.

2. The delta between a mash temperature pH value (~150F) and a room temperature pH value (~75F) is around -0.25.

3. Therefore, a mash temp pH 5.4 = room temp pH 5.65

Conclusion: higher temperature drives measured pH 'reading' to a lower pH 'number' (more acidic), whereas the 'actual' pH measured at RT is the standardized 'value' we need to reference if we are to compare apples to apples.

Further conclusion: I've been targeting and adjusting my pH values incorrectly (0.25 too low; apples to oranges).

As a senior citizen with a sketchy history of remembering and comprehending mathy/sciencey thingies, do I finally have a handle on this stuff?

And one final question: when I plug in a desired pH value of 5.4 into Bru'n Water along with my water profiles (actual & desired) and grist bill, what pH value am I requesting (actual mash temp pH or corrected to RT standardized value pH)?

Brooo Brother

I'm in the same boat as you. I think you have it right.

Also, the Brewer's Friend water calculator specifically mentions that pH estimates are at 77F, so I would assume BeerSmith is the same.

 

[dmtaylor]

Yeah, you've got it right now. Son of a dammit..... we've all been targeting way too low, should enter 5.6 for all our previous 5.4's.

 

[deadwolfbones]

More on the BeerSmith estimates: http://beersmith.com/blog/2016/08/10/using-the-new-brewing-water-and-mash-ph-tools-in-beersmith-2-3/

Brad says the estimates/readings should be at room temp.

 

[Smellyglove]

While you could perform a mash at 5.0, it will invite excessive proteolysis in the wort and that could result in an overly thin beer.

Other than for an academic exercise, it doesn’t appear to be a good assessment.

Can you either provide me with one or several links explaining this, or elaborate? I tried googling but can't find anything which pinpoints this.

And, when I read for example 5.2 in Bru'n Water, is that 5.2 room or mash temp? I guess it doesn't matter as much since the actual mash pH is supposed to be that number I read, no matter if it's mash or room temp?

 

[deadwolfbones]

Can you either provide me with one or several links explaining this, or elaborate? I tried googling but can't find anything which pinpoints this.

And, when I read for example 5.2 in Bru'n Water, is that 5.2 room or mash temp? I guess it doesn't matter as much since the actual mash pH is supposed to be that number I read, no matter if it's mash or room temp?

It does matter because the pH changes with temp (as discussed above in this thread).

 

[Smellyglove]

It does matter because the pH changes with temp (as discussed above in this thread).

Yes I know. But if I measure at the reference temperature for the spreadsheet (which I don't know what is yet, room or mash?), It would be correct. And if the spreadsheet says 5.2, (and let's say it's correct in real world too) then I guess I'd be mashing at 5.2?

Do I need to take into account the pH shift of about 0.25 from room to mash-temperatures? The software gives me a green color in the pH box when I'm in the correct range. So I can only assume that whatever the reference temperature is, this is "good". It would be strange if it gave me a green color if I was 0.25 outside the recommended range?

For example. If the speadsheet says 5.2, and the reference temperature is room temp, then I guess I'd look at 4.95 at mash temperature? If the reference is mash temperature, I should be seeing 5.45 at room temp? This is confusing.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

2. The delta between a mash temperature pH value (~150F) and a room temperature pH value (~75F) is around -0.25.

Since plenty of reference information is available for both differentials, it may prove to be the case that for meters with ATC a roughly 0.25 difference is observed, and for meters without ATC a roughly 0.35 difference is observed. ???

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yes I know. But if I measure at the reference temperature for the spreadsheet (which I don't know what is yet, room or mash?), It would be correct. And if the spreadsheet says 5.2, (and let's say it's correct in real world too) then I guess I'd be mashing at 5.2?

To my knowledge all extant mash pH assistant software presumes 25 degrees C. (77 degrees F.) for mash pH sample measurement.

 

[dmtaylor]

Yes I know. But if I measure at the reference temperature for the spreadsheet (which I don't know what is yet, room or mash?), It would be correct. And if the spreadsheet says 5.2, (and let's say it's correct in real world too) then I guess I'd be mashing at 5.2?

Do I need to take into account the pH shift of about 0.25 from room to mash-temperatures? The software gives me a green color in the pH box when I'm in the correct range. So I can only assume that whatever the reference temperature is, this is "good". It would be strange if it gave me a green color if I was 0.25 outside the recommended range?

For example. If the speadsheet says 5.2, and the reference temperature is room temp, then I guess I'd look at 4.95 at mash temperature? If the reference is mash temperature, I should be seeing 5.45 at room temp? This is confusing.

Always assume all software and all reported numbers are always at room temperature... except that the old recommended pH ranges were too low by 0.25 and we should actually be aiming for roughly 5.6 instead of 5.3-5.4. Softwares and spreadsheets should all be basing their calculations on room temperature values... but due to widespread confusion surrounding this topic, likely will not show "green" or "good" at the new 5.6 (@room temp)... but should be! In other words, if the spreadsheet is using 5.2 to calculate salt additions, it refers to 5.2 @room temp. But if the spreadsheet has text recommending that you aim for about 5.2, which would be @room temp, this is actually wrong and you really want to be aiming closer to ~5.6!

 

[Smellyglove]

To my knowledge all extant mash pH assistant software presumes 25 degrees C. (77 degrees F.) for mash pH sample measurement.

That's my thought too. But to just cut to the chase. I can just use the pH assumption in the spreadsheet and call it a day? If it says 5.2 it is 5.2.

 

[dmtaylor]

Since plenty of reference information is available for both differentials, it may prove to be the case that for meters with ATC a roughly 0.25 difference is observed, and for meters without ATC a roughly 0.35 difference is observed. ???

Interesting question. Possibly. I am not sure. We'll need one of our resident scientists to give their thoughts.

 

[deadwolfbones]

That's my thought too. But to just cut to the chase. I can just use the pH assumption in the spreadsheet and call it a day? If it says 5.2 it is 5.2.

If you trust the software, then yes.

FWIW, I never actually test my pH and simply rely on the Brewer's Friend calculator.

 

[Smellyglove]

If you trust the software, then yes.

FWIW, I never actually test my pH and simply rely on the Brewer's Friend calculator.

Yes. I'm assuming the software is correct (doesn't have to be, but that's the assumption for the discussion). So a mash in the software of 5.2 (assuming the ref temp is room) would equal to 5.45 in the mash(ish). Sorry I'm retarded when it comes to this kinds of things.

I stopped measuring pH a while ago. The pH meter read pretty close to the software, but I started wondering if this is just a coincidence after reading the thread.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Yes. I'm assuming the software is correct (doesn't have to be, but that's the assumption for the discussion). So a mash in the software of 5.2 (assuming the ref temp is room) would equal to 5.45 in the mash(ish). Sorry I'm retarded when it comes to this kinds of things.

I stopped measuring pH a while ago. The pH meter read pretty close to the software, but I started wondering if this is just a coincidence after reading the thread.

No, I think 5.2 room temp would work out to 4.95 mash temp, per this:

• Bamforth’s range is: 5.3 to 5.8 (mashtemp) / 5.55 to 6.05 (room temp)
• Briggs’ range is: 5.2 to 5.4 (mash temp) / 5.45 to 5.65 (room temp)
• Kunze’s range is: 5.25 to 5.35 (mash temp) / 5.5 to 5.6 (room temp)
• Lewis’ statement: 5.2 to 5.5 (mash temp) / 5.45 to 5.75 (room temp)

FWIW, this is what I've been doing (5.2-5.3 in the calculators) for some time and my beer is perfectly fine. But I do wonder if it could be better (particularly the maltier styles) if I were shooting for 5.5-5.6 instead.

 

[Smellyglove]

No, I think 5.2 room temp would work out to 4.95 mash temp, per this:



FWIW, this is what I've been doing (5.2-5.3 in the calculators) for some time and my beer is perfectly fine. But I do wonder if it could be better (particularly the maltier styles) if I were shooting for 5.5-5.6 instead.

God dammit! Sorry, yes you are correct. temp up - pH down, that's my rule for this. So if I've been targeting 5.2 in the spreadsheet, does this mean that I've been mashing in a crazy low mash pH? Damn I just can't grasp this. But it gives me a green box!