Will it mash at pH ~5.00?

[Silver_Is_Money]

Will the following recipe mash at a pH of ~5.00 as carefully and properly measured at both the 30 and 60 minute marks of the mash, with pH meters carefully calibrated, and with the pH samples properly cooled to the requisite 75 degrees F.?

No Sparge Stout

9.00 gallons of distilled water (chosen to avoid any potential for alkalinity within RO water)
3.00 grams gypsum
4.00 grams calcium chloride @ ~midpoint of water saturation between anhydride and dihydrate**
1.00 grams Epsom Salt

10.25 lbs. Briess 2-Row Brewers
1.00 lbs. Briess 120L Caramel
0.75 lbs. Briess 350L Chocolate
0.50 lbs. Briess 300L Roasted Barley
0.50 lbs. Briess 500L Black Malt

60 minute mash at a nominal 153 degrees F. Stir well initially, and also at 15 minute intervals during the mash.

No cheating or brand substitutions for the grist components, grist component weights, the water, the minerals, or for the "no sparge" method are permitted. This is intended to be a standard mash pH reference batch which travels into an area which few of us have often (if ever) delved into.

**If you are using liquid calcium chloride, shoot for 3.50 grams anhydrous equivalent by volume. I chose 4.00 grams at ~87.5% CaCl2 and ~12.5% water, as it may likely represent a nominally average moisture state for a broad spectrum of random calcium chloride prills at various ages and historical exposures to humidity.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yes.

 

[Big Monk]

Will the following recipe mash at a pH of ~5.00 as carefully and properly measured at both the 30 and 60 minute marks of the mash, with pH meters carefully calibrated, and with the pH samples properly cooled to the requisite 75 degrees F.?

No Sparge Stout

9.00 gallons of distilled water (chosen to avoid any potential for alkalinity within RO water)
3.00 grams gypsum
4.00 grams calcium chloride @ ~midpoint of water saturation between anhydride and dihydrate**
1.00 grams Epsom Salt

10.25 lbs. Briess 2-Row Brewers
1.00 lbs. Briess 120L Caramel
0.75 lbs. Briess 350L Chocolate
0.50 lbs. Briess 300L Roasted Barley
0.50 lbs. Briess 500L Black Malt

60 minute mash at a nominal 153 degrees F. Stir well initially, and also at 15 minute intervals during the mash.

No cheating or brand substitutions for the grist components, grist component weights, the water, the minerals, or for the "no sparge" method are permitted. This is intended to be a standard mash pH reference batch which travels into an area which few of us have often (if ever) delved into.

**If you are using liquid calcium chloride, shoot for 3.50 grams anhydrous equivalent by volume. I chose 4.00 grams at ~87.5% CaCl2 and ~12.5% water, as it may likely represent a nominally average moisture state for a broad spectrum of random calcium chloride prills at various ages and historical exposures to humidity.

What about scaling it down to a test mash? I would rather not have a Briess based stout on hand.

 

[mongoose33]

What about scaling it down to a test mash? I would rather not have a Briess based stout on hand.

Why?

 

[Big Monk]

Why?

I’m not a fan of Briess malts.

 

[mabrungard]

While you could perform a mash at 5.0, it will invite excessive proteolysis in the wort and that could result in an overly thin beer.

Other than for an academic exercise, it doesn’t appear to be a good assessment.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If it was scaled appropriately, I see no harm in it.

Just prior to boil and the introduction of hops it can be raised to pH 5.4-5.6 (your choice) with baking soda if that would help to tone it down a bit and make it more drinkable.

 

[brewbama]

Have you tried their Full Pint Brewer’s Malt? I’ve only used it once (I also am not a Briess fan) but I have to admit I gave them another shot and liked it. I’ll have to brew a few more batches but initial results are promising.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

While you could perform a mash at 5.0, it will invite excessive proteolysis in the wort and that could result in an overly thin beer.

Other than for an academic exercise, it doesn’t appear to be a good assessment.

I agree, but no one has factually proven that it will indeed descend to a measured mash pH of 5.00 yet. It's sort of a catch 22 situation.

~3/4 pound to a full pound of lactose sugar could also be added to transform it into a Milk Stout and thereby additionally mellow it.

 

[mongoose33]

I’m not a fan of Briess malts.

None of them? What about them is bad, IYO? And which ones do you prefer and why?

 

[Big Monk]

None of them? What about them is bad, IYO? And which ones do you prefer and why?

I like their chocolate malt and that’s about it.

Their base malts are bland and their cara malts don’t have the variety of flavors that comparable malts by Weyermann or Dingemans have.

I use Weyermann almost exclusively except for Dingemans Special B.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

People tend to think that there isn't much difference between say a reading of pH 5.25 and a reading of pH 5.00, but they fail to realize that (for aggregate grist buffering being nominally equivalent) a mash measured at pH 5.00 has 78% more acid (dissociated H+ ions, roaming free to be picked up by a pH meter) within it than a mash measured at pH 5.25.

And likewise a base malt with a DI_pH of 5.58 (such as for a nominal 2-Row Brewers type malt) has nigh on fully twice the inherent acidity of a base malt with a DI_pH of 5.88 (such as for a premium European Pilsner type malt).

We are not talking trivialities in acidity difference here. We are talking major differences in acid levels.

 

[Big Monk]

People tend to think that there isn't much difference between say a reading of pH 5.25 and a reading of pH 5.00, but they fail to realize that (for aggregate grist buffering being nominally equivalent) a mash measured at pH 5.00 has 78% more acid (dissociated H+ ions, roaming free to be picked up by a pH meter) within it than a mash measured at pH 5.25.

And likewise a base malt with a DI_pH of 5.58 (such as for a nominal 2-Row Brewers type malt) has nigh on fully twice the inherent acidity of a base malt with a DI_pH of 5.88 (such as for a premium European Pilsner type malt).

We are not talking trivialities in acidity difference here. We are talking major differences in acid levels.

I'll be interested to see the results.

 

[Soulshine2]

so can you break down the comparison of Breiss, Weyermann and Rahr. I've used them all .
I may have used Dingemans but probably only in small volume(<1 lb orphan bag) .

 

[ajdelange]

People tend to think that there isn't much difference between say a reading of [mash] pH 5.25 and a reading of pH 5.00,

There isn't. It's a quarter of a pH unit and that's usually not that significant.

...but they fail to realize that (for aggregate grist buffering being nominally equivalent) a mash measured at pH 5.00 has 78% more acid (dissociated H+ ions, roaming free to be picked up by a pH meter) within it than a mash measured at pH 5.25.

That's true but they generally don't care about that because natural systems don't respond to the hydrogen ion concentration. They respond to its logarithm which is why we use the pH scale instead of the hydrogen ion concentration scale. What is important in this particular case is how a pH change of 0.25 changes the performance of the myriad pH dependent reactions of the mash tun. Most of the responsible enzymes have broadish peaks and ±0.125 pH isn't going to make much difference as long as you are near the peak. If you are on a shoulder then perhaps it does make some difference. At mash pH (5.4 - 5.6) it's not that critical (but that doesn't mean that the beer might not be better at pH 5.5 than at pH 5.6. When mash pH gets as low as 5 - 5.2 then things may be more critical but that's terra incognita to me. You don't want to be mashing in that region AFAIK.

And likewise a base malt with a DI_pH of 5.58 (such as for a nominal 2-Row Brewers type malt) has nigh on fully twice the inherent acidity of a base malt with a DI_pH of 5.88 (such as for a premium European Pilsner type malt).

No. In the first place it needs to be understood that acidity, as is the case with alkalinity, can only be specified with respect to a reference pH. In brewing the obvious reference pH is the realized or desired mash pH we usually call pHz. If we decide that we want pHz = 5.6 then the malt with pHdi = 5.58 is acidic but the malt with pH 5.88 is basic. For both malts to be acidic we would have to look at pHz > 5.88 which we would never do. And even if we did, for one malt to be twice as acid as the other we would have to have a1*m1*(pHz - pHdi1) = 2*a1*m2(pHz - pHdi2) which clearly depends on not only the DI pH's of the two malts but also on their buffering capacities (approximated here by the linear terms a1 and a2) and masses (m1 and m2). Thus it is absurd to say that one base malt is twice as acid as another.

If, OTOH, we wanted to look at the per kg acidity of dark malts and we had a pair with pHDi1 = pHDi and pHdi2 = pHdi - 0.3 for one to be twice as acidic in a mash we would have to have a1*(pHz - pHDi + 0.3) = 2*a2*(pHz - pHDi) from which it is clear that the buffering capacities would have to obey a1/a2 = 2*(pHz - pHDi)/(pHz - pHDi + 0.3). Or, more broadly, the ratio of the acidities would be

acidity_ratio = [a2*(pHz - pHDi2)]/[a1*(pHz - pHDi1)]

The essence here, in words rather than equations, is that the relative acidities of two malts depend on the acid/base properties of the malt (DI mash pH AND buffering) AND the mash pH.

We are not talking trivialities in acidity difference here. We are talking major differences in acid levels.

You need to understand what acidity and alkalinity actually are before attempting to make statements like that. We were ill served by our teachers when they taught us that pH is a measure of "acidity". The hydrogen ion concentration of a solution is not its acidity (though I don't have a candidate alternative name to offer). To try to tie relative acidities of malts to just the measured pH of DI mashed samples of them is naive which is OK but to mislead readers here with such statements is not, IMO, OK.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The essential question which still stands is: Will it mash at ~5.00 pH?

 

[ajdelange]

Clearly yes, but the beer won't be as pleasing as it would be were it mashed at pH 5.4 - 5.6.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Clearly yes, but the beer won't be as pleasing as it would be were it mashed at pH 5.4 - 5.6.

Would the introduction of ballpark 6.0 to 6.5 grams of baking soda after the mashes 30 minute mark pH sample has been taken and a pH right close to 5.00 has been verified help to alleviate this, or will it be too late to bring it back to a more pleasing state by that juncture?

 

[ajdelange]

I can only say "possibly" but I am doubtful. After 30 minutes the die is probably pretty well cast. The best thing to do here is use this beer as a learning experience. Apparently you are doing this on purpose: boldly going where no man has (intentionally) gone before. If I'm reading that right then leave it alone and see what happens.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm placing this recipe in my que. First up I need to brew a Belgian Dubbel though. And I also need to get a second pH meter, so I can double check myself as to a samples measured pH each time I take a sample for that purpose.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If I lose my nerve I may just add ~6.25 grams of baking soda to the 9 gallons of strike/mash water right up front along with the other minerals and then just see where the 30 minute mash pH winds up. That way it's more likely to be drinkable in the end.

The last stout I brewed came in at 5.18 pH at 30 minutes and 5.21 pH at 60 minutes of mashing respectively, but to that one I had added 2.36 grams of baking soda to the mash water right up front. I also added 1 lb. of lactose sugar just prior to the boil, and it came out quite nice overall in my opinion.

 

[Big Monk]

If I lose my nerve I may just add ~6.25 grams of baking soda to the 9 gallons of strike/mash water right up front along with the other minerals and then just see where the 30 minute mash pH winds up. That way it's more likely to be drinkable in the end.

The last stout I brewed came in at 5.18 pH at 30 minutes and 5.21 pH at 60 minutes of mashing respectively, but to that one I had added 2.36 grams of baking soda to the mash water right up front. I also added 1 lb. of lactose sugar just prior to the boil, and it came out quite nice overall in my opinion.

Ever consider reducing the amount of crystal and roast malts?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Ever consider reducing the amount of crystal and roast malts?

Maybe it's my age and diminished taste buds, but I like it robust.

 

[mabrungard]

If it was scaled appropriately, I see no harm in it.

Just prior to boil and the introduction of hops it can be raised to pH 5.4-5.6 (your choice) with baking soda if that would help to tone it down a bit and make it more drinkable.

If there were no difference in mashing at a very low pH and a normal pH, Guinness would have not implemented their practice of steeping the very acidic roast barley separately from the pale mash and adding that roast liquor AFTER the mash. Excessive proteolysis will destroy the character of a beer.

You can't mash too low and then raise pH after the mash and have the same beer. It does make a difference.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If there were no difference in mashing at a very low pH and a normal pH, Guinness would have not implemented their practice of steeping the very acidic roast barley separately from the pale mash and adding that roast liquor AFTER the mash. Excessive proteolysis will destroy the character of a beer.

You can't mash too low and then raise pH after the mash and have the same beer. It does make a difference.

Well, that has me sold on adding the baking soda up front. Thanks Martin!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Here is a snapshot. It is calling for 7.1 grams of baking soda. Due to the high sodium from 7.1 grams of baking soda I may split the straight baking soda into an addition of 3.5 grams of baking soda and 1.8 grams of pickling lime.

 

[Dland]

I have not got into the science of this the way some of you have, but first time I used acid malt I put in 5%, combined with my low pH well water, resulted in a mash that read somewhat below pH of 5 according to 4-7 pH strips. (I know one could debate whether they are accurate, but these seem to be at least in ball park.)

I got good efficiency, but the resulting beer does not taste great; thin, a little sour. Not quite a dumper, so far have mostly been using in blends with other brews when I want something lighter.

Batch is a pilsner that has been lagering for about a month now, still hoping it evens out a bit more.

 

[dmtaylor]

Any update on this thread @Silver_Is_Money ?

FWIW, I've considered trying a similar experiment... but I'd lean towards adding pickling lime at various stages, not baking soda, as I'm not a fan of high sodium in my beer.

I think it will mash just fine. Just will end up thin and acrid, as the water scientists have indicated... and probably a tad tart. e.g., like a poorly made stout which I've purchased commercially dozens of times.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Any update on this thread @Silver_Is_Money ?

FWIW, I've considered trying a similar experiment... but I'd lean towards adding pickling lime at various stages, not baking soda, as I'm not a fan of high sodium in my beer.

I think it will mash just fine. Just will end up thin and acrid, as the water scientists have indicated... and probably a tad tart. e.g., like a poorly made stout which I've purchased commercially dozens of times.

I still need to get a new pH meter (or two), and brew a Trappist Ale (like) beer that is at the top of my que. Then I will revisit this brew.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Any update on this thread @Silver_Is_Money ?

FWIW, I've considered trying a similar experiment... but I'd lean towards adding pickling lime at various stages, not baking soda, as I'm not a fan of high sodium in my beer.

I think it will mash just fine. Just will end up thin and acrid, as the water scientists have indicated... and probably a tad tart. e.g., like a poorly made stout which I've purchased commercially dozens of times.

Do you think that if I target pH 5.5 and add pickling lime (or a combination of baking soda and pickling lime) to the mash water right up front it will still have these negative flavor qualities?

 

[dmtaylor]

Do you think that if I target pH 5.5 and add pickling lime (or a combination of baking soda and pickling lime) to the mash water right up front it will still have these negative flavor qualities?

No, why would it?

 

[Vale71]

Of course it will mash. Mashing works at PH values that are well outside the recommended range. Take for example the measured distilled water PH of a Pilsner type malt. The average value lies in the vicinity of PH 6.0 which is well above the recommended range. What this means in practical terms is that a lab performed a Congress mash with distilled water, measured the PH value of the mash and then proceeded until full conversion and mashout without further adjustments. The lab then performed a series of tests on the resulting wort. So, even if the PH value of the mash was well above what is recommended this did not prevent the mash to be carried to completion.
A very low PH of 5.00 will not prevent full conversion, it will just shift the amylase activity towards beta-amylase while alpha activity will be subdued. As a result conversion will take considerably longer and attenuation will be rather low.
The resulting beer will not necessarily be 'tart' or acidic as the final beer PH will still be set by the yeast during fermentation and the starting PH only has a limited effect on the finished beer PH.
I seem to understand that you want to perform this mash in this way as an experiment, otherwise I would of course recommend delaying the salts additions until mashout to raise the mash PH as much as possible.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Of course it will mash. Mashing works at PH values that are well outside the recommended range. Take for example the measured distilled water PH of a Pilsner type malt. The average value lies in the vicinity of PH 6.0 which is well above the recommended range. What this means in practical terms is that a lab performed a Congress mash with distilled water, measured the PH value of the mash and then proceeded until full conversion and mashout without further adjustments. The lab then performed a series of tests on the resulting wort. So, even if the PH value of the mash was well above what is recommended this did not prevent the mash to be carried to completion.
A very low PH of 5.00 will not prevent full conversion, it will just shift the amylase activity towards beta-amylase while alpha activity will be subdued. As a result conversion will take considerably longer and attenuation will be rather low.
The resulting beer will not necessarily be 'tart' or acidic as the final beer PH will still be set by the yeast during fermentation and the starting PH only has a limited effect on the finished beer PH.
I seem to understand that you want to perform this mash in this way as an experiment, otherwise I would of course recommend delaying the salts additions until mashout to raise the mash PH as much as possible.

When I asked the question, I was not looking at it from the perspective of conversion, but rather from the perspective of where the mash pH would level out. As in, will it mash at pH 5.3, 5.2, 5.10, 5.00, 4.90, etc...

 

[dmtaylor]

Will the following recipe mash at a pH of ~5.00 as carefully and properly measured at both the 30 and 60 minute marks of the mash, with pH meters carefully calibrated, and with the pH samples properly cooled to the requisite 75 degrees F.?

Okay, I think you're asking two different things here. How can a mash that is controlled and verified at exactly 5.00 for the whole mash level out someplace other than 5.00?

 

[Vale71]

It seems like everybody who responded misunderstood your question then...

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

It's a rhetorical question at best. Not the same as posting a recipe along with actual brewday results. Which is challenging enough trying to get someone to replicate and then post their results.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Okay, I think you're asking two different things here. How can a mash that is controlled and verified at exactly 5.00 for the whole mash level out someplace other than 5.00?

It will not be controlled so as to intentionally hit 5.00 mash pH. The original intent was to see if (when left alone to mash "as is") it would mash in the general vicinity of pH 5.00. But now when I get around to mashing it, I will presume 5.00 and then use that presumption to target a "projected" 5.50, and make upward pH adjustments accordingly via the addition of baking soda and pickling lime. If it then hits 5.50 pH during the mash, the presumption will be that if the baking soda and pickling line were not added, it would have hit pH 5.00, or alternatively if it hits some other measured pH, the presumption will be that it would have hit some other mash pH level than 5.00 if it had been left unadulterated, with no pH modifiers.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Wait, is 5.4-5.6 really the generally preferred mash range? I've always seen 5.2-5.4 or 5.5.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Wait, is 5.4-5.6 really the generally preferred mash range? I've always seen 5.2-5.4 or 5.5.

I've generally targeted a nominal pH 5.4, but I'm going to mash my next couple batches at a target of 5.5 to 5.6 (I'll set MME to 5.55) to see if this change increases mouthfeel.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I am not quite sure I get what this thread is about...

I posted a bit ago about a Porter that I brewed where I measured the mash pH at 5.0 (well..4.99). The original goal of my brew was 1) to improve on a previous Porter I brewed and 2) an experiment where I would add sugar to half the batch to compare the difference between a 5% Porter and a 6% Porter (boosted with table/cane sugar). That was the plan...

Two mash issues got in the way of the experiment. As I brought the wort up to boil, I realized that the thermometer I used for mash temps was off 10F. Instead of mashing at 152F, I mashed around 162F. The other issue was that my mash pH registered 4.99. My inexpensive pH meter has been reliable enough that I have some confidence that the pH was actually close to that value.

Efficiency was spot on (OG of 1.052) giving me some confidence that the beer was fine. The fermentation appeared fine, but finished at 1.030 for a beer that was just under 3% ABV. Despite the crazy high FG, the beer was fairly thin and dry (the roasted malts stood out too much). I don't know how much to attribute to the pH or the mash temp.

The half of the batch that had sugar added to the fermenter was closer to being a good beer. In a blind taste I could pick the two out, and the one with the added sugar was more in balance with more body. They got closer after a month or two in the keg. A few times I gave glasses of these beers to people who did not know the background and they enjoyed them. For me, it was hard to get over the bias of knowing the issues of the brew day enough to really enjoy a pint of either.