Why RIMS/HERMS when Igloos are so stable?

[luckybeagle]

Howdy,
This may be a dumb question, but I'm curious why people would go through the effort of setting up a RIMS or a HERMS system when 10 gallon igloo coolers hold temperature during the mash so well? I understand them for a setup that only has steel kettles, or something larger than 10 gallons, but what would the benefit be in setting up one if you already are planning to use super insulating igloo/rubbermaid coolers?

 

[RM-MN]

Step mashes?

Why do people use Igloo coolers when they could go BIAB with a fine crush and have the conversion done before heat loss is an issue?

 

[AMessenger]

My first mash tun was a rectangular cooler and my current is the SS Brewtech 10 gal mash tun.

They hold temperature well but I still like my RIMS for a couple reasons:
1. If I screw up on my strike water temperature calculations it is easy to adjust. For me, this means a less stressful brewday.
2. The temps are reasonably stable (2-3 F drop over an hr for me usually) in an insulated mash tun but I've noticed a fairly high temp difference between the top and bottom of the mash tun develops (5-10 F) part way through the mash. I found that i wasn't able to correct this very efficiently through stirring. I think the cycling of the wort through the rims eliminates this. Temp differences may not matter but I like to know what I've done to make the beer so that I could repeat it later - finding odd variables in the mix frustrates me

 

[AMessenger]

Step mashes?

Why do people use Igloo coolers when they could go BIAB with a fine crush and have the conversion done before heat loss is an issue?

No argument with your points but dealing with a heavy and awkward bag dripping hot sticky wort is what kills me about BIAB. Usually felt like I needed to jump in the shower after moving it.

Cleanup is a pain with the mash tun but is a whole lot less messy.

 

[madscientist451]

I put a BIAB bag in the cooler and cleanup is pretty easy.
Don't have an answer for why people want complicated RIMS and other brew rigs, but if it works for them, that's great. Making wort is pretty easy, you really don't need anything high tech or expensive. If you are just starting out, make wort as cheaply as possible and put your available resources into fermentation temperature control and then into getting some kind of keg set up. You'll be glad you did.

 

[mongoose33]

Step mashes?

Why do people use Igloo coolers when they could go BIAB with a fine crush and have the conversion done before heat loss is an issue?

I'm just going to throw this out there as a tenet of LODO brewing--a fine crush is subject to oxidation, and even though I did many batches with BIAB successfully, there's always more...grain residue in the kettle after BIAB than using a mash tun with a much coarser crush.

I've been working with LODO techniques since the end of last year, and while the jury is still out as to whether I'll continue to use them, some things seem a no-brainer, such as limiting oxidation.

 

[mongoose33]

No argument with your points but dealing with a heavy and awkward bag dripping hot sticky wort is what kills me about BIAB. Usually felt like I needed to jump in the shower after moving it.

Cleanup is a pain with the mash tun but is a whole lot less messy.

I bought and use rubber-coated gloves for managing a BIAB bag full of hot, sticky grain. I use them to squeeze when I want to squeeze, and they both protect my hands from the heat as well as make cleaning up pretty easy. I bought them new, and washed the daylights out of them before I used them the first time.

 

[youngdh]

I do smaller 3G (volume into fermenter) batches using BIAB which means my mash volumes for a 1.055 F.G. beer are approx 6G meaning less volume to retain mash temp. I brew outside in my garage using propane. During winter months is much harder to hold mash temps. Even with 3 layers of reflexit insulation and a sleeping back I will loose 3-5 degrees F during the one hour mash. My mashes typically take the entire hour to reach my target gravity. I would stir my mash every 20 min which would exacerbate my heat loss. I researched building a RIMs for my kettle to hold a steady mash temp when I read about sous vid sticks for cooking. I had an epiphany and said, “for my small mash volumes couldn’t a 1200W sous vid stick be used as a poor man’s RIMs?”. I bought one along with a 300 mesh SS hop spider to put the stick in (to keep the grains away from the heating element) and viola, worked like a champ Plus it continuously recirculates the mash! I also no longer worry about over shooting my strike temps. I shut off the burner a few degrees proud of strike and let the sous vid stick creep up to strike temp. I can now control mash temps throughout the mash and since the stick is Wi-Fi enabled and has a timer I can be any where during the mash that I have Wi-Fi and monitor time and temp from my iPhone . Life is good! Oh, and handling a wet BIAB with 5# dry weight of grains is easily drained without needing lifting contraptions.

 

[TenaCJed]

My first mash tun was a rectangular cooler and my current is the SS Brewtech 10 gal mash tun.

They hold temperature well but I still like my RIMS for a couple reasons:
1. If I screw up on my strike water temperature calculations it is easy to adjust. For me, this means a less stressful brewday.
2. The temps are reasonably stable (2-3 F drop over an hr for me usually) in an insulated mash tun but I've noticed a fairly high temp difference between the top and bottom of the mash tun develops (5-10 F) part way through the mash. I found that i wasn't able to correct this very efficiently through stirring. I think the cycling of the wort through the rims eliminates this. Temp differences may not matter but I like to know what I've done to make the beer so that I could repeat it later - finding odd variables in the mix frustrates me

This and also during cold winters the drop is about double. I still use a 10 gallon cooler, along with RIMS to ensure temp and to circulate instead of stir.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Howdy,
This may be a dumb question, but I'm curious why people would go through the effort of setting up a RIMS or a HERMS system when 10 gallon igloo coolers hold temperature during the mash so well? I understand them for a setup that only has steel kettles, or something larger than 10 gallons, but what would the benefit be in setting up one if you already are planning to use super insulating igloo/rubbermaid coolers?

Because some love to build more complex systems, and enjoy both building, running them, and also discussing them. The benefit to the finished product is debatable imo.

With practice and experience I find managing mash temp not that difficult, and also not nearly as influential on the finished product as some believe...jmo.

Find your happy place...I feel that with an accurate strike temp and volume, checking mash temp is almost just an exercise....I don’t get would up I’ve a degree or so...

Instead of holding an automated perfect 152 for the mash, I’ll start at say 154 and allow to fall to 150...close enough imo.

 

[luckybeagle]

Great responses! I appreciate it.

I'm in research mode until I move back to the States, and this was a thought that has come up for me a few times while I work on my build design.

As a tinkerer, I buy the build-it-for-the-sake-of-building-it argument. And as a self-proclaimed control freak/data person, the greater ability to control the temperature variable during the mash to more closely replicate a good beer also makes sense to me. It is, however, nice to know that a few degree drop in mash temperature over an hour doesn't mean the final product is going to be seriously negatively affected. Keeping it simple for the first few batches is probably the right approach at this point.

Has anyone ever thrown their mash tun in a mini fridge during the mash for greater temp stability? Maybe that's an idea? It would probably cool slightly while the tun warms up the ambient air in the fridge, though.

 

[kh54s10]

While I would like an electric brewery which would most likely be herms or rims, I also don't worry too much about keeping my mash temperature spot on.

I use a Rubbermaid cooler and find that it does NOT keep the temperature as well as the OP states. Especially in winter up north (I now live in FL). I would often get a drop in temperature around 5 degrees over the hour, sometimes more. Even with the cooler smothered in blankets.

I have never brewed the same exact recipe twice - yet - so consistency is not a factor, (100 batches)
thus, precise control of the mash temperature is not important to me.

 

[kh54s10]

Has anyone ever thrown their mash tun in a mini fridge during the mash for greater temp stability? Maybe that's an idea? It would probably cool slightly while the tun warms up the ambient air in the fridge, though.

I assume you mean in a mini fridge that is OFF. I don't think that would accomplish what you want it to do. It might help if outside air is really cold. But if it is just room temperature that is still about 70 something degrees below what your mash temperature would be. So your mash will most likely drop in temperature.

I have done BIAB in a 5 gallon kettle and put that in my oven warmed to about 150 degrees. That works well.

 

[GoeHaarden]

Because some love to build more complex systems, and enjoy both building, running them, and also discussing them. The benefit to the finished product is debatable imo.

^^^^This is my reason, and probably the reason for most people....

I love to tinker, and I love designing and building things. I have recently decided to redo my RIMS controller and so my mash temp automation system has been down. Therefore, I have reverted back to infusion mashes in my cooler. My beer is still just as good, and I honestly can't tell any difference.

I think one of the main draws to automation is consistency. This is more important if you want to brew the same beer multiple times and have it turn out the same. I can't say I've ever attempted to brew the same beer twice, and so I dont really care if my mash temp drops a few degrees.

I'm quite confident no one can taste a 2 degree mash temp drop in the final product...

 

[thekraken]

My first ever batch was all grain, by my 3rd I cobbled together a RIMS tube with SS plumbing pipe and a re-purposed arduino bbq controller... Now I'm just full volume BIAB w/ a sleeping bag cover and appreciate the simplicity. The added mass of full volume mash helps heat retention.
I'm really with wilserbrewer on this one. I don't think anyone is going to taste the difference between a 154F mash and a 152F mash.

 

[universalfrost]

I do smaller 3G (volume into fermenter) batches using BIAB which means my mash volumes for a 1.055 F.G. beer are approx 6G meaning less volume to retain mash temp. I brew outside in my garage using propane. During winter months is much harder to hold mash temps. Even with 3 layers of reflexit insulation and a sleeping back I will loose 3-5 degrees F during the one hour mash. My mashes typically take the entire hour to reach my target gravity. I would stir my mash every 20 min which would exacerbate my heat loss. I researched building a RIMs for my kettle to hold a steady mash temp when I read about sous vid sticks for cooking. I had an epiphany and said, “for my small mash volumes couldn’t a 1200W sous vid stick be used as a poor man’s RIMs?”. I bought one along with a 300 mesh SS hop spider to put the stick in (to keep the grains away from the heating element) and viola, worked like a champ Plus it continuously recirculates the mash! I also no longer worry about over shooting my strike temps. I shut off the burner a few degrees proud of strike and let the sous vid stick creep up to strike temp. I can now control mash temps throughout the mash and since the stick is Wi-Fi enabled and has a timer I can be any where during the mash that I have Wi-Fi and monitor time and temp from my iPhone . Life is good! Oh, and handling a wet BIAB with 5# dry weight of grains is easily drained without needing lifting contraptions. View attachment 569658

that sous vide idea is genius!

 

[thekraken]

I wonder how well it's actually working though. Those don't circulate water with a whole lot of force, it seems like it would have a hard time getting heat evenly distributed through the entire pot. I suspect it's just maintaining temp locally around the hop spider. I wonder if the mash would work out just the same without it all together. But I am interested in any data if anyone has any.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I do smaller 3G (volume into fermenter) batches using BIAB which means my mash volumes for a 1.055 F.G. beer are approx 6G meaning less volume to retain mash temp. I brew outside in my garage using propane. During winter months is much harder to hold mash temps. Even with 3 layers of reflexit insulation and a sleeping back I will loose 3-5 degrees F during the one hour mash. My mashes typically take the entire hour to reach my target gravity. I would stir my mash every 20 min which would exacerbate my heat loss. I researched building a RIMs for my kettle to hold a steady mash temp when I read about sous vid sticks for cooking. I had an epiphany and said, “for my small mash volumes couldn’t a 1200W sous vid stick be used as a poor man’s RIMs?”. I bought one along with a 300 mesh SS hop spider to put the stick in (to keep the grains away from the heating element) and viola, worked like a champ Plus it continuously recirculates the mash! I also no longer worry about over shooting my strike temps. I shut off the burner a few degrees proud of strike and let the sous vid stick creep up to strike temp. I can now control mash temps throughout the mash and since the stick is Wi-Fi enabled and has a timer I can be any where during the mash that I have Wi-Fi and monitor time and temp from my iPhone . Life is good! Oh, and handling a wet BIAB with 5# dry weight of grains is easily drained without needing lifting contraptions. View attachment 569658

I love this concept. If they made that sous vide cooker so that you could route the output to a hose that was run to the bottom of the kettle, you'd get great recirculation. Like another poster, I'd be concerned that it's really only recirculating the liquid that's in the spider with that setup.

 

[wilserbrewer]

that sous vide idea is genius!

It’s either genius or a big pain in the ass, depending on who you ask...LOL just kidding around...but I have no desire to monkey with such a device.

Handling temps manually does take some practice and experience knowing what to expect and how to manage temps. A noob will often undershoot then overshoot and see saw around a good temp. Experience helps so keep practicing lol.

 

[LittleRiver]

... dealing with a heavy and awkward bag dripping hot sticky wort is what kills me about BIAB. Usually felt like I needed to jump in the shower after moving it. Cleanup is a pain with the mash tun but is a whole lot less messy.

You must have been doing something wrong.

Hoist the bag and let gravity drain it over the kettle during the boil. No squeezing, no sticky hands. Then lower the bag into a bucket and go dump it. Shake the bag, wash it off, hang it to dry. It doesn't get any easier or less messy than that.

 

[Bassman2003]

I made some great beer with my cooler setup. But the longer I do the hobby, (15 years) the desire to control mash temps for step mashing etc... and the use of pumps led me to building a custom system. The building is fun for me and it allows me to experiment with different brewing techniques more easily. Tried BIAB but was not crazy about it. Someday I am going to document my system and post it here on the site. Maybe this summer.

Anyway, coolers are great for what they allow you to do. A lot of brewing can be accomplished with a cooler so there is no shame in staying with them.

 

[GoeHaarden]

I think that is what is so great about this hobby. You get to dictate your own evolution, and it never ends. There is always something to improve upon or change. I mean you already got the LoDo guys to chime in.

 

[Conan]

As WilserBrewer mentioned, if you know your pre-strike temps and volumes the temperature doesn't need to be checked at all. I can't recall the last time I checked my mash temp after striking. That said, I do calibrate/ check my BK, HLT, and chiller thermometers frequently.
Why do people build more complex systems? Because that's part of the hobby and we all enjoy different levels of complexity. Kyle

 

[gunhaus]

I think back to all those brews I made with my homemade bucket in a bucket, a sleeping bag, a big fat canning pot, and dumpy old fermenting bucket! Plus there was the home built racking cane, the old fashioned bottles with caps, and the ever sketchy supply of good ingredients! Its a miracle I was not poisoned!!!!!!!!!! Why the oxidation poisoning, and temperature fluctuation toxicity must have been horrendous. What's worst of all is that so many of them stone aged brews were actually REALLY REALLY tasty!!!!! Thankfully, I have a wide range of much more technical gadgetry today - including my HERMS set up. I still break out my coolers when the weather is nice though. I love beer making!

 

[GoeHaarden]

I think back to all those brews I made with my homemade bucket in a bucket, a sleeping bag, a big fat canning pot, and dumpy old fermenting bucket! Plus there was the home built racking cane, the old fashioned bottles with caps, and the ever sketchy supply of good ingredients! Its a miracle I was not poisoned!!!!!!!!!! Why the oxidation poisoning, and temperature fluctuation toxicity must have been horrendous. What's worst of all is that so many of them stone aged brews were actually REALLY REALLY tasty!!!!! Thankfully, I have a wide range of much more technical gadgetry today - including my HERMS set up. I still break out my coolers when the weather is nice though. I love beer making!

I heard you like to put a lot of fruit in your beer!?

 

[Smellyglove]

It's fun as hell to see the stuff you built working as planned. And, I want to control mash temps to eliminate an x-factor when it comes to repeatability, and I really love boiling as initially clear wort as possible, enter HERMS/RIMS. Recirculation and perfect temp-control throughout the entire mash.

Even if I should miss my dough in target, the herms will bring it up and keep it stable, and making a clear wort, and maximizing efficiency. Some times I do some "fishery", where I want this and that temp for x minutes, which operates at the limits of proper gelatinization and effective conversion, even if I miss and end up low I know I'll get conversion at that step since the herms will bring it up again.

I've done a few infusion step-mashes where I've missed the low-temps and the FG has ended up way higher than intended since I didn't see good gelatinization and conversion before the high step. Could always add more boiling water but then the efficiencies and volumes are off.

I guess all I'm saying is that it's fun and incredible practical.

 

[logdrum]

Recently switched to a RIMS Natural Gas hybrid (HLT+BK gas) & absolutely love it. Easy to do step mashes and clean up seems no more difficult than my cooler set up.

 

[schematix]

Totally worth it. The advantages of rims or herms outweigh the little bit of extra complexity. If I ever had to go cooler mashing I’d do a 120V RIMS.

 

[Boogertownjeff]

My first mash tun was a rectangular cooler and my current is the SS Brewtech 10 gal mash tun.

They hold temperature well but I still like my RIMS for a couple reasons:
1. If I screw up on my strike water temperature calculations it is easy to adjust. For me, this means a less stressful brewday.
2. The temps are reasonably stable (2-3 F drop over an hr for me usually) in an insulated mash tun but I've noticed a fairly high temp difference between the top and bottom of the mash tun develops (5-10 F) part way through the mash. I found that i wasn't able to correct this very efficiently through stirring. I think the cycling of the wort through the rims eliminates this. Temp differences may not matter but I like to know what I've done to make the beer so that I could repeat it later - finding odd variables in the mix frustrates me

 

[Genuine]

I’m a big fan of the electric K-Rims system. Less kettles, recirculation of the mash helps make clearer wort and plus I can bang out a batch in an hour

 

[Jambro64]

I do BIAB but with an electric element. I will be using a pump to recycle the mash, so sort of like a rims system since the element is at the bottom and the wort will get heated before it gets recycled to the top of the mash. Being able to do different temperature changes, like a protein rest at 113F then up to 152F for mash then 168 for a batch sparge will be easier with a RIMS or in this case a modified RIMS. Looking for a little better brew house efficiency.

 

[mneilson]

I wonder how well it's actually working though. Those don't circulate water with a whole lot of force, it seems like it would have a hard time getting heat evenly distributed through the entire pot. I suspect it's just maintaining temp locally around the hop spider. I wonder if the mash would work out just the same without it all together. But I am interested in any data if anyone has any.

It doesn't. It mainly holds temps next to the heater, and the impeller does not have enough drive to circulate through the grain. Measure temp away from the circulator, and it will be much lower.

Sent from my Pixel using Home Brew mobile app

 

[Yooper]

I used a cooler for a long time, but a 10 gallon igloo just isn't big enough to do the size batches I want, and I wanted stainless instead of plastic anyway. My old igloo warped and cracked a little (probably from hot water), but my stainless never will.

 

[sillbeer]

I didn't use my Rubbermaid coolers enough for them to warp or crack but I did have capacity issues and that was my main reason for going with stainless. Plus it was fun after I started learning about it more. I recently sold my High Gravity controller and am in the process of building my own panel right now. I was considering buying a panel but I had an interest in learning about electrical and thought it would be fun to learn along the way.

 

[mabrungard]

Why include RIMS or HERMS? To ensure hitting my mashing temp and to enable stepping the mash temp with ease. With 4500w, I can easily move my wort temp 25F to 30F instantly in my 10 gal system.

I used to use a 120v (1500w) RIMS, but it doesn't have the power to instantly step the wort temp to the degree that 4500w can. The 120v RIMS is fine for maintaining mash temp, but less helpful for temp steps. With a properly adjusted PID, you won't have scorching problems either.

The other very helpful thing with running RIMS/HERMS, is that you don't stir the mash and can further reduce oxygen contact for your wort. I do LODO and have noted significant improvement to malt flavor and character in my continental lagers. With the incredibly low threshold for oxidizing wort, stirring a mash is almost guaranteed to prevent a brewer from achieving a LODO result.

 

[schematix]

I overchill my strike water by 3-4 degrees and then pump through my RIMS with the controller set to strike temp. I'm never off by more than 1 degree now. Either way it's just a matter then of turning on the loop and before you know it its spot on.

240V definitely better performance wise (4X power). But if my goal was to keep it super simple (assuming garage or patio brewing without a 240V outlet) i'd still do a 120V RIMS over no RIMS.

 

[logdrum]

Why include RIMS or HERMS? To ensure hitting my mashing temp and to enable stepping the mash temp with ease. With 4500w, I can easily move my wort temp 25F to 30F instantly in my 10 gal system.

I used to use a 120v (1500w) RIMS, but it doesn't have the power to instantly step the wort temp to the degree that 4500w can. The 120v RIMS is fine for maintaining mash temp, but less helpful for temp steps. With a properly adjusted PID, you won't have scorching problems either.

The other very helpful thing with running RIMS/HERMS, is that you don't stir the mash and can further reduce oxygen contact for your wort. I do LODO and have noted significant improvement to malt flavor and character in my continental lagers. With the incredibly low threshold for oxidizing wort, stirring a mash is almost guaranteed to prevent a brewer from achieving a LODO result.

What are you using to chill the wort?

 

[mabrungard]

I chill with a typical plate chiller. I gave up on immersion chillers a long time ago.

 

[mongoose33]

I chill with a typical plate chiller. I gave up on immersion chillers a long time ago.

Why, Martin? Was this before chillers like the Hydra came out, or for some other reason? I shied away from a plate chiller given issues of clogging and cleaning--not an issue for you?

 

[sillbeer]

I had a plate chiller for awhile and decided to pick up a counter flow chiller. I had concerns with possible contamination but never had issues. The only problem I had was it got clogged one time.