Why do newbies always use so much crystal malt?

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Bosh

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Again and again and again we get newbies popping up and posting things like IPA recipes with 3 pounds of crystal malt. It's been going on for years.

You don't get the same thing with other specialty malts, at least not to that extent. You don't see stout recipes with roasted barley making up 50% of the grain bill, although you do at times get darker beer recipes with umpteen different kinds of specialty malts.

I wonder why that is? What makes crystal malts bombs so appealing to newbies?

I did a hundred boneheaded things as a newbie and continue to do a lot of dumb stuff today but never felt the need to do that. But maybe that's because I bought uncrushed specialty malts and crushed them with a rolling pin and all but the very darkest crystal malts are incredibly annoying to crush in that way.
 
I think it comes from software.

What I mean is, like in Beersmith, crystal malt is described so great! Things like "increases body, provides flavor, and color" sound awesome.

That, and color. Someone sees in their software than a red should be a certain SRM, so they add crystal to get to that color projection.

Otherwise, I don't see too many "bad" first time recipes.
 
I felt compelled to do this myself, if I'm being totally honest. It is the descriptors. They basically sound like things to add that make your beer awesome as if by magic. I'm learning now, however, to just do my research on style guidelines, including looking at recipes/clones of my favorite commercial beers in said style. That and asking for the guidance of the kind folks here at hbt.
 
I did that when I was new. It was the smell for me. Plus no brewing resource I ever read plainly said

"Every recipe is composed of mostly base malt such as 2 row or Maris otter with other malts used in small amounts for flavoring characteristics and color."

It seems obvious now, but when I was new more crystal seemed like a good idea because it smells and tastes sweet and has a nice gold color. That 2 row stuff was boring :)
 
Sure crystal malt sounds and smells good but so do a lot of other specialty malts.

Why don't we see as many recipes with 3 pounds of chocolate malt or buckets full of victory or honey or biscuit or what have you?

For a tangent, if you HAD to use a **** ton of crystal malt how would you make it palatable?

Maybe a milk chocolate stout? Like so:
-Moderate ABV.
-Lots and lots of light and medium crystal malt.
-Enough roasted malt for a good strong roasted taste to balance out the sweetness.
-Lactose.
-Enough hopping to balance SOME of the sweetness at least but not really getting in the way.
-Mash high.
-Rack onto cocoa nibs and/or be lazy and throw in cocoa powder at flame out.

Sounds drinkable.

I think some veterans have gone a bit overboard in the other direction (at least in comparison to my tastes). Am liking using moderate amounts of darker crystal malts (a little caraaroma goes a long way) combined with a high attenuating yeast to get some nice flavor without the sweetness. Tend to prefer beers like Arrogant Bastard to bone dry IPAs. But yeah, can't stand beers where sweetness dominates.
 
Yooper said:
I think it comes from software.

What I mean is, like in Beersmith, crystal malt is described so great! Things like "increases body, provides flavor, and color" sound awesome.

That, and color. Someone sees in their software than a red should be a certain SRM, so they add crystal to get to that color projection.

Otherwise, I don't see too many "bad" first time recipes.
Click to expand...

Software's also a crutch for new brewers. I still know far less than I should about recipe formulation because instead of really studying to understand everything I need to know and running the numbers by hand, I instead just plug everything into Beersmith and take everything for granted. To be fair, I've still learned quite a bit by reading and asking questions here, but I'm well behind where I would be if I had done the research and learned the math and underlying reasons for it whenever I make a recipe rather than just plugging it into a program.

Don't get me wrong, I love using Beersmith, but I'd probably be a better (but busier) brewer without it.
 
I did this also. Not to 3lbs extreme, but for me when I started I was gung ho about everything. I suppose looking back its just excitement of (I'm going to come up with something great) and not even knowing better of how to go about formulating recipes. I'm still a little noobish when it comes to a lot of yeasts and hops, not overdoing it or anything, but more of I just don't know. I have my staple brews, and try incorporate a new brew every third batch or so, just to gain some experience with different recipes, and ingredients. I do know without this forum and the more experienced people on here willing to put time in giving people like me advice, I probably would still be making A LOT of errors. Human nature to help someone if you are in a position to be able to, whether its advice or actually showing them. Ultimately I think we have all done stupid things and have learned from experience, or luckily saved by good advice.
 
Hey, more is better.
Until you make a cloyingly sweet beer that nobody can drink.
I had the benefit of reading lots of books and forums while getting started and developing recipes, but not all do.
It's kinda like Spinal Tap's amps going up to 11. A little caramel is good, why not a lot?
Hopefully everybody learns from their mistakes and doesn't get so discouraged that they give up while still a noob.
 
Good evening. I must be a brewer well beyond my age of 3 batches. My current batch I created myself with the help of HBT, I call it Fire Crotch IPA and it has Amarillo and Citra hops. In an effort to showcase the hops and since I still brew using extract, my only "specialty" actual grain malt was Maris Otter. There was crystal malt in my first two batches because the first batch was from a kit and that is what it came with. My second batch was a pinstripe clone with an LHBS created recipe. It had crystal malt in it. If I remember correctly based on Joy of Homebrewing, there is no escaping chill haze, with out filtering, when using significant amounts of crystal malt. [Patting myself on back for escaping the crystal malt trap]
 
I think it comes from fledgling brewers trying to design their own recipes add in so many specialty malts because they believe each one will add a different layer of "complexity" to their brew. When in reality it just creates a cloyingly sweet mess.

Kind of like when you try mixing all the paints as a kid to make one super awesome color. And how does that always turn out?
 
I can't speak for new brewers now, but when I started, my only resource was Papazian and the LHBS. I never finished reading Papazian because I wasn't doing all grain at the time so I stopped there. Everything else was trial and error. Yes, I did use too much crystal many times. Even when I first got online in 2000, I didn't think to research homebrewing. I was doing fine, as far as I knew, and didn't even think about research. It wasn't until I started lurking here for a few years that I really learned some things. After some odd years of lurking I finally signed up and started participating and learning more. I even finished Papazian and picked up Palmers How to Brew (still haven't finished it-doh!).
With all the resources available now, there's not much excuse to overuse specialty grains except that old adage about men never reading instructions.
 
I remember going to the LHBS 10 years ago and pretty much the only specialties they would carry were crystal malts, with a few other random things.
 
I'm at the point, almost 2 years into brewing, where I've just about given up on crystal malts in my ipas. That said, I make big beers and I like them dry, so ..
But that's the great thing about homebrew. Make what you like.
but, I seem to have a bit of an attenuation issue as well. But I think think new o2 setup should fix that. I have a bad back and can't shake my spiedel.
 
for newbies, its just a standard. I personally like some of the profiles crystal gets. It pairs nice with rye, IMO. I also use a half pound 40l and a half pound 60l in my oat stout. It just tastes off without those additions. Crystal, like all other specialty malt, has a distinct flavor. And what i like is the variety, 30l tastes different than 60l.

But i get what you are saying. I tend to keep crystal, in the few recipes i us it in, to under 5%. Its the newbs using 10-15% or even 20% that i dont get. I did it when i started, mainly because i would design my recipes around others recipes i would find online. And SO MANY recipes call for lots and lots of crystal. Now i know what diff. styles are, and what flavors diff. malts imbue, so i can design my own without much rumaging around on the web
 
I went through a period where I didn't want to put any crystal malts in my pale ales or IPAs. Every time I had a beer with it in it; it was just too sweet. So I got good a base recipe and switched out the crystal malts for anything else. Munich, vienna, special b, honey malt, esb malt, rye, victory, all the cara branded malts, etc, etc. While I made some pretty darn good beers I still found it to be missing a little something in some of them with the lighter malts; IE rye, cara malts, victory, etc. I added a little crystal malt in addition to the ones just mentioned and I found I got a pretty good beer. So I've learned that crystal malts go much better with malts that aren't as colorful or sweet but malts that do add something else other than that.
Crystal malts can make a beer really good but you have to use them in the right way just like with anything else. I think a lot of extract beers use crystal malts for color and a little bit of body and sweetness so maybe that's why people get stuck on them for all grain brews. If you're brewing all grain there's soooo many different kinds of malts to use out there so maybe experiment with a proven recipe and see if you like any other specialty malts better in a beer that calls for crystal.
 
Bosh said:
Am liking using moderate amounts of darker crystal malts (a little caraaroma goes a long way) combined with a high attenuating yeast to get some nice flavor without the sweetness. Tend to prefer beers like Arrogant Bastard to bone dry IPAs. But yeah, can't stand beers where sweetness dominates.
Click to expand...

I put little (or not so little) Special B in almost everything because I like the taste. I am no beginner so I must be doing it for the same reason, I find super dry, highly hopped beers dull most of the time.

For years my house ale was 40% two-row, 40% Munich, 5% C60 and 3% carapils, 3% whatever I had to give it some color (little chocolate malt usually). Still love my Redneck Pale Ale but then I discovered Special B...
 
bobeer said:
I went through a period where I didn't want to put any crystal malts in my pale ales or IPAs. Every time I had a beer with it in it; it was just too sweet. So I got good a base recipe and switched out the crystal malts for anything else. Munich, vienna, special b, honey malt, esb malt, rye, victory, all the cara branded malts, etc, etc. While I made some pretty darn good beers I still found it to be missing a little something in some of them with the lighter malts; IE rye, cara malts, victory, etc. I added a little crystal malt in addition to the ones just mentioned and I found I got a pretty good beer. So I've learned that crystal malts go much better with malts that aren't as colorful or sweet but malts that do add something else other than that.
Click to expand...

Maybe a stupid question, but aren't cara malts the same as crystal malts? How are they different?
 
cara and crystal are essentially the same, just different malt makers. Also, stuff like vienna and munich also have cara- variations. But they all go through the same basic process to turn them into crystal malts
 
Why do people associate using crystal malt with newbies? If that were true then every homebrewer circa 5-10 years ago was a giant noob. My point being that it is part of the evolution of brewing and of todays style of brews where crystal malt has fallen out of favor, particularly on the west coast.
 
seefish said:
Why do people associate using crystal malt with newbies? If that were true then every homebrewer circa 5-10 years ago was a giant noob. My point being that it is part of the evolution of brewing and of todays style of brews where crystal malt has fallen out of favor, particularly on the west coast.
Click to expand...

Damn straight.
 
Rev2010 said:
Sooo you guys are saying this recipe won't be amazing?:

Caramel Commando (5 gallons)
1lb Pilsner malt (for diastatic power)
3lbs Caramel 60
3lbs Caramel 80
3lbs Caramel 120
2lbs Simpsons Extra Dark Crystal
1oz Hallertauer 3.1% AA (boil 60 minutes)
Mash at 158.

:goat::ban:


Rev.
Click to expand...

Would be great on pancakes!
 
I'm a noob at creating my own recipes so what is considered too much in this case for Crystal malts? 5%? more than that? I love strong ales which seem to use a lot of varying crystal malts from 20 to 120 etc.

As someone said before, for me I think its not having enough experience brewing a specific recipe multiple times to know how .25 lbs of chocolate vs .5 lbs affect the overall taste... or .25 Cara 120 vs .5 Cara 60.

With so many different hops out there also, i'm trying to learn the differences between them by mashing a 10 gallon batch and then splitting it up and boiling each with different hops (amber ale or something) But you can't really do that with the grains - at least not without doing two completely different sessions right?
 
Geronimo13 said:
I'm a noob at creating my own recipes so what is considered too much in this case for Crystal malts? 5%? more than that? I love strong ales which seem to use a lot of varying crystal malts from 20 to 120 etc.

As someone said before, for me I think its not having enough experience brewing a specific recipe multiple times to know how .25 lbs of chocolate vs .5 lbs affect the overall taste... or .25 Cara 120 vs .5 Cara 60.

With so many different hops out there also, i'm trying to learn the differences between them by mashing a 10 gallon batch and then splitting it up and boiling each with different hops (amber ale or something) But you can't really do that with the grains - at least not without doing two completely different sessions right?
Click to expand...

Yes you can, sorta...
Boil a base malt wort with hops then split into different fermentors and add steeped, boiled, and chilled potions of one or more crystal and/or specialty malts to each of those. Keep notes.
For specialty malts that need to be mashed (say Victory), first mash, then boil and chill before adding. The boil times for those potions may vary, but can be as short as 5-10 minutes. You don't want to caramelize them, unless that's what you're after, like Scottish Ales or Barleywines.
 
Yooper said:
I think it comes from software.

What I mean is, like in Beersmith, crystal malt is described so great! Things like "increases body, provides flavor, and color" sound awesome.

That, and color. Someone sees in their software than a red should be a certain SRM, so they add crystal to get to that color projection.

Otherwise, I don't see too many "bad" first time recipes.
Click to expand...

I think some of the problem is that when you look at the item descriptions in Beersmith, it will often give misleading information about how much you can use in a batch of beer. I'm sure the info comes directly from the maltster, but I think the max percentages can be way, way off from what you should use. For instance, the Weyermann Melanoidin pop-up says that it can be used up to 20% in a recipe, which is probably way too much in my opinion for any beer.
 
FarmerTed said:
I think some of the problem is that when you look at the item descriptions in Beersmith, it will often give misleading information about how much you can use in a batch of beer. I'm sure the info comes directly from the maltster, but I think the max percentages can be way, way off from what you should use. For instance, the Weyermann Melanoidin pop-up says that it can be used up to 20% in a recipe, which is probably way too much in my opinion for any beer.
Click to expand...

Like this description of Peat Smoked Malt

Scottish peat smoked malt that has been smoked over burning peat in order to add a dark aroma and flavor characteristic of Islay whisky and some Irish whiskey. Some recent brewers have also included peated malt in interpretations of Scotch ales, although this is generally not considered historically accurate. It has sufficient diastatic power to self-convert. Medium Phenol (10-14). Typically used in the production of Scotch (it is where Scotch gets its smoky flavor from). In the beer isle we would find it primarily used in the production of Scottish Ales and Wee Heavy. In smaller amounts it will add a pleasant smoky aroma and flavor, but don't over do it. If used in excess it will give off a medicinal/band aid character. Usage 2 to 10%.

Avg. Lovibond: 2.5 Country of origin: UK
Click to expand...

Where the usage percentage should really read 0%
 
I figured it had a lot to do with starting out extract. When it comes to steeping the malts you can use are limited to Crystal or roasted. Newbs brewing anything other than Porter or stout probably go nuts with crystal to add their own "flair." Kind of like a new cook over seasoning a dish.

I do have to say a five years ago, when I started, it seemed like every other recipe I looked at had a pound of 60L in it. Dunno if there was a trend or something but it was weird.
 
FarmerTed said:
For instance, the Weyermann Melanoidin pop-up says that it can be used up to 20% in a recipe, which is probably way too much in my opinion for any beer.
Click to expand...

No, it is ok. Just drinking beer with 80% pale and 20% Melanoidin:D
 
I think it's largely becuase extract brewers are repeatedly told that can't use this or that.....that Crystal is their main specialty malt option. I know I was pinned in that corner (but I never used more than a pound in a recipe)...that is until I noticed that my LHBS kit recipes often included the "Un steepable" grains (2 row, vienna, munich, maris otter, other pale ale malts...) And that steeping them made some good beer.
 
Rev2010 said:
Sooo you guys are saying this recipe won't be amazing?:

Caramel Commando (5 gallons)
1lb Pilsner malt (for diastatic power)
3lbs Caramel 60
3lbs Caramel 80
3lbs Caramel 120
2lbs Simpsons Extra Dark Crystal
1oz Hallertauer 3.1% AA (boil 60 minutes)
Mash at 158.

:goat::ban:


Rev.
Click to expand...

You're gonna need to swap that pound of base malt to US 6-row to convert that much crystal malt, and you should look into half a pound to a full pound each of four or five hops you've never tried before to split between the whirlpool and dry hop. Otherwise it's looking good. I take it you're spontaneously fermenting this one?
 
I don't think I put way too much crystal malt in my beers early on, I just always put some in every beer, usually as the only specialty malt unless it was a dark beer. I started as an extract brewer and I'm pretty sure that is why. It is easy to get flavor out of crystal malt without mashing so everyone's first kit has crystal malt and I think it just sticks from there.
 

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