Why do newbies always use so much crystal malt?

[jmcquesten]

Sub'd

 

[Bosh]

You're not cool if you use crystal malt. Apparently.

Well there's a difference between "using" and "having it be 50% of your grain bill"

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Sooo you guys are saying this recipe won't be amazing?:

Caramel Commando (5 gallons)
1lb Pilsner malt (for diastatic power)
3lbs Caramel 60
3lbs Caramel 80
3lbs Caramel 120
2lbs Simpsons Extra Dark Crystal
1oz Hallertauer 3.1% AA (boil 60 minutes)
Mash at 158.




Rev.

Hold on there...throw some brett in there and we may have something.

 

[Brewernaut51]

You're not cool if you use crystal malt. Apparently.

Nah, it's cool. It's like my analogy of a cook over seasoning though. Nobody wants to eat a dish with too much salt in it.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Nah, it's cool. It's like my analogy of a cook over seasoning though. Nobody wants to eat a dish with too much salt in it.

But to further your analogy, some of us have still not seen an instance "too much garlic". In short, unless you are brewing to style like the sheep that you are, use as much crystal as you enjoy in your beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

I have a brand new home beer brewing book on my desk that was published this year (2015) and truly is a very beautiful production. The first section is relatively short and deals with how to get into homebrewing, equipment needed, illustrated with a few simple extract recipes.

The rest and the bulk of the book is comprised of a style-wise approach to all-grain recipes for 1 and 5 gallons. Enticing full page pictures accompanying the recipes want you to brew and drink those beers!

Everything looks great and ready to go... until you look at some of the recipes in more detail. Although they are mostly authentic to their style, and the majority looks good, even innovative, and very palatable, there are definitely some eyebrow raisers. Especially in the light of the quantities of specialty and crystal malts listed. Here are a few of the more curious examples of grain bills.

Dry-hopped Double IPA
10# Pale malt
5# Crystal 20 (33%)

Nut Brown Ale:
7.5# Maris Otter
2.5# Crystal 60
10 oz Crystal 120
1.25# Flaked Wheat
(26% Crystal)

ESB:
8.75# Maris Otter
2.5# C40
10 oz C80
(26% Crystal)

Amber Ale:
5# Pale malt
3.75# C20
1.25# Caramunich
(50% Cara/Crystal)

American Brown Ale:
5# Pale malt
5# Honey malt
1.25# C120
(That's almost 50% Honey malt!)

 

[Brewernaut51]

But to further your analogy, some of us have still not seen an instance "too much garlic". In short, unless you are brewing to style like the sheep that you are, use as much crystal as you enjoy in your beer.

Ooh, touche.

 

[Terek]

I'm a noob at creating my own recipes so what is considered too much in this case for Crystal malts? 5%? more than that? I love strong ales which seem to use a lot of varying crystal malts from 20 to 120 etc.

As someone said before, for me I think its not having enough experience brewing a specific recipe multiple times to know how .25 lbs of chocolate vs .5 lbs affect the overall taste... or .25 Cara 120 vs .5 Cara 60.

With so many different hops out there also, i'm trying to learn the differences between them by mashing a 10 gallon batch and then splitting it up and boiling each with different hops (amber ale or something) But you can't really do that with the grains - at least not without doing two completely different sessions right?

dude, dont listen to some of these. Its your brew, your beer, and your recipe. If you wanna put crystal in, do it. If you like the taste, do it. There is no hard rule to brewing and what to use and how to use it. Thinking like that takes away from the creativity and the sole essence of brewing your own beer. Do what you want. I just brewed a 3 gallon batch that had quite a bit of pine from my xmas tree. Why? Because i felt like it

 

[m00ps]

I have a brand new home beer brewing book on my desk that was published this year (2015) and truly is a very beautiful production. The first section is relatively short and deals with how to get into homebrewing, equipment needed, illustrated with a few simple extract recipes.

The rest and the bulk of the book is comprised of a style-wise approach to all-grain recipes for 1 and 5 gallons. Enticing full page pictures accompanying the recipes want you to brew and drink those beers!

Everything looks great and ready to go... until you look at some of the recipes in more detail. Although they are mostly authentic to their style, and the majority looks good, even innovative, and very palatable, there are definitely some eyebrow raisers. Especially in the light of the quantities of specialty and crystal malts listed. Here are a few of the more curious examples of grain bills.

Dry-hopped Double IPA
10# Pale malt
5# Crystal 20 (33%)

Nut Brown Ale:
7.5# Maris Otter
2.5# Crystal 60
10 oz Crystal 120
1.25# Flaked Wheat
(26% Crystal)

ESB:
8.75# Maris Otter
2.5# C40
10 oz C80
(26% Crystal)

Amber Ale:
5# Pale malt
3.75# C20
1.25# Caramunich
(50% Cara/Crystal)

American Brown Ale:
5# Pale malt
5# Honey malt
1.25# C120
(That's almost 50% Honey malt!)

Dear lord...how many poor souls are going to try and make that double IPA?

 

[IslandLizard]

Dear lord...how many poor souls are going to try and make that double IPA?

Yes, that's the one that caught my eye first. The Campari IPA looks interesting but at the price of a liter of Campari I'd be hesitant to pour 2 or 3 of those in there at bottling time. At least the base recipe for that IPA doesn't use ANY crystal, only Pale and Biscuit. But the Biscuit again is at 20%!

Now I wonder if there's Sorbitol in Campari...

The book is not published by the Brewer's Association (BA) and the author is not known as a brewer. Sam Calagione has his endorsement on the back.

It's a real shame as this is a much larger budget publication than we ever see (Ten Speed Press/Penguin Random House). The photography alone speaks testimony to that. It is intended for home brewers wanting to Brew Better Beer. It makes a wonderful present you want to give.

That said, that copy goes back to the library next week.

 

[MXDXD]

Everything looks great and ready to go... until you look at some of the recipes in more detail. Although they are mostly authentic to their style, and the majority looks good, even innovative, and very palatable, there are definitely some eyebrow raisers. Especially in the light of the quantities of specialty and crystal malts listed. Here are a few of the more curious examples of grain bills.

Dry-hopped Double IPA
10# Pale malt
5# Crystal 20 (33%)

Nut Brown Ale:
7.5# Maris Otter
2.5# Crystal 60
10 oz Crystal 120
1.25# Flaked Wheat
(26% Crystal)

ESB:
8.75# Maris Otter
2.5# C40
10 oz C80
(26% Crystal)

Amber Ale:
5# Pale malt
3.75# C20
1.25# Caramunich
(50% Cara/Crystal)

American Brown Ale:
5# Pale malt
5# Honey malt
1.25# C120
(That's almost 50% Honey malt!)

Well, 26% Crystal in an ESB looks very reasonable, and would probably be okay if the C40 was instead half-and-half Carastan and C10 or C20 (don't get me wrong -- it would be sweet, but it would make sense) when one considers there's +- 40% of Honey Malt (with +- 15% dark Crystal on top of it!) in that American Brown Ale.

 

[Jimbodaman]

I consider my self a noob, I have 10 successful all grain batches under my belt, I'll use up to 2 lbs for a few of my beers, I like sweet malty beers that's why. I've toned it down a bit tho.

 

[marc1]

Yes, that's the one that caught my eye first. The Campari IPA looks interesting but at the price of a liter of Campari I'd be hesitant to pour 2 or 3 of those in there at bottling time. At least the base recipe for that IPA doesn't use ANY crystal, only Pale and Biscuit. But the Biscuit again is at 20%!

Now I wonder if there's Sorbitol in Campari...

The book is not published by the Brewer's Association (BA) and the author is not known as a brewer. Sam Calagione has his endorsement on the back.

It's a real shame as this is a much larger budget publication than we ever see (Ten Speed Press/Penguin Random House). The photography alone speaks testimony to that. It is intended for home brewers wanting to Brew Better Beer. It makes a wonderful present you want to give.

That said, that copy goes back to the library next week.

Is this the Emma Christensen book? I recently went through a whole lot of homebrewing books from the library, and that one stuck out by being beautifully produced and having seemingly enormous crystal additions. Has anyone here made any of the recipes from it?

 

[Stillraining]

I think it comes from software.

What I mean is, like in Beersmith, crystal malt is described so great! Things like "increases body, provides flavor, and color" sound awesome.

That, and color. Someone sees in their software than a red should be a certain SRM, so they add crystal to get to that color projection.

Otherwise, I don't see too many "bad" first time recipes.

I agree... I sent an email to Brad Smith telling him his program is missing a very vital component for new or for that matter any brewer designing their own recipes.
There is no way for a new brewer to know what minimum degrees lintner to shoot for in their total grain bill for proper conversion. I was one of those guilty of wanting to many specialty grains in my grist until I learned about it. Beer Smith could easily incorporate into its program a sliding scale that keeps track of this for you and that would cure much of the mistakes. Its so much more important then say a color scale which all programs seem to incorporate..

 

[IslandLizard]

Is this the Emma Christensen book? I recently went through a whole lot of homebrewing books from the library, and that one stuck out by being beautifully produced and having seemingly enormous crystal additions. Has anyone here made any of the recipes from it?

Yes it is.

Over half the recipes make more sense, or can be modified based on personal preference or experience. It's just that the beginning brewer, the target audience for this book, will not know that and likely end up with overly sweet or malty beer in too many cases. I wonder where the recipes came from and if any were actually brewed, verified, and taste tested.

I really like the layout, presentation, approach, and overall production of the book, among the very best and visually extremely appealing. You can almost taste the beer.

Emma, the author, has a graduate degree in culinary arts, is a recipe editor for a homecooking website, and previously been a beer reviewer for a Columbus, OH newspaper. Her introduction mentions she and her husband have been homebrewing for several years.

 

[hotwatermusic]

Whatevs... You old timers always think you have all the answers!
I'm making my first "AG" beer right now. It's a Crystal120/Citra smash and it's gonna rule!!!

 

[m00ps]

old timer?

also, can you even make beer with a mash that has like zero diatastic power?

 

[bruteforce]

Whatevs... You old timers always think you have all the answers!
I'm making my first "AG" beer right now. It's a Crystal120/Citra smash and it's gonna rule!!!

I think you should go special B/apollo smash personally.

 

[hotwatermusic]

I think you should go special B/apollo smash personally.

Nice!

 

[Rev2010]

old timer?

also, can you even make beer with a mash that has like zero diatastic power?

Probably not something you can call beer by any stretch of the imagination. Probably something called "Yuck, what is this awful sugar water garbage???"

As for noobs though, I think the most common thing I've seen is building recipes with too many ingredients like over-extensive malt bills with 6-7 different grain types for a standard amber ale. Not that there's anything wrong with having an extensive malt bill, just that the newer brewer isn't as familiar with each grain and just tries "Frankenstein'ing it" then later asks why the beer came out tasting horrible.

But honestly, we were all noobs at some point and most of us did at least some wacky shiz, though no I've never done 50+% crystal malt recipes.


Rev.

 

[JKaranka]

Well, 26% Crystal in an ESB looks very reasonable, and would probably be okay if the C40 was instead half-and-half Carastan and C10 or C20 (don't get me wrong -- it would be sweet, but it would make sense) when one considers there's +- 40% of Honey Malt (with +- 15% dark Crystal on top of it!) in that American Brown Ale.

For a strong bitter 26% crystal is way too much. It's not going to finish anywhere near dry enough. Some body and caramel, yes, but more than 10% is overkill. (I could see it in a mild, though).

The only malt I use large amounts of is Brown malt. 15-30% just makes a porter.

 

[FarmerTed]

For a strong bitter 26% crystal is way too much. It's not going to finish anywhere near dry enough. Some body and caramel, yes, but more than 10% is overkill. (I could see it in a mild, though).

The only malt I use large amounts of is Brown malt. 15-30% just makes a porter.

I would say, when in doubt, check out the recipe for a particular style in Brewing Classic Styles, and use the percentages in there as a guideline when creating your own recipe. Jamil has 0.75 lbs in his esb recipe, which works out to just under 6% if you go all-grain. If you want more, doubling the amount may get you where you want, but 26% seems kind of crazy to me. On the other hand, I seem to recall when Anchor Brewing was on the BN Session a year ago, they went over the recipe for their Winter Wheat beer, and said it had something insane like 30% crystal malt in it. (That's probably why I never bought a sixer of it when it was available).

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

Sooo you guys are saying this recipe won't be amazing?:

Caramel Commando (5 gallons)
1lb Pilsner malt (for diastatic power)
3lbs Caramel 60
3lbs Caramel 80
3lbs Caramel 120
2lbs Simpsons Extra Dark Crystal
1oz Hallertauer 3.1% AA (boil 60 minutes)
Mash at 158.




Rev.

I'd try it.. ^.^

 

[ericbw]

Yes, that's the one that caught my eye first. The Campari IPA looks interesting but at the price of a liter of Campari I'd be hesitant to pour 2 or 3 of those in there at bottling time. At least the base recipe for that IPA doesn't use ANY crystal, only Pale and Biscuit. But the Biscuit again is at 20%!

Now I wonder if there's Sorbitol in Campari...

The book is not published by the Brewer's Association (BA) and the author is not known as a brewer. Sam Calagione has his endorsement on the back.

It's a real shame as this is a much larger budget publication than we ever see (Ten Speed Press/Penguin Random House). The photography alone speaks testimony to that. It is intended for home brewers wanting to Brew Better Beer. It makes a wonderful present you want to give.

That said, that copy goes back to the library next week.

What is the book?

 

[JKaranka]

I would say, when in doubt, check out the recipe for a particular style in Brewing Classic Styles, and use the percentages in there as a guideline when creating your own recipe. Jamil has 0.75 lbs in his esb recipe, which works out to just under 6% if you go all-grain. If you want more, doubling the amount may get you where you want, but 26% seems kind of crazy to me. On the other hand, I seem to recall when Anchor Brewing was on the BN Session a year ago, they went over the recipe for their Winter Wheat beer, and said it had something insane like 30% crystal malt in it. (That's probably why I never bought a sixer of it when it was available).

Completely agree: 0-5% crystal malt for strong bitters is more traditional. Bit of invert, dash of brewers' and Bob's your uncle.

 

[aprichman]

Don't a lot of extract kits use higher amounts of steeping grains? I see a lot of pale ale kits with over 1lb of caramel to steep. It could be a carry over from that.

 

[m00ps]

Just read this on Bear Flavored regarding saisons
"Finally, for the love of god: keep your saisons dry. Stick to a simple, clean malt bill. Take any caramel malt you might find laying around your brewery out back, douse it in gasoline, light it on fire, dig a ditch, shovel the remains into the ditch, and fill the ditch with concrete. Then move somewhere else, because your property might now be haunted by caramel malt."

 

[specharka]

Endlessly entertaining thread.

Personally I've found that people err on the side of complexity because they think there's something reputable to put their own creative spin on things. Like, where's the fun in brewing a brown ale when you can make a Maple Honey Nut Raspberry Smoked Gouda Chocolate Almond Ale? It's the same with crystal/cara malts. Why use one ingredient when 20 are available?

If I make a beer with more than 3-5 malts, I really ****ed up.

 

[DromJohn]

OTOH, one of my best brews used 7 malts, 6 hops, maple, muscavado and honey. Fitting with the thread title, two of the malts were 12 oz 60L and 4 oz 120L.

But then it was an attempt to clone Redhook 8-4-1 Expedition Ale which originally was eight brewers making four brews blended into one. Probably each of the four were much simpler.

Both the original and the clone are the best brown ale I've tasted. Wild Heaven Ode to Mercy is my favorite of commercial browns currently available. I'd presume it's grain bill is much simpler.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

And my Floor Sweepin's Brown Ale lead to the development of my favorite Moose Drool'ish beer. The original iteration had small portions of 7 leftover specialty grains totaling about 30% of the grain bill.

The rationalized version had just 4 specialty grains totally about 25%...if you include Vienna as a specialty grain.

 

[Rev2010]

OTOH, one of my best brews used 7 malts, 6 hops, maple, muscavado and honey.

Just to clarify, I intended in no way to suggest that beers with complex grain bills are bad in general, not at all. Was more referring to new brewer's often going too crazy by building uneccessarily complex grain bills for typically simple beers, especially when they're still unfamiliar with the malts they're recipe building with.


Rev.

 

[slym2none]

But honestly, we were all noobs at some point and most of us did at least some wacky shiz, though no I've never done 50+% crystal malt recipes.

This site alone has helped me from doing any wacky shiz... so, a big thank you to everyone here!

 

[henchman24]

I like crystal malts in a lot of recipes (though almost never in a saison or IPA), but they can be overdone really easily. In my early days I made a barleywine that I had an 80/15/5 split of 2 row/various crystals/aromatic malt, and people absolutely loved that beer and keep demanding that I make more. I thought it was alright, but cutting 5 percent out of the crystal and maybe 10-15 out of the 2 row and putting that all towards Munich would have made a much better beer IMO.

A big part of why people tend to overdo it I think stems from bad advice at homebrew shops and the simple availability of the malts. I've heard people say they use 25-30% routinely in their beers... I just imagine them to be overly sweet messes, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[slym2none]

On the other hand, I seem to recall when Anchor Brewing was on the BN Session a year ago, they went over the recipe for their Winter Wheat beer, and said it had something insane like 30% crystal malt in it. (That's probably why I never bought a sixer of it when it was available).

I hate to tell you, but you're missing out. AS's Winter Wheat is really, really good beer, IMHO.

 

[z-bob]

So how much crystal malt do the cool kids use? About 3 to 5% of the malt bill?

I like a little Special B, and I just bought a couple of pounds of caramel wheat and rye to play with. But I really don't know what the guidelines are (other than brew what you like.)

I'm planning to do a saison soon that's 96% pilsner and 4% cara-rye. I know crystal is unusual in a saison.

 

[slym2none]

I use whatever recipe I am following calls for.

 

[henchman24]

Looking back at my recipes... I normally am somewhere in the 2.5-10% range with the higher being less common. ~5% is the most common. I usually mash lower when I get to higher percentages too.

 

[hotwatermusic]

So how much crystal malt do the cool kids use? About 3 to 5% of the malt bill?

I like a little Special B, and I just bought a couple of pounds of caramel wheat and rye to play with. But I really don't know what the guidelines are (other than brew what you like.)

I'm planning to do a saison soon that's 96% pilsner and 4% cara-rye. I know crystal is unusual in a saison.

The cool kids sure as Hell aren't on the internet telling people what to put in their home brew. As a brewer you must make what your customers want. As a home brewer, make what you like.

 

[JKaranka]

I stopped using crystal malts a year and a half ago and my beers improved immediately. I don't miss it at all, plus it simplifies what malts I stock.

 

[JKaranka]

Btw, the only style I can think of that demands crystal malts is American Red. I mainly brew British styles so I don't particularly need it.