Why do newbies always use so much crystal malt?

[IslandLizard]

I'm a noob at creating my own recipes so what is considered too much in this case for Crystal malts? 5%? more than that? I love strong ales which seem to use a lot of varying crystal malts from 20 to 120 etc.

As someone said before, for me I think its not having enough experience brewing a specific recipe multiple times to know how .25 lbs of chocolate vs .5 lbs affect the overall taste... or .25 Cara 120 vs .5 Cara 60.

With so many different hops out there also, i'm trying to learn the differences between them by mashing a 10 gallon batch and then splitting it up and boiling each with different hops (amber ale or something) But you can't really do that with the grains - at least not without doing two completely different sessions right?

Yes you can, sorta...
Boil a base malt wort with hops then split into different fermentors and add steeped, boiled, and chilled potions of one or more crystal and/or specialty malts to each of those. Keep notes.
For specialty malts that need to be mashed (say Victory), first mash, then boil and chill before adding. The boil times for those potions may vary, but can be as short as 5-10 minutes. You don't want to caramelize them, unless that's what you're after, like Scottish Ales or Barleywines.

 

[FarmerTed]

I think it comes from software.

What I mean is, like in Beersmith, crystal malt is described so great! Things like "increases body, provides flavor, and color" sound awesome.

That, and color. Someone sees in their software than a red should be a certain SRM, so they add crystal to get to that color projection.

Otherwise, I don't see too many "bad" first time recipes.

I think some of the problem is that when you look at the item descriptions in Beersmith, it will often give misleading information about how much you can use in a batch of beer. I'm sure the info comes directly from the maltster, but I think the max percentages can be way, way off from what you should use. For instance, the Weyermann Melanoidin pop-up says that it can be used up to 20% in a recipe, which is probably way too much in my opinion for any beer.

 

[Brettomomyces]

I think some of the problem is that when you look at the item descriptions in Beersmith, it will often give misleading information about how much you can use in a batch of beer. I'm sure the info comes directly from the maltster, but I think the max percentages can be way, way off from what you should use. For instance, the Weyermann Melanoidin pop-up says that it can be used up to 20% in a recipe, which is probably way too much in my opinion for any beer.

Like this description of Peat Smoked Malt

Scottish peat smoked malt that has been smoked over burning peat in order to add a dark aroma and flavor characteristic of Islay whisky and some Irish whiskey. Some recent brewers have also included peated malt in interpretations of Scotch ales, although this is generally not considered historically accurate. It has sufficient diastatic power to self-convert. Medium Phenol (10-14). Typically used in the production of Scotch (it is where Scotch gets its smoky flavor from). In the beer isle we would find it primarily used in the production of Scottish Ales and Wee Heavy. In smaller amounts it will add a pleasant smoky aroma and flavor, but don't over do it. If used in excess it will give off a medicinal/band aid character. Usage 2 to 10%.

Avg. Lovibond: 2.5 Country of origin: UK

Where the usage percentage should really read 0%

 

[Brewernaut51]

I figured it had a lot to do with starting out extract. When it comes to steeping the malts you can use are limited to Crystal or roasted. Newbs brewing anything other than Porter or stout probably go nuts with crystal to add their own "flair." Kind of like a new cook over seasoning a dish.

I do have to say a five years ago, when I started, it seemed like every other recipe I looked at had a pound of 60L in it. Dunno if there was a trend or something but it was weird.

 

[krnekdo]

For instance, the Weyermann Melanoidin pop-up says that it can be used up to 20% in a recipe, which is probably way too much in my opinion for any beer.

No, it is ok. Just drinking beer with 80% pale and 20% Melanoidin

 

[Onkel_Udo]

No, it is ok. Just drinking beer with 80% pale and 20% Melanoidin

My TarryTown Rusty brown is 20% Melanoidin and 3% Chocolate...

 

[cjbalough]

I think it's largely becuase extract brewers are repeatedly told that can't use this or that.....that Crystal is their main specialty malt option. I know I was pinned in that corner (but I never used more than a pound in a recipe)...that is until I noticed that my LHBS kit recipes often included the "Un steepable" grains (2 row, vienna, munich, maris otter, other pale ale malts...) And that steeping them made some good beer.

 

[FatDragon]

Sooo you guys are saying this recipe won't be amazing?:

Caramel Commando (5 gallons)
1lb Pilsner malt (for diastatic power)
3lbs Caramel 60
3lbs Caramel 80
3lbs Caramel 120
2lbs Simpsons Extra Dark Crystal
1oz Hallertauer 3.1% AA (boil 60 minutes)
Mash at 158.




Rev.

You're gonna need to swap that pound of base malt to US 6-row to convert that much crystal malt, and you should look into half a pound to a full pound each of four or five hops you've never tried before to split between the whirlpool and dry hop. Otherwise it's looking good. I take it you're spontaneously fermenting this one?

 

[cormano]

I don't think I put way too much crystal malt in my beers early on, I just always put some in every beer, usually as the only specialty malt unless it was a dark beer. I started as an extract brewer and I'm pretty sure that is why. It is easy to get flavor out of crystal malt without mashing so everyone's first kit has crystal malt and I think it just sticks from there.

 

[Brew_G]

You're not cool if you use crystal malt. Apparently.

 

[jmcquesten]

Sub'd

 

[Bosh]

You're not cool if you use crystal malt. Apparently.

Well there's a difference between "using" and "having it be 50% of your grain bill"

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Sooo you guys are saying this recipe won't be amazing?:

Caramel Commando (5 gallons)
1lb Pilsner malt (for diastatic power)
3lbs Caramel 60
3lbs Caramel 80
3lbs Caramel 120
2lbs Simpsons Extra Dark Crystal
1oz Hallertauer 3.1% AA (boil 60 minutes)
Mash at 158.




Rev.

Hold on there...throw some brett in there and we may have something.

 

[Brewernaut51]

You're not cool if you use crystal malt. Apparently.

Nah, it's cool. It's like my analogy of a cook over seasoning though. Nobody wants to eat a dish with too much salt in it.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Nah, it's cool. It's like my analogy of a cook over seasoning though. Nobody wants to eat a dish with too much salt in it.

But to further your analogy, some of us have still not seen an instance "too much garlic". In short, unless you are brewing to style like the sheep that you are, use as much crystal as you enjoy in your beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

I have a brand new home beer brewing book on my desk that was published this year (2015) and truly is a very beautiful production. The first section is relatively short and deals with how to get into homebrewing, equipment needed, illustrated with a few simple extract recipes.

The rest and the bulk of the book is comprised of a style-wise approach to all-grain recipes for 1 and 5 gallons. Enticing full page pictures accompanying the recipes want you to brew and drink those beers!

Everything looks great and ready to go... until you look at some of the recipes in more detail. Although they are mostly authentic to their style, and the majority looks good, even innovative, and very palatable, there are definitely some eyebrow raisers. Especially in the light of the quantities of specialty and crystal malts listed. Here are a few of the more curious examples of grain bills.

Dry-hopped Double IPA
10# Pale malt
5# Crystal 20 (33%)

Nut Brown Ale:
7.5# Maris Otter
2.5# Crystal 60
10 oz Crystal 120
1.25# Flaked Wheat
(26% Crystal)

ESB:
8.75# Maris Otter
2.5# C40
10 oz C80
(26% Crystal)

Amber Ale:
5# Pale malt
3.75# C20
1.25# Caramunich
(50% Cara/Crystal)

American Brown Ale:
5# Pale malt
5# Honey malt
1.25# C120
(That's almost 50% Honey malt!)

 

[Brewernaut51]

But to further your analogy, some of us have still not seen an instance "too much garlic". In short, unless you are brewing to style like the sheep that you are, use as much crystal as you enjoy in your beer.

Ooh, touche.

 

[Terek]

I'm a noob at creating my own recipes so what is considered too much in this case for Crystal malts? 5%? more than that? I love strong ales which seem to use a lot of varying crystal malts from 20 to 120 etc.

As someone said before, for me I think its not having enough experience brewing a specific recipe multiple times to know how .25 lbs of chocolate vs .5 lbs affect the overall taste... or .25 Cara 120 vs .5 Cara 60.

With so many different hops out there also, i'm trying to learn the differences between them by mashing a 10 gallon batch and then splitting it up and boiling each with different hops (amber ale or something) But you can't really do that with the grains - at least not without doing two completely different sessions right?

dude, dont listen to some of these. Its your brew, your beer, and your recipe. If you wanna put crystal in, do it. If you like the taste, do it. There is no hard rule to brewing and what to use and how to use it. Thinking like that takes away from the creativity and the sole essence of brewing your own beer. Do what you want. I just brewed a 3 gallon batch that had quite a bit of pine from my xmas tree. Why? Because i felt like it

 

[m00ps]

I have a brand new home beer brewing book on my desk that was published this year (2015) and truly is a very beautiful production. The first section is relatively short and deals with how to get into homebrewing, equipment needed, illustrated with a few simple extract recipes.

The rest and the bulk of the book is comprised of a style-wise approach to all-grain recipes for 1 and 5 gallons. Enticing full page pictures accompanying the recipes want you to brew and drink those beers!

Everything looks great and ready to go... until you look at some of the recipes in more detail. Although they are mostly authentic to their style, and the majority looks good, even innovative, and very palatable, there are definitely some eyebrow raisers. Especially in the light of the quantities of specialty and crystal malts listed. Here are a few of the more curious examples of grain bills.

Dry-hopped Double IPA
10# Pale malt
5# Crystal 20 (33%)

Nut Brown Ale:
7.5# Maris Otter
2.5# Crystal 60
10 oz Crystal 120
1.25# Flaked Wheat
(26% Crystal)

ESB:
8.75# Maris Otter
2.5# C40
10 oz C80
(26% Crystal)

Amber Ale:
5# Pale malt
3.75# C20
1.25# Caramunich
(50% Cara/Crystal)

American Brown Ale:
5# Pale malt
5# Honey malt
1.25# C120
(That's almost 50% Honey malt!)

Dear lord...how many poor souls are going to try and make that double IPA?

 

[IslandLizard]

Dear lord...how many poor souls are going to try and make that double IPA?

Yes, that's the one that caught my eye first. The Campari IPA looks interesting but at the price of a liter of Campari I'd be hesitant to pour 2 or 3 of those in there at bottling time. At least the base recipe for that IPA doesn't use ANY crystal, only Pale and Biscuit. But the Biscuit again is at 20%!

Now I wonder if there's Sorbitol in Campari...

The book is not published by the Brewer's Association (BA) and the author is not known as a brewer. Sam Calagione has his endorsement on the back.

It's a real shame as this is a much larger budget publication than we ever see (Ten Speed Press/Penguin Random House). The photography alone speaks testimony to that. It is intended for home brewers wanting to Brew Better Beer. It makes a wonderful present you want to give.

That said, that copy goes back to the library next week.

 

[MXDXD]

Everything looks great and ready to go... until you look at some of the recipes in more detail. Although they are mostly authentic to their style, and the majority looks good, even innovative, and very palatable, there are definitely some eyebrow raisers. Especially in the light of the quantities of specialty and crystal malts listed. Here are a few of the more curious examples of grain bills.

Dry-hopped Double IPA
10# Pale malt
5# Crystal 20 (33%)

Nut Brown Ale:
7.5# Maris Otter
2.5# Crystal 60
10 oz Crystal 120
1.25# Flaked Wheat
(26% Crystal)

ESB:
8.75# Maris Otter
2.5# C40
10 oz C80
(26% Crystal)

Amber Ale:
5# Pale malt
3.75# C20
1.25# Caramunich
(50% Cara/Crystal)

American Brown Ale:
5# Pale malt
5# Honey malt
1.25# C120
(That's almost 50% Honey malt!)

Well, 26% Crystal in an ESB looks very reasonable, and would probably be okay if the C40 was instead half-and-half Carastan and C10 or C20 (don't get me wrong -- it would be sweet, but it would make sense) when one considers there's +- 40% of Honey Malt (with +- 15% dark Crystal on top of it!) in that American Brown Ale.

 

[Jimbodaman]

I consider my self a noob, I have 10 successful all grain batches under my belt, I'll use up to 2 lbs for a few of my beers, I like sweet malty beers that's why. I've toned it down a bit tho.

 

[marc1]

Yes, that's the one that caught my eye first. The Campari IPA looks interesting but at the price of a liter of Campari I'd be hesitant to pour 2 or 3 of those in there at bottling time. At least the base recipe for that IPA doesn't use ANY crystal, only Pale and Biscuit. But the Biscuit again is at 20%!

Now I wonder if there's Sorbitol in Campari...

The book is not published by the Brewer's Association (BA) and the author is not known as a brewer. Sam Calagione has his endorsement on the back.

It's a real shame as this is a much larger budget publication than we ever see (Ten Speed Press/Penguin Random House). The photography alone speaks testimony to that. It is intended for home brewers wanting to Brew Better Beer. It makes a wonderful present you want to give.

That said, that copy goes back to the library next week.

Is this the Emma Christensen book? I recently went through a whole lot of homebrewing books from the library, and that one stuck out by being beautifully produced and having seemingly enormous crystal additions. Has anyone here made any of the recipes from it?

 

[Stillraining]

I think it comes from software.

What I mean is, like in Beersmith, crystal malt is described so great! Things like "increases body, provides flavor, and color" sound awesome.

That, and color. Someone sees in their software than a red should be a certain SRM, so they add crystal to get to that color projection.

Otherwise, I don't see too many "bad" first time recipes.

I agree... I sent an email to Brad Smith telling him his program is missing a very vital component for new or for that matter any brewer designing their own recipes.
There is no way for a new brewer to know what minimum degrees lintner to shoot for in their total grain bill for proper conversion. I was one of those guilty of wanting to many specialty grains in my grist until I learned about it. Beer Smith could easily incorporate into its program a sliding scale that keeps track of this for you and that would cure much of the mistakes. Its so much more important then say a color scale which all programs seem to incorporate..

 

[IslandLizard]

Is this the Emma Christensen book? I recently went through a whole lot of homebrewing books from the library, and that one stuck out by being beautifully produced and having seemingly enormous crystal additions. Has anyone here made any of the recipes from it?

Yes it is.

Over half the recipes make more sense, or can be modified based on personal preference or experience. It's just that the beginning brewer, the target audience for this book, will not know that and likely end up with overly sweet or malty beer in too many cases. I wonder where the recipes came from and if any were actually brewed, verified, and taste tested.

I really like the layout, presentation, approach, and overall production of the book, among the very best and visually extremely appealing. You can almost taste the beer.

Emma, the author, has a graduate degree in culinary arts, is a recipe editor for a homecooking website, and previously been a beer reviewer for a Columbus, OH newspaper. Her introduction mentions she and her husband have been homebrewing for several years.

 

[hotwatermusic]

Whatevs... You old timers always think you have all the answers!
I'm making my first "AG" beer right now. It's a Crystal120/Citra smash and it's gonna rule!!!

 

[m00ps]

old timer?

also, can you even make beer with a mash that has like zero diatastic power?

 

[bruteforce]

Whatevs... You old timers always think you have all the answers!
I'm making my first "AG" beer right now. It's a Crystal120/Citra smash and it's gonna rule!!!

I think you should go special B/apollo smash personally.

 

[hotwatermusic]

I think you should go special B/apollo smash personally.

Nice!

 

[Rev2010]

old timer?

also, can you even make beer with a mash that has like zero diatastic power?

Probably not something you can call beer by any stretch of the imagination. Probably something called "Yuck, what is this awful sugar water garbage???"

As for noobs though, I think the most common thing I've seen is building recipes with too many ingredients like over-extensive malt bills with 6-7 different grain types for a standard amber ale. Not that there's anything wrong with having an extensive malt bill, just that the newer brewer isn't as familiar with each grain and just tries "Frankenstein'ing it" then later asks why the beer came out tasting horrible.

But honestly, we were all noobs at some point and most of us did at least some wacky shiz, though no I've never done 50+% crystal malt recipes.


Rev.