Why do newbies always use so much crystal malt?

[Onkel_Udo]

Btw, the only style I can think of that demands crystal malts is American Red. I mainly brew British styles so I don't particularly need it.

Those bloody Yanks and their dragging down of a fine traditions...will it never end!

I actually get the issue of stocking a limited number of malts. My shipping times were never as bad as yours probably are but when I started brewing, our LHBS was only open hours I worked or was in school (online ordering was in its infancy). I kept 50# sacks of 2-row and Munich plus one sack of some specialty grain that usually took three or so years to use up (so I had 3 specialty grains in stock at any one time). Back then, C20-C90 were some of the few available by the sack.

 

[JKaranka]

It makes life a lot easier. I have sacks of pale and brown malt, plus some amber and patent malt. Pale ales (inc. bitters & IPA)? Pale malt and sugar. Porters? Pale and brown malt. Stouts? Pale, brown and patent malt. Stock ales, winter warmers, milds? Pale malt, amber malt and sugar. The only non-British style I make regularly is saison and that's pale malt as well, maybe some sugar as well.

There's so much other staff to play with: water, mash temps, yeast.

You can too easily make the whole trying out different malts into an arms race against yourself as if trying out hops wasn't time consuming enough.

 

[Eschaton_YDAU]

...But I'm a newbie, and I have a recipe I'm thinking about doing that has a fair amount of crystal/caramel in it - for a few reasons.

If anyone wants to weigh in, the post is over here - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=564276

...any advice would be much appreciated!

 

[Kharnynb]

i've used some in a porter, and if i remember right one more beer, both 1 pound or under...i prefer smash or just following recipes.

 

[bobeer]

Maybe a stupid question, but aren't cara malts the same as crystal malts? How are they different?

Cara is just a brand of malts. Carapils, carahells, carared, etc... Most of them can be subbed out for crystal malts. They're not 100% exactly the same but they're close enough for some of them. Some of the cara malts have better aromatics and color IMO but YMMV.

 

[Eoghanie]

Is this the Emma Christensen book? I recently went through a whole lot of homebrewing books from the library, and that one stuck out by being beautifully produced and having seemingly enormous crystal additions. Has anyone here made any of the recipes from it?

I just got this book and was going to try some of the recipes with the crazy amounts of crystal. Same question as above: has anyone tried any of her recipes.

 

[m00ps]

I dunno, 90% of recipes I see in books seem way outta whack to me. Im wondering if they just 100% scaled down from commercial volume and some efficiency stuff gets lost in the mix or what

 

[jonny24]

I've only done 2 extract and 3 AG batches so far, three of those used caramel. I think part of it is that it's pretty easy to understand what they do. "adds colour and some caramel taste" -easy enough. And at the same time doesn't seem specific to a certain style. Munich, Pils, Vienna- if I'm not brewing that style of beer it's harder to know when it's appropriate as a newbie. Of course you can research it but sometimes you gotta just jump in.

Right now I'm planning a series of "almost-smash" ales, using one specialty malt and one hop, to start trying to get a handle on some of the ingredients.

 

[mdennytoo]

Also, if it hasn't been said already, people new to brewing use extracts. Most extracts already have caramel malt in them. If you sort of convert or borrow ideas from an all malt recipe, you should probably drop the caramel additions by half in order not to get a really heavy beer. The magazines do that- newbies see same amount of caramel as the all grain version, usually. And if 8 oz is good, why isn't a pound better? That was something that took me a couple of years to understand. Dales Pale Ale has that rich depth because of pale malt mashed warm over 153f (my guess), not because it has a dump truck of caramel in it.

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

I've only done 2 extract and 3 AG batches so far, three of those used caramel. I think part of it is that it's pretty easy to understand what they do. "adds colour and some caramel taste" -easy enough. And at the same time doesn't seem specific to a certain style. Munich, Pils, Vienna- if I'm not brewing that style of beer it's harder to know when it's appropriate as a newbie. Of course you can research it but sometimes you gotta just jump in.

Right now I'm planning a series of "almost-smash" ales, using one specialty malt and one hop, to start trying to get a handle on some of the ingredients.

Small world, I'm working on that today...

 

[slym2none]

Can't one use another base malt (like Munich or Vienna) in place of a caramel/crystal malt? That's how I have always looked at it when I see recipes that call for (theoretical numbers here) 85% 2-row & 15% Munich. Instead of using a small amount of a 40L malt, they are using a larger amount of a lighter L but "maltier" malt.

Heck, that last batch of Centennial Blonde, I surely didn't need the Carapils, & probably didn't need the C10 since I used 2 pounds of Vienna!

 

[Bosh]

Can't one use another base malt (like Munich or Vienna) in place of a caramel/crystal malt? That's how I have always looked at it when I see recipes that call for (theoretical numbers here) 85% 2-row & 15% Munich. Instead of using a small amount of a 40L malt, they are using a larger amount of a lighter L but "maltier" malt.

Heck, that last batch of Centennial Blonde, I surely didn't need the Carapils, & probably didn't need the C10 since I used 2 pounds of Vienna!

I often just use Vienna and Munich as the base malt. Munich makes for great stout and Vienna is great in pale ales as long as you don't go nuts on other ingredients. 90% Vienna, 4.5% carared, 4.5% victory, 1% caraaroma beer was very popular.

Got 6 kilos of Vienna for an IPA tomorrow and that's it. Should be tasty.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

I often just use Vienna and Munich as the base malt. Munich makes for great stout and Vienna is great in pale ales as long as you don't go nuts on other ingredients. 90% Vienna, 4.5% carared, 4.5% victory, 1% caraaroma beer was very popular.

Got 6 kilos of Vienna for an IPA tomorrow and that's it. Should be tasty.

What do you do for your Munich stout?

 

[Bosh]

What do you do for your Munich stout?

4 kilos very light munich
500 grams pilsner
200 grams dark chocolate
200 grams caraaroma
100 grams roast barley

Came out very very well, might've been even better with US-04 instead of US-05.

Vienna IPA got borked Is a sad tale...

Making Munich-heavy weizen for SWMBO tomorrow...

 

[Rhaop]

my first pale ale recipes used c40 at 20% mashed low and i loved it, as time has gone on over 5years brewing i've scaled back crystal usage a good bit and started subbing in for Munich or other base style malts, it's the progression as a home brewer and how your palate for great beer changes throughout the years i think

 

[A2HB]

I just got this book and was going to try some of the recipes with the crazy amounts of crystal. Same question as above: has anyone tried any of her recipes.

What do you guys think of her insistence on using a secondary as "best practices" in homebrewing? I was a bit dubious of her expertise after I saw that. The book was an interesting read though and as has been said, well produced. I never did get to try any of the recipes in there but if I ever check it out again I might

 

[LBF]

Hey, my one American Amber Ale recipe uses 2# of C-60 and 1# of Special B.......

In an 11 gallon batch.... I was forced to be a bit towards the heavy-handed side of things to try to re-create a beer that I loved, but is no longer made. I'm not convinced that I succeeded, however it has turned out to be tasty so I must have done something right.

 

[slym2none]

Hey, my one American Amber Ale recipe uses 2# of C-60 and 1# of Special B.......

In an 11 gallon batch.... I was forced to be a bit towards the heavy-handed side of things to try to re-create a beer that I loved, but is no longer made. I'm not convinced that I succeeded, however it has turned out to be tasty so I must have done something right.

What was the beer?

 

[slym2none]

I often just use Vienna and Munich as the base malt. Munich makes for great stout and Vienna is great in pale ales as long as you don't go nuts on other ingredients. 90% Vienna, 4.5% carared, 4.5% victory, 1% caraaroma beer was very popular.

@Bosh

This is just a pale ale? I ask because I now have a 2.5G recipe made up using these numbers. Also, what hops did you use?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Bosh]

@Bosh

This is just a pale ale? I ask because I now have a 2.5G recipe made up using these numbers. Also, what hops did you use?

Thanks in advance!

Yup, was an American Pale Ale if a very malty example of the style (but not sweet, US-05 saw to that), came out a nice golden honey color. Used a bittering charge to 30 IBUs and then lots and lots of summit and columbus for a 180 hopstand, mostly to test if doing a big-ass hop stand works for flavor and aroma. Smelled so damn good while flavor was pretty decent but not enough to convince me to use 180 degree hopstands alone for flavor/aroma hopping. Hop flavor was pretty standard American pale ale hop flavor, nothing special or strange.

Brought it to a homebrew meeting and the English guy loved it, said it was a good change of pace from all of the bone dry American pale ales and that he'd be happy drinking only that beer for a year, which is the best praise any of my beers have gotten.

Think the tiny amount of caraaroma really helps, that **** is POTENT.

 

[slym2none]

Awesome, thank you! I will brew this... sometime!

*applause*

 

[Bosh]

Awesome, thank you! I will brew this... sometime!

*applause*

For an alternate hop, try Azacca. Had a similar malty pale ale from a Korean brew pub that was all Azacca and it worked really well, better than my Summit/Columbus. But then Columbus has the wonderful virtue of being cheap.

 

[xgjyuj]

What I mean is, like in Beersmith, crystal malt is described so great! Things like "increases body, provides flavor, and color" sound awesome.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Yeah that's why I brew with 100% crystal!

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

Yeah that's why I brew with 100% crystal!

I may have to get some amylase and do that just to spite the haters. ^.^

 

[ThatVideoKid]

I have thought of doing a tiny batch, with convertase. Or amylase and Brett. Just to see what would happen and how far you could get it down.

 

[drb471]

New recipe idea? ;-)

 

[LBF]

What was the beer?

Erie Brewing Company's "Mad Anthony's Ale"

The first time I had it, they made it as an American Amber Ale. According to the case (which I still have), it was a slightly nutty beer with a generous amount of caramel malt and they used EKG and UK Fuggles for the hops.

Not long after I first had it, they changed it to an IPA (and I'm sure they changed the recipe). Now it's an APA. I've had both the IPA and APA versions and I don't care for either. So far I haven't been able to find anything useful to help steer me in the right direction so I've been kind of poking in the dark to find something approximate. I use Maris Otter for my base, a shot of brown malt, and the C-60 and Special B. Bitter with Northern Brewer and use the EKG and Fuggles at the end.

 

[slym2none]

If you get a recipe nailed down that you like, please post it up for us to see!

 

[LBF]

If you get a recipe nailed down that you like, please post it up for us to see!

Still working on it, got two more attempts at it in the fermenters currently so we'll see how it goes this time.

 

[msa8967]

4 kilos very light munich
500 grams pilsner
200 grams dark chocolate
200 grams caraaroma
100 grams roast barley

Came out very very well, might've been even better with US-04 instead of US-05.

Vienna IPA got borked Is a sad tale...

Making Munich-heavy weizen for SWMBO tomorrow...

Could you post the rest of your recipe. I have 1/2 bag of Munich malt to use and this looks good. Which hops (amounts and times) as well as yeast did you use?

 

[Bosh]

Could you post the rest of your recipe. I have 1/2 bag of Munich malt to use and this looks good. Which hops (amounts and times) as well as yeast did you use?

Sure. For my Munich porter it went like this...

Grains:
4 kilos very light munich (Weyermann Munich, I'm told American munich tastes much different)
500 grams pilsner
200 grams dark chocolate
200 grams caraaroma
100 grams roast barley
With not especially good efficiency due to my crappy set-up.

Hops:
2 oz Northern Brewer and 3 oz EKG at flameout, nothing whatsoever in the boil. Stirred it around for half an hour or so and then put it in cold water in the tub to cool down. Didn't really get much hop character out of that so I'd probably do something else in the future.

For fermentation used rehydrated US-05, kept nice and cool in my cold veranda until the krausen dropped then I brought it inside where it's warm to finish up in my closet before bottling it.

Very very tasty and malty without being sweet due to the US-05 being a great attenuator and it only having 200 grams of crystal malt. Definite deep roast but not really bitter at all so that both my craft brew friends and random neighbors really liked it.

Will make it again with different hop usage and with a US-05/04 split batch but before that I'm going to try to make a stout or porter relying mostly on a ****-ton of carabrown malt, which is a wonderful malt (not crystal malt despite it's name, sort of light brown malt with less bitterness, deep deep deep malty biscuit flavor).

All that's left is one two liter bottle. Will try to keep my wife's friends away from it, but will probably fail, they love the stuff...

 

[BuglessDuster]

I seldom ever use crystal malt. I just made an IIPA with 100% pale malt. I like my IPAs dry, not malty. Mitch Steele of Stone Brewing Co. says he uses about 97% pale malt in his IPAs. He's not a fan of using much crystal malt. He knows more than I do, so I follow his recommendations.

 

[ericbw]

I seldom ever use crystal malt. I just made an IIPA with 100% pale malt. I like my IPAs dry, not malty. Mitch Steele of Stone Brewing Co. says he uses about 97% pale malt in his IPAs. He's not a fan of using much crystal malt. He knows more than I do, so I follow his recommendations.

I'm not a fan of Stone, and maybe that's why. I think IPAs should have enough malt to stand up to the hops, and if it's higher ABV like an IIPA, then it needs even more. A dry IPA doesn't sound good to me, but that's just personal preference.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

I'm not a fan of Stone, and maybe that's why. I think IPAs should have enough malt to stand up to the hops, and if it's higher ABV like an IIPA, then it needs even more. A dry IPA doesn't sound good to me, but that's just personal preference.

Though I completely agree, I see the other side of it as well. If you only goal is celebrate your hop complexity, a dry beer can have a purpose. It has absolutely zero appeal to me but I get it.

I tend toward mild, bitters, scottish ales and sweet stouts so my tendency DOES lean toward using "too much" crystal. Hops are the balance to my maltiness (which is 90% developed by the base and 10% by the specialties).

My redneck pale ale is 27-32 IBU's, x SRM and has a basic outline of the malts used..but is ever-changing basis what is on hand. If I use 50% Munich, I still add 2% special b and 8% C20 or C40. If it is 90% Munich, I go 3-5% special B and the remainder C20 or C40. Etc.

Crystal is not your enemy. Ignorance of its place verses varying the base malt is. Given limited choices (on hand or available) in one base malt can be approximated in correct application of various specialty malts.

 

[BuglessDuster]

I'm not a fan of Stone, and maybe that's why. I think IPAs should have enough malt to stand up to the hops, and if it's higher ABV like an IIPA, then it needs even more. A dry IPA doesn't sound good to me, but that's just personal preference.

His rationale is that in an IIPA, the alcohol itself adds body so he doesn't like the added body and maltiness of using much crystal malt. To me Stone's Enjoy By is almost a perfect beer. There are others, of course, but I'm mainly an IPA guy.

I can't drink a beer like Dog Fish Head's 90 Minute IPA. It's too syrupy to me.

 

[Bosh]

I'm not a fan of Stone, and maybe that's why. I think IPAs should have enough malt to stand up to the hops, and if it's higher ABV like an IIPA, then it needs even more. A dry IPA doesn't sound good to me, but that's just personal preference.

And here I'm a fan of Stone because Arrogant Bastard is deliciously malty.

 

[FatDragon]

And here I'm a fan of Stone because Arrogant Bastard is deliciously malty.

I was in San Diego and went on their brewery tour a couple years ago. They showed us some rows of huge fermenters and said something like, "these are the fermentation vats for our most popular beer, which makes of 70% of our production. I think you all know what beer that is..." and as everyone else in the room yelled out "IPA!" I shouted out "Arrogant Bastard!" Not being from SoCal, I saw Arrogant Bastard in bars and stores more than I saw Stone IPA, and I feel like it's hands-down a better beer than their IPA, so I put two and two together and apparently ended up with five.

 

[Redlantern]

Did first brew with random recipe - just wanted to get my feet wet in brewing. I have heard the term "cloying" used, I found it cidery and that much sweet did not work too well with the hops. For me, it was a great learning experience, because it exaggerated the fault in using too much crystal and I did not have to look for it - it was way too obvious. Still drank it, but learned that like any other ingredient, it has its place and use.

Now - I am finding a balance that works for me. I find that <5% of 40L is a great baseline for an IPA. 60L or greater brings the caramel/toffee flavors I do not care for in an IPA and lighter crystal is sweeter with less substance, like adding sugar to the pint glass before you pour the beer. I mash low and set up my grain bill to yield brew with a gravity of 1.012 or less. The combination of 40L and wheat adds a great body, limited sweetness and yes, a little splash of color that I like. I learned this from deciding to improve on my first batch and learning what I was tasting.

Do not care if others think I am wrong for using it, but crystal is not evil or bad or nasty. It has been developed to a very fine degree as a beer ingredient over many, many decades. It has its place. A place in your beer? Maybe not. Works for me, my way, in mine

 

[Onkel_Udo]

And here I'm a fan of Stone because Arrogant Bastard is deliciously malty.

Arrogant Bastard is personal favorite so I completely get it. Stone IPA left no positive or negative impression on me. I know I have had it but can't remember it.

Someone here mention the Bastard was just base (I believe Pale 2row) and Special B. I can completely believe that. I put Special B in almost everything!