Robust Porter lacks flavor/correct malt flavor... Share some input

[jblank44]

Hey all,

I have brewed a few darker beers on my system (Propane system with HLT, MT, BK). Each time I have brewed them they all seem very bland. They seem to lack the correct coffee, chocolate, bready, malty notes... that porter/stout flavor I desire. I will list my recipe and info recorded during the brew day and see what you guys would think.

Robust Porter
OG: 1.060
PreBoil: 1.042
FG: 1.020
ABV: 5.24%
IBU: 22
Boil duration: 75 min

# Brand Malt SRM
8 Briess Pale Malt 2
4 Briess Marris Otter 3
1 Briess Munich 7
0.75 Briess Pale Chocolate 430
0.75 Briess Crystal 10L 80
0.5 Briess Black Malt 550

Amount Utilization Time Variety AA IBU
0.74 0.211 60 Magnum 12.40% 16.5
1 tab 0.130 15 Whirlfloc
1.01 0.105 15 EKG 6.10% 5.5

Yeast: WLP028 Edinburgh Ale

Adjusted Water Profile
Goal: Ca-120 Mg-10 Na-16 SO4-136 Cl-89 CO3- <50
Actual: CA-132 Mg-11 Na-26 SO4-22 Cl-91 CO3- 102

Mash
Saach Rest at 156 for 90 minutes
pH was 5.2

Fermentation Data
Stage Temp Date OG/Plato
48 Hours Primary Fermentation 67°F 16-Dec 1.060/14.6
Raise to 72 til just at FG 71°F 18-Dec 1.026/6.56
FG Check 71°F 20-Dec 1.022/5.58
Drop to 55 55°F 21-Dec 1.020/5.08
Pull yeast 24 later 55°F
Drop to 38 38°F 24-Dec 1.020/5.08
Keg 1-Jan 1.020/5.0


There are a few things I have in mind:
1) Maybe it's the malt brands? Thought about trying simpson/weyerman
2) The malt crush... i do not have the space for a mill and grain right now so I get it at the LHBS, and it is always pretty fine.
3) Maybe I should be mashing with a little higher pH... 5.4-5.6?
4) The specialty malts maybe should be higher percentages?
5) Maybe I have severe calibration issues with measuring tools... temp gauges, pH probes, etc??

Any help/ideas to help me along the way would be great.

Cheers!

 

[JKaranka]

Just comparing with what I do. I go for a higher IBU for that OG (at least 40), higher SO4, and simpler grist (pale, 15% brown and ~3% patent). I crush at home and get a higher attenuation. I use Crisp malts as they are easy to get and cheap. The pH of 5.2 is surprising but I think you should still get plenty of character through.

Btw, I think you might be onto something when you mention lack of specialty malts as the crystal you use is 10l. I'd expect 60l or so.

 

[jblank44]

Just comparing with what I do. I go for a higher IBU for that OG (at least 40), higher SO4, and simpler grist (pale, 15% brown and ~3% patent). I crush at home and get a higher attenuation. I use Crisp malts as they are easy to get and cheap. The pH of 5.2 is surprising but I think you should still get plenty of character through.

Btw, I think you might be onto something when you mention lack of specialty malts as the crystal you use is 10l. I'd expect 60l or so.

Thanks for the input! The one thing I can think of is if I crush at home I can have a little better crush and probably be better on efficiency and maybe get better extraction of those specialty grains? Maybe since its so fine the specialty malts aren't getting adequate temps to extract their flavors/aromas? Since it is so fine, I get a lot of dough balls and it takes a while to get them out, and it gets stuck fairly often. May go for it and just get a mill and get uncrushed malts from the LHBS.

So when you say pH of 5.2 is suprizing, are you saying too low or that it should have been fine?

I am going to through an Oatmeal stout in soon, have a few others to do first. Brewing a Belgian Brett saison this weekend to put into a french oak barrel

 

[JKaranka]

Hi!

The 5.2 just seems a bit low considering no acid additions and the dark malts being used in moderation. I don't think itsi the culprit, though.

 

[jblank44]

Hi!

The 5.2 just seems a bit low considering no acid additions and the dark malts being used in moderation. I don't think itsi the culprit, though.

Whoops, failed to mention I add 88% Lactic Acid to adjust for mash pH when it isn't in the right range. However, I believe it was about 5.4-5.5 before I adjusted to 5.2. Maybe I should have just left it. I also have a filter for my cold tap water and add potassium metabisulphate to the HLT when filling to try and remove any chloromines/chlorine.

Just ordered a barley crusher and some spacers to give that a try! Might as well.

But the more input the better, want to pinpoint all my process issues.

 

[JKaranka]

Lol, I'm such a genius.

Just give it a go with a bit more hops, tad more roast and a bit darker crystal or brown malt. Then you can skip the lactic. I add a bit of gypsum to get closer to a traditional London profile (my tap water is good but very low in minerals).

 

[thehaze]

Your water definitely needs a bit more Sulphate. There is no real Crystal malt " background " in that beer. The IBUs are kinda low, especially when the beer is malt focused. 30-40 IBUs for anything between 4 and 6% ABV would be fine.

Simpler is better, most times. Maris Otter is fantastic on its own, so stick to it. You need some Cocolate malt and Some Black malt in there. As for the Crystal malts, I like to combine a medium Crystal ( 60L ) with some of the darker ones, like 90 or 150L. All these malts can be found from Crisp Malting, which I know they are a bit cheaper when compared to the more premium english maltsers, but their malts are great.

If you really want a more punchy coffee and chocolate flavour, I would recommend Chocolate Wheat and Chocolate Rye from Weyermann, both being very potent and delicious in darker beers. These malts are huskless, thus it will allow you to use a bit more ( if needed ), without fearing the pungent astringency/roastiness found in a roasted barley variety.

But the rest looks good. The pH might be a bit low, but it will certainly not damage the beer. The water also looks fairly well. So does yeast, fermentation temp., schedule.

 

[jblank44]

Lol, I'm such a genius.

Just give it a go with a bit more hops, tad more roast and a bit darker crystal or brown malt. Then you can skip the lactic. I add a bit of gypsum to get closer to a traditional London profile (my tap water is good but very low in minerals).

Ill get back with how it is... I will be able to use it for a Hazy blonde or farmhouse this weekend so we will see. I sometimes taste some tannin like astringency in my beers so maybe this will fix that as well, probably from all the fine little husks that make it out of the vorlauf/sparge to the BK.

Really appreciate the input!


If any one else has some input, I would love to hear, more voices the better! Thanks!

 

[jblank44]

I think your water needs a bit more Sulphate. The combination of malts is also kinda unbalanced. There is no real Crystal malt " background " in that beer.

Simpler is better, most times. Maris Otter is fantastic on its own, so stick to it. You need some Cocolate malt and Some Black malt in there. As for the Crystal malts, I like to combine a medium Crystal ( 60L ) with some of the darker ones, like 90 or 150L. All these malts can be found from Crisp Malting, which I know they are a bit cheaper when compared to the more premium english maltsers, but their malts are great.

If you really want a more punchy coffee and chocolate flavour, I would recommend Chocolate Wheat and Chocolate Rye from Weyermann, both being very potent and delicious in darker beers. These malts are huskless, thus it will allow you to use a bit more, without fearing the pungent astringency/roastiness found in a roasted barley variety.

Awesome! I will give that a try. My russian imperial stout recipe is layered with more complexity, I believe I have a range of 20, 60, and 120 L to give it a complex sweetness as well with other specialty malts, but never thought to try it here. I will give it a try! You suggest adding a little more crystal then? Maybe .5# 20-40L and .5# 90-120L?

 

[thehaze]

Not really more as in actual amount, but a higher Lovibond Crystal. The 10 L you used is like a Carapils on steroids, which will most likely, not add anything remarkable to the recipe as a whole. The same amount of a 60/90L or a combo of these, will certainly leave more flavours, to balance out the rest of the recipe.

Next time, try to get other dark malts, provided you think the ones from Briess did not really cut it this time. Crisp/Fawcett/Simpsons and even Weyermann and Dingemans, might be a good place to start.

 

[jblank44]

Not really more as in actual amount, but a higher Lovibond Crystal. The 10 L you used is like a Carapils on steroids, which will most likely, not add anything remarkable to the recipe as a whole. The same amount of a 60/90L or a combo of these, will certainly leave more flavours, to balance out the rest of the recipe.

Next time, try to get other dark malts, provided you think the ones from Briess did not really cut it this time. Crisp/Fawcett/Simpsons and even Weyermann and Dingemans, might be a good place to start.

Sounds like a great idea! Thanks for the input!