White Labs lawsuit

[yourlastchance89]

Guys, this is the complaint by the plaintiff. All they have to do is plead facts that give notice to the defendant of the claims they intend to pursue. None of this is evidentiary nor is it necessarily the actual facts.

Its too soon to say it is "not looking good for WL" is to preemptively dismiss what WL has to say, which will be in their response.

@MaxStout one thing that does seem sure is in the possibility this goes to trial, that voir dire will include questioning about homebrewing, lol.

I agree, I was merely stating that the burden of proof, to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that WL did in fact act as the point of origin of LH’s infected batches is a pretty high bar. I am sure they wouldn’t go through with the lawsuit unless they had some form of sufficient evidence behind their complaints. All I am saying is it is hard to overcome that reasonable doubt considering this is brewing where infections do happen on a frequent enough basis on all levels, microorganisms are constantly and universally present throughout the entire Earth, and I am sure WL operates on a similar level of quality control to pharmaceuticals in regards to their products, whereas breweries, while still maintaining an aspect of cleanliness, are not going to be close to that sort of level and more prone for infections. The facts aren’t even out yet so of course this is all surmising, but even so the mere fact WL is being accused of this is a blemish on their reputation regardless. I guarantee anyone buying yeast in the future that views this thread is going to second guess getting it from WL with these events in mind.

 

[MaxStout]

It's a civil case, so "beyond reasonable doubt" is not the standard of review. The standard is "preponderance of evidence," which is a much lower standard of proof. It gets down to whichever side has the stronger argument. The plaintiff (Left Hand) bears the burden of proof. It has to establish all of the elements necessary to show that WL was negligent. Right now all we have is LH's claims, which are only allegations.

As TEB noted, we haven't seen WL's side. There could be a lot more going on here. The rubber hits the road after discovery, when the facts start coming out.

 

[triethylborane]

I agree, I was merely stating that the burden of proof, to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that WL did in fact act as the point of origin of LH’s infected batches is a pretty high bar. I am sure they wouldn’t go through with the lawsuit unless they had some form of sufficient evidence behind their complaints. All I am saying is it is hard to overcome that reasonable doubt considering this is brewing where infections do happen on a frequent enough basis on all levels, microorganisms are constantly and universally present throughout the entire Earth, and I am sure WL operates on a similar level of quality control to pharmaceuticals in regards to their products, whereas breweries, while still maintaining an aspect of cleanliness, are not going to be close to that sort of level and more prone for infections. The facts aren’t even out yet so of course this is all surmising, but even so the mere fact WL is being accused of this is a blemish on their reputation regardless. I guarantee anyone buying yeast in the future that views this thread is going to second guess getting it from WL with these events in mind.

The burden of proof is actually a preponderance of the evidence, which a lesser burden than beyond a reasonable doubt (criminal proceeding standard). MaxStout had this nailed, its going to be a battle of the experts if it goes to trial.

LH has losses and they want to recover those losses. One way to do that is to sue and WL is an obvious defendant given what they supply. Or at least Left Hand believes that WL is sophisticated enough to negotiate with them to mitigate their losses. Complaints get dismissed, not saying that is what will happen here, but its far too soon to write the doom and gloom on WL.

In fact, proudly purchasing some WLP051 for a stout Im going to brew on Friday.

 

[MaxStout]

[deleted by poster] Posted in wrong tab

 

[Cyclman]

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheBrewery...lks_any_experience_testing_for_s_diastaticus/

 

[applescrap]

Went with Holland and Hart for representation, well, they aint the little guy any more lol

Haha, I remeber filling growlers there on the back way home from boulder. Yeah its changed.

Speaking of boulder, it seems there is a lot of love for wl yeast. I heard Chris White on a podcast and he seems a pretty cool likeable guy. My experiences with their yeast have not been overly great. And anecdotally I have heard this from onther brewer. Cant remember who. All imo.

 

[triethylborane]

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheBrewery...lks_any_experience_testing_for_s_diastaticus/

Great find, thanks.

 

[FermentedCulture]

Also this from before: http://discussions.probrewer.com/sh...mentation-in-Packaged-beer-due-to-Diastaticus

And for any breweries who stumble upon this thread via search engines you might be interested in this blog: http://suigenerisbrewing.com/index.php/2017/11/22/contamination-detection-1/

 

[FermentedCulture]

WB-06 is now classified as diastaticus.

edit: information via milkthefunk group in which a member asked and got the latest data sheets from fermentis.

 

[thehaze]

WB-06 is now classified as diastaticus.

Well, that's good to know...

 

[glugglug]

I don’t have the greatest palate. I live only a couple miles from Left Hand. I love their Milk Stout. My favorite from them. I had a pint of that batch in their tasting room, and I said to my wife that it just was not that good that night. Not sure I would have gone the lawsuit route, but I don’t know how much money they lost over it. I’m still a regular there.

 

[yowzers]

I have been on a detailed tour of the brewery and it is one of the trashier looking breweries I've seen. I find it hard to believe that they would not be testing yeast for quality before they added it to their product. If I were running a yeast lab, I would absolutely not sell to these folks anymore after this suit.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I have been on a detailed tour of the brewery and it is one of the trashier looking breweries I've seen. I find it hard to believe that they would not be testing yeast for quality before they added it to their product. If I were running a yeast lab, I would absolutely not sell to these folks anymore after this suit.

The point of the lawsuit is that it is alleged that White Labs weren't testing for this stuff, and a brewery might reasonably take the view that the reason they pay a premium to buy in yeast from places like White Labs is because White Labs are testing for things like this - it's being sold with a guarantee that it doesn't have nasties like this (at least not >1 in a million).

Some breweries take their microbiology very seriously, but you'd be surprised how limited many are on the lab side. White Labs and Wyeast make their money by saying they'll take care of a lot of the stuff that would be done by an in-house lab. Not that it excuses a brewery being lax about it, but on the available evidence, my sympathy is with the brewery in this case.

 

[glugglug]

I have been on a detailed tour of the brewery and it is one of the trashier looking breweries I've seen.

I couldn’t disagree more. But then again I don’t know what breweries you’ve toured. Left Hand is a good brewery and has been around for years for a reason. Just think they got a bad batch of yeast.

But I do agree with what you said about White Labs. I would probably not sell yeast to them after this.

 

[Queequeg]

The problem LH are going to have is they have not tested for diastaticus in the yeast supplied by WL. If you read point 59 they have only tested there final product after conducting their own investigation.

It makes me wonder why you would spend half a million on a PRC from Pal and not test your raw materials, especially since you are trying to root cause the yeast as the issue.

Of course they could have done so and have omitted that information (because it doesn't prove their hypothesis) or they are idiots who don't know who to conduct a proper root cause analysis.