When did craft beer prices “jump the shark”

[Erroneous]

Why do you think beer should be exempt from the huge varieties in quality, styles and variations every other alcohol in existence has?

It's actually always been there, it just wasn't called "craft beer" back then, and not drunk by the masses.

I think it's been pretty common to have beer in a wide variety of prices, though you usually get something tangible when the price is high. Normally it's high when it's more expensive to produce, like barrel aged, long term aging, super hopped, very high gravity, etc. It's hard to speculate why Clown Cup is so expensive, but on their website it says they specialize in Hazy IPA's and Fruited Berliners. I couldn't find the beers posted in OP on their beer release website and it seems like they have a constantly rotating lineup of beers.

In this case I'd guess that their beer is so expensive because the company's model intentionally inflates demand with limited releases and cute names/flavors (maybe trademark issues like with Dexter's Daboratory Concentrate Mastermind Slushy XXL?). I don't think it'd work for long if it wasn't decent tasting. It looks trendy and about like the craft beer version of trading cards. Would I buy it? No. I'm not going to fault someone for being into it though. Find some more local stuff by a brewery that's been around a few years and it'll probably be closer to that $10-12 per 4/6 pack.

 

[McMullan]

Remind me how much the Australian $ is worth? About a fiver? Nice venue, that's not so expensive for a pint. Not as expensive as 9USD/can of clown juice.

 

[deeve007]

I think it's been pretty common to have beer in a wide variety of prices, though you usually get something tangible when the price is high. Normally it's high when it's more expensive to produce, like barrel aged, long term aging, super hopped, very high gravity, etc.

Hey someone who knows what they're talking about!
And spot on!

It's hard to speculate why Clown Cup is so expensive, but on their website it says they specialize in Hazy IPA's and Fruited Berliners. I couldn't find the beers posted in OP on their beer release website and it seems like they have a constantly rotating lineup of beers.

Having done some very high level initial costings on different styles for a brewery startup I'm part of, adjuncts whether they be hops or other more "creative" ones can add substantially to the cost of production depending what it is, so a beer of that style is always going to cost substantially more than a style with less hops and minimal or no other adjuncts. It's why, even while the market demand for these types of "experimental" styles is growing, there is a movement by many breweries to look at seasonal and local adjuncts that can be used, that will keep costs down while still creating flavoursome beers that appeal to the market. It's a constantly evolving landscape, but one that creative brewers love being a part of even as they tear their hair out at times!

But of course you're also correct, there is an aspect of PR and marketing as well, which isn't dissimilar from any product on the planet, alcohol or otherwise. How much will differ brewery to brewery, region to region, with the better quality brewers rising to the top over time.

I'm not going to fault someone for being into it though.

It beggers belief that anyone would.

 

[McMullan]

And seems your only response to anyone with a differing view than your own is to start throwing out the personal insults

What are you on about? More of your random assumptions? I haven't called you anything yet. Not 'out loud' anyway

 

[deeve007]

I think it's been pretty common to have beer in a wide variety of prices, though you usually get something tangible when the price is high. Normally it's high when it's more expensive to produce, like barrel aged, long term aging, super hopped, very high gravity, etc.

Another little insight that might interest you around costs...

A brewery I know very well from Argentina (I lived there for over 5 years) is expanding into Spain and likely Australia (they have history with the latter), in large part as the owners worked out that the costs of production across the 3 regions were not much different, hence the price they could sell for determined how much profit they can make. Hence once they found great success in Argentina and began to make a name for themselves internationally, it was a no brainer for them.

(Yes, labour and rent/property costs are much lower in Argentina, but the equipment and maintenance of that isn't, nor quality ingredients (most imported).)

 

[AlexKay]

To state the obvious, the price will be what the market will bear, or the brewery won't stay in business.

The argument here seems to be "what price should the market bear" which is necessarily pretty subjective (which is probably why the argument is not going places.)

But just to join in, I'll give an example. I'd pay at least $9 a can/bottle for Pliny the Elder. This is probably only slightly more than the retail price if I lived somewhere that actually carried it, and rather less than it would cost to have someone ship me a bottle. I'd consider the price totally worth it ... then again, this is a fantastic beer.

But is this even a comparison? Well, I wouldn't pay $9 a can for some hazy monstrosity from a brewery I've never heard of, but (1) hazy NEIPA is not my thing, but may very much be someone else's, and (2) it's possible that a brewery I've never heard of could be very good indeed. (Bare Hands, a brewery near me that nobody in this thread has likely heard of, sells a fantastic (bitter) IPA, the Westy, that I pay $4-5/can for, and would still buy if they raised the price considerably.)

 

[bwible]

We have one here I noticed recently - Dogfish Head 120 min IPA. There were a limited number of single bottles - not even in cases or holders or anything - sitting on the counter at the supermarket beer checkout for $11.99 a bottle. Regular 12 oz bottle.

But at least that is a double IPA listed at 15-20%, 120 IBU, and is a limited run beer. I’d always seen it but never saw that price before.

 

[deeve007]

But just to join in, I'll give an example. I'd pay at least $9 a can/bottle for Pliny the Elder. This is probably only slightly more than the retail price if I lived somewhere that actually carried it, and rather less than it would cost to have someone ship me a bottle. I'd consider the price totally worth it ... then again, this is a fantastic beer.

I'd pay more if I could get my hands on one!! Had the one someone brought for me once, and it lived up to the hype!

 

[Erroneous]

I found a video review. He says it's a one time release thing (very common to get higher prices with those) and they add a lot of fruit to it, seemingly as a puree. I might not really even consider it beer based on what I'm seeing, but it's fruity, alcoholic, and started as beer.

The highest priced beer I have seen is Sam Adams Utopias. It's a special 28% ABV beer in a fancy bottle, and is perpetually out of stock for $240 for a 750ml at Total Wine. That's about $9.50 per oz. In this case I'd say I'd pay $30 for a 3 oz sample once, but I wouldn't do a full bottle.

 

[McMullan]

 

[davidabcd]

I'm still getting what I like, craft beer-wise, for $4/bottle. I'll go up to $5/bottle. It's a lot but if you were to even look at as regards ABV, not that you should, you'd have cut the price from $4/bottle to $2/bottle. This is referring only to Belgians and Quads pretty much.

 

[Bassman2003]

Breweries have different beer offerings at different price points. I do not see a correlation between offering a $9 beer and their overall business plan. What if the volume of their lower priced beers support the making of the higher priced beers?

If you do not like the style of beer or paying $9 then it is probably best to just say that rather than painting a huge diverse industry with a broad brush. Just sayin'

 

[bwible]

Most of the things I buy would be $10-$11 for a six pack. About $1.70 a bottle.

If you compare that to the 30 pack of Miller High Life for $22.99, the 30 pack works out to about 77 cents each.

 

[deeve007]

It's really not much different from food, some people only want (or can only afford) to buy a McDonalds or equivalent priced meal, while others are happy to pay a little more to experience differing flavours, styles of food, types of food, chef creativity ...etc. And many others in between. Not sure why anyone would think that's a bad thing, even if not your thing?

 

[bwible]

Breweries have different beer offerings at different price points. I do not see a correlation between offering a $9 beer and their overall business plan. What if the volume of their lower priced beers support the making of the higher priced beers?

If you do not like the style of beer or paying $9 then it is probably best to just say that rather than painting a huge diverse industry with a broad brush. Just sayin'

You have different players. The big boys who are putting out beer you can buy for 77 cents a bottle or can vs. the little guy who thinks he’s a player because he bought a $1200 canning machine.

 

[Steveruch]

The last beer I bought was several Sam Adams 12 packs to get the bottles to reuse: $15-16.

 

[Mr. Vern]

$9 for a can of clown juice

Well they did name it clown shoes.

I don't want a spoon sticking straight up in my beer, personally, but some of that stuff taste good even if I have a hard time calling it BEER. I think when you have +50% puree and adjuncts you have left the realm of beer.

It has been found that high priced food and beverage makes the consumer feel or believe that it is a superior product, even if it is not. Blind taste tests have provided insight to this phenomena. We have been aptly trained as consumers.

IMHO: Craft prices jumped the shark when people started following the Bells delivery truck around town for 2 Hopslams like a parade of craft junkies (my Michigan example). It jumped the shark when folks started camping out at breweries for the next "limited release"... then it REALLY jumped the shark with an obnoxious level of "Special Release" or "limited" everything. Very Much like the Oreo flavors with over 100 "specials", marketing knows what drives people.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

The fact of the matter is, in the world of beer, $9/can beers are very very rare. The assumption it's somehow normal is complete nonsense. Please fact-check it. And stop cherry picking to prop-up rediculous claims. Note too if you pay more than $9 for a pint it's actually the venue you're paying for

Have you ever lived in a city? Many places where $9/pint (both at a grocery store and at a bar) for heavily-hopped stuff isn't uncommon.

 

[balrog]

$8/pint not uncommon at restaurants
4pk pints at 3 local breweries are $14-$18
Just one western mass data point.

 

[McMullan]

Breweries have different beer offerings at different price points. I do not see a correlation between offering a $9 beer and their overall business plan. What if the volume of their lower priced beers support the making of the higher priced beers?

If you do not like the style of beer or paying $9 then it is probably best to just say that rather than painting a huge diverse industry with a broad brush. Just sayin'

I didn't pay much attention to the style of the beer, tbh. I don't care what it's claimed to be. It was the cost that cracked me up. And I'm used to buying beer in Norway, one of the most expensive rip-off places in the world. It doesn't matter how people choose to view it, the marketing, hook, line and sinker, $9/can of beer is very far from normal and blatantly an unsustainable business strategy. However slick the marketing. What's becoming quite clear is how much the craft industry are just as devious as the big players. The fact they enjoy claiming otherwise - more slick marketing - kind of makes them a little bit worse, in my mind. In the struggle to survive in an overpopulated market they have to lie more and more to sell small volumes of reinvented beer.

 

[McMullan]

Have you ever lived in a city? Many places where $9/pint (both at a grocery store and at a bar) for heavily-hopped stuff isn't uncommon.

I pay £4-5 a pint for commercial craft beers down the craft bars back home, in the UK. If I'm sat at home I expect to be paying £2-3. Otherwise I'm not buying it. Marketing has very little effect on me.

 

[bracconiere]

A lot (most?) of people commenting in this thread have very little idea of the overall costs, and market demand too apparently.

And really thought home brewers would be a little more open minded...

whatever lube works for you...lidocaine, benzocaine...i can make both if you really want me to.....

edit: but let's face it your at least half way an adult, and realize they got into it dreaming of lambo's and mansions, and are dissapointed it's an honest job...you're going to notice, despite the pain topical analgesic....

 

[Bassman2003]

I didn't pay much attention to the style of the beer, tbh. I don't care what it's claimed to be. It was the cost that cracked me up. And I'm used to buying beer in Norway, one of the most expensive rip-off places in the world. It doesn't matter how people choose to view it, the marketing, hook, line and sinker, $9/can of beer is very far from normal and blatantly an unsustainable business strategy. However slick the marketing. What's becoming quite clear is how much the craft industry are just as devious as the big players. The fact they enjoy claiming otherwise - more slick marketing - kind of makes them a little bit worse, in my mind. In the struggle to survive in an overpopulated market they have to lie more and more to sell small volumes of reinvented beer.

Totally agree and you will not see me paying $9 for a can of beer even if the raw material pricing for the dump truck of hops used is a substantial part of the cost. The level of marketing hype in all areas is getting thick for a lot of products.

 

[bwible]

$8/pint not uncommon at restaurants
4pk pints at 3 local breweries are $14-$18
Just one western mass data point.

Yeah even the macrobrew lagers are $4-$5 at a restaurant. But it’s different to me and I don’t mind paying that if I’m up for a night out. Especially if there’s a band or other entertainment.

 

[bwible]

I pay £4-5 a pint for commercial craft beers down the craft bars back home, in the UK. If I'm sat at home I expect to be paying £2-3. Otherwise I'm not buying it. Marketing has very little effect on me.

At first I was going to say that seems like alot. But I was thinking of the other day when a pound was almost $3 US. This is one of those times when us old people say “the other day” and it could mean last month or 20 years ago.

 

[davidabcd]

Discussing beer prices at a sit down place versus a store is quite different obviously. In a restaurant, I expect pretty high alcohol prices since food has a lower profit margin and alcohol can keep a restaurant in the black. I can't begrudge them that.
That's why I'd focus only on what it costs at the store. The brewery I've gotten packs of beer from is about the same as at the grocery store.

 

[bwible]

If you own a kegerator and you’re looking at buying sixtel kegs, you can definitely save money brewing that yourself.

Total Wine sixtel kegs at the store near me:

Landshark - $67.99
Blue Moon - $75.99
Fat Tire - $85.99
Dogfish Head 60 min - $99.99
Sam Adams Boston Lager - $89.99
Troegs Perpetual IPA - $93.99
Victory Hop Devil - $93.99
Devil’s Backbone Vienna Lager - $84.99
Magic Hat #9 - $79.99
Oskar Blues Dale’s Pale Ale - $85.99

Anybody think they can’t fill a 5 gallon keg for less than that?

Still, since a sixtel is about 50 beers, it works out to about $1.35 per beer at the cheapest for Landshark to $1.99 per beer at the most for Dogfish Head 60 min. I’m just pretty sure we can do better.

 

[brewswithshoes]

$8/pint not uncommon at restaurants
4pk pints at 3 local breweries are $14-$18
Just one western mass data point.

This was more the reference I was making in original post.

I’ve paid $9 for a beer at a restaurant and even at a bar before. It’s just that $9 a can, or actually $36 for a 4 pack from where I go to buy my beer for around the house drinking seems way out of whack.

Should also point out I didn’t buy it, but I did stare at in disbelief for about 4 minutes before snapping the pics.

I don’t want to sound like this original post was insulting anybody, I get that folks like what they are gonna like. And if you like these beers and buy them, good for you. (Hell, I paid $14 for a donut once that was the best thing I ever tasted - so I won’t knock anybody). I just can’t see sustainable operations with this pricing scheme. But I’m no business major or brewery owner either. Good for them if they can continue to do it, I just don’t think I could ever justify that 4pk.

 

[wepeeler]

Maine Brewing company sells their individual bottles in CT for $8.99 and up. Lunch is their staple around here. A single bottle of a single IPA. Often the same price in the bar. I like the beer, but I NEVER buy it. I think they're doing just fine...

Depends on the beer style, the market and how much people really want the beer. Other Half out of NY distributes here now too. But to the tune of $25/4pk and up. That's insane. Every once in a while I'll pull the trigger, but their beer is not worth spending double what I can spend on local beer.

 

[Miraculix]

There's a huge difference between a "random" hop bomb-ish beer being sold for almost ten bucks a can and for example, a really well produced lambic or similar, going for the same price (obviously not in a can) or higher. Also these long term aged high abv beers are a different story. These beers are not mass production "1-2 weeks and out it goes to the customer" type of beers. These beers cost time and time is money.

But if somebody is trying to sell me an apa or ipa or hazy whatever neipa-thingy strawberry infused milkshake and whatnot added "beer" I call it a very fancy ripoff, because this is what it actually is. Feel free to tell yourself that you can justify buying it because of "diversity" (what an overstretched term these days anyway) but it doesn't change the fact that this is a ripoff.

 

[deeve007]

lets assume these guys are getting crappy pricing right now like everyone who's not a major"micro" brewery.

$20/lb for hops, 5lbs per barrel, $100/bbl in hops which is roughly 40c per beer
call it 25c per can for malts and yeast and whatnot
call it a buck a can for 16oz prints (inflation, supply chain issues)
call it another buck a can for mobile canning service. (might be high, rates vary by locale)

so $2.75/pint in "cost", sell to distributor for $5.5
they add about a third, so now its $7.15.
retailer marks it to 9.

thats how you end up paying 8-9 bucks a can for the privilege of drinking rotten fruit with extra hop burn.

This prior post from @SanPancho worth reposting, for those who still believe a $9 can cost is only marketing.
(and I think his retailer markup was on the conservative side)

And if you're genuinely curious, in my experience most small breweries are more than happy to chat about their costs of production to clarify why their beers cost what they do (to those who come across as genuinely curious anyway). It's how I got some idea even before we started our brewery plans (hopefully opening soon!!)

But if somebody is trying to sell me an apa or ipa or hazy whatever neipa-thingy strawberry infused milkshake and whatnot added "beer" I call it a very fancy ripoff, because this is what it actually is. Feel free to tell yourself that you can justify buying it because of "diversity" (what an overstretched term these days anyway) but it doesn't change the fact that this is a ripoff.

But that's because YOU don't value that style of beer. The cost of production is still high, the cost of many of those adjuncts can be significant, as can the extra labor & time required to produce. That's simply a fact, whatever any individual's subjective view of the beer taste and/or style is.

For all higher priced beers? Not at all, but for a lot of them, yes.

 

[Miraculix]

This prior post from @SanPancho worth reposting, for those who still believe a $9 can cost is only marketing.

And if you're genuinely curious, in my experience most small breweries are more than happy to chat about their costs of production to clarify why their beers cost what they do. It's how I got some idea even before we started our brewery plans (hopefully opening soon!!)



But that's because YOU don't value that style of beer. The cost of production is still high, the cost of many of those adjuncts can be significant, as can the extra labor & time required to produce. That's simply a fact, whatever any individual's subjective view of the beer taste and/or style is.

For all higher priced beers? Not at all, but for a lot of them, yes.

It's not about me valuing something. It's about business plans. If you got a beer with a normal turnaround time and you need to sell it for 9 bucks to make it profitable, then your business plan just sucks.

It's as simple as that.

As long as people are willing to pay for it, it will continue. No problem, that's capitalism and good marketing. Even a higher price than average can be good marketing, no fault in that. But justified by production costs? No way, if thought through.

There are countries with ridiculous taxes on alcoholic beverages, let's just leave these out of the discussion. If a Beck's costs ten bucks in Norway, that's a different story.

 

[deeve007]

It's not about me valuing something. It's about business plans. If you got a beer with a normal turnaround time and you need to sell it for 9 bucks to make it profitable, then your business plan just sucks.

It's as simple as that.

And yet many breweries are doing very well doing that, due to the market demanding those kinds of beers.

What should a business do, ignore what the market wants and only brew the cheapest beer possible? To me that would make for a shitty business plan.

I get it, you and many in this thread don't like that type of beer, that's fine. But the facts are those types of beer are in great demand at present, and have been for a while now. It would be ridiculous for anyone producing beer to ignore that demand if they want to stay in business (unless of course their business is mass priduction of the cheapest beer possible, aka the big boys).

But as I wrote, go chat to a small beer producer and get the info from the horse's mouth rather than painting the entire segment in a broad brush, it's a super interesting business segment for mine, always changing and always challenging.

 

[Miraculix]

And yet many breweries are doing very well doing that, due to the market demanding those kinds of beers.

What should a business do, ignore what the market wants and only brew the cheapest beer possible? To me that would make for a shitty business plan.

I get it, you and many in this thread don't like that type of beer, that's fine. But the facts are those types of beer are in great demand at present, and have been for a while now. It would be ridiculous for anyone producing beer to ignore that demand if they want to stay in business (unless of course their business is mass priduction of the cheapest beer possible, aka the big boys).

But as I wrote, go chat to a small beer producer and get the info from the horse's mouth rather than painting the entire segment in a broad brush, it's a super interesting business segment for mine, always changing and always challenging.

Nope, a good Business Plan includes lowering the production costs to the minimum.

This did not happen with a ten buck normal turn around beer.

Please stop saying that I "just don't like these type of beers". I also don't like most high abv beers, but yet I see that there is some value behind the production that needs to be paid for.


These 9 dollar, two weeks production beers are nothing but a ripoff or very badly planned business. Choose the one you feel better with.

 

[Miraculix]

Actually, it's a brilliant business plan as people seem to buy it and even publicly defend it on a public forum without getting anything for it. Kudos to the brewery.

 

[deeve007]

As I wrote, why not go chat with a few actually running breweries and get some insights about the FACTS involved in production costs and challenges, rather than repeating your OPINION that this beer style isn't worth the money to you? All I can convey is what I have learned from a number of them in a few different countries, and from our own early estimates of production costs. Our more limited release "creative" beers won't be for making a larger profit, but simply because the market is demanding them. It would be amiss of us from a business perspective to ignore that as a small brewery looking to gain a foothold in the market.

 

[AlexKay]

Via-a-vis production costs on hop bombs, if you’re actually trying to get the customer a top-quality product, the need for these beers to be fresh — more so than most other styles — is probably a significant expense. I’m not in the business, so I’m guessing here, but a reasonable approach would be (1) refrigeration throughout the distribution chain;
and (2) strict enforcement of a best-by date, pulling old product from the shelves and disposing of it. Neither of these will come cheap.

Is We Make Beerz Brewery actually doing this for their latest hazy wonder? Probably not. Is Russian River (as noted before, I’d happily pay $9/bottle for Pliny) or other well-regarded IPA breweries doing this? I don’t know, but I wouldn’t be surprised.

(Whether it’s the brewer, distributor, or retailer trying to deliver a fresh product is moot; someone is going to have to bear those costs.)

Now, if a brewery you’ve never heard of is charging an arm and a leg for a can of their IPA … well, maybe you’ve got the next Russian River in your backyard, and maybe they’re trying to take you for a quick nine bucks.

 

[madscientist451]

The fact of the matter is, in the world of beer, $9/can beers are very very rare. The assumption it's somehow normal is complete nonsense. Please fact-check it. And stop cherry picking to prop-up rediculous claims. Note too if you pay more than $9 for a pint it's actually the venue you're paying for

Yeah, I agree, checking a beer distributor here in PA I found plenty of 4 packs with beer in the $4.50/$6 per can range (which is still pretty ridiculous IMO) maybe some at $7.50/can, but that's about the top end.
http://kundabev.com/stocklist

 

[seatazzz]

The above discussion notwithstanding, I would bypass that $36/4 pack with a scoff and a hrumph. Yes, it may be the best beer that's ever passed my taste buds; but I ain't paying that. If a brewery is going to spend the $$ to brew enough to can and distribute something that costs that much to produce, they are banking on the presumption that someone out there will buy it at that price, just to prove they can. Beers with that much expensive hops belong in the brewpub/taproom where they can be served super-fresh. I've bought a few high-priced beers in cans at my local shop, and to my (possibly slightly uneducated palate) they hardly ever "wow" me as does a freshly pulled pint. Almost always slightly oxidized, and nothing to write home about. In my (again, slightly biased) opinion, those overpriced 4-packs are aimed at your garden-variety beer snob who has to have the hoppiest, dankest, most overpriced beer in his untappd app to wow his friends. The marketing geniuses behind these overpriced hop bombs know someone is gonna buy them, if only to say they did.

 

[madscientist451]

As I wrote, why not go chat with a few actually running breweries and get some insights about the FACTS involved in production costs and challenges, rather than repeating your OPINION that this beer style isn't worth the money to you?

Production costs are not relevant to the value of "worth" to a consumer. The person who actually takes the money from their pocket and buys something determines what it is worth, not anyone else. Put something valuable on Ebay, you might be surprised what people are willing to pay. Of course, consumers can be influenced by advertising and other factors which in turn changes perception of overall value or lack of value of a product.