What's your favorite honey for mead?

[NeverDie]

The "drip test" isn't really that accurate. It's attempting to tell water content, among other things. Grade A honey has a moisture content below 18.6%. Any less than that doesn't create a more superior product. Any more than that and the honey could ferment, if it isn't pasteurized. My honey is sometimes 16% moisture (it just happens naturally in my area). If I did the drip test with 16% honey and 18% honey, I'd think the 18% was "fake" even though it isn't. If I compared 18% honey with 21% honey that was pasteurized, I'd think the 21% honey is fake, even though it isn't really (although it isn't Grade A and probably shouldn't be sold as honey, but still).

Of course, you could also take "fake" honey and get the moisture content low. It won't drip the same as pure honey, but depending on how think you get it, you may not be able to tell the difference.

I just mention it as a word of caution. All of those tests may indicate that it isn't pure. But it isn't definitive.

Are there any accurate tests that we can do on our own, or is there just no way to know for sure?

 

[NeverDie]

One thing I've wondered about is why I never see apple blossom honey. I live in an apple growing area and during the spring when the trees are blossoming I've seen bee hives scattered around the orchards. I know that beekeepers partner with the orchards to let the bees pollinate the trees, so I would expect that the honey from that would be unique. Yet I've never seen it for sale, even in the local farm markets. I wonder why?

 

[NeverDie]

I have two bottles of the walmart "Pure 'n Simple" Honey. The labels on both are the same, and both claim to be "True Source Certified".

However, what's printed on their caps is different. One says: "18312601 Best By: 11/08/20 Product of USA, BRAZIL, ARGENTINA, INDIA, UKRAINE. U.S. GRADE A"

and the other says "18339601 BEST BY: 12/05/20 PRODUCT OF USA, CANADA, ARGENTINA, INDIA, UKRAINE, VIETNAM U.S. GRADE A" [emphasis added by me]

Oh, great.

So, would it be true to say that the second one could be 99% from Vietnam and have just a few drops from those other countries? Or do the proportions have to be in the order listed? Or, how does it work exactly?

You know, it's noteworthy that this honey is quite a bit less expensive than costco or sam's club honey, and so it does make me wonder just exactly how they are managing to do that. Supposedly Costco has a fixed 17% markup over their cost of goods sold.

 

[NeverDie]

Orange blossom will differ ever so slightly based on which trees are availble and how many other sources of nectar the bees find. Since oranges are not created equal it's reasonable to assume the honeys will reflect that.

Confirmed. Except they taste quite a bit different actually.

To answer my own question, I sourced three different brands of honey, all self-described as "orange blossom":
Burleson's Honey from the local grocery store,
Savannah Bee Company, from the local "central market" gourmet-type store,
and Bee Harmony Honey (American Raw Orange Blossom Honey) from amazon.

They all tasted different! A lot different. The Savannah Bee Company and Bee Harmony Honey tasted the best to me. It would be hard for me to say that one was truly better than the other, even though they tasted different. Also, speaking just for myself, I found Burleson's was a very distant third place--I wouldn't buy it again, even if it were almost free.

So there you have it. The "orange blossom" category doesn't really tell you much. This is noteworthy because it seems very popular with mead makers.

At least so far, the quality of the honey seems remarkably well correlated with its price. It would seem that when it comes to honey, the markets are generally very efficient.

 

[Wanne]

So dumb question...after reading this thread would I be wasting my money if I bought a 60lb bucket of Orange Blossom honey (Monarch) from a restaurant supply company? Would it be garbage honey?

 

[MaxTheSpy]

My Favorite honey is Northwest Valley Wildflower Raw Honey (Oregon local)

Its nice and light but has amazing flavour, and on top of that I get t support local bee keepers and sustain our local economy.

 

[MaxTheSpy]

So dumb question...after reading this thread would I be wasting my money if I bought a 60lb bucket of Orange Blossom honey (Monarch) from a restaurant supply company? Would it be garbage honey?

I dont think that it would be garbage honey, but it almost certainly would be bulk average honey and would not be the best. Part of making mead in my opinion is supporting local bee keepers and farmers. If you have the opportunity I would source local honey and help out the community.

 

[specialkayme]

One thing I've wondered about is why I never see apple blossom honey.

Just because bees visit a flower doesn't mean they make honey from it. Many early blossoms produce very little nectar, but large quantities of pollen. Bees don't turn pollen into honey. Almonds are the best example of that. You can put hives into almond orchards and they come out lighter than when you put them in, meaning they lost weight, despite pollinating all of those flowers.

Other plants produce some nectar, even if it is small, like apples. But the timing of the honey flow (typically early) means the bees use all of the nectar themselves, and you don't have much to extract.

It really takes a heavy nectar flow, at the right time of year, to get much out of it. You can sometimes manipulate the hives to get something, but its rare. A good example of that is blueberry honey.

 

[specialkayme]

Are there any accurate tests that we can do on our own, or is there just no way to know for sure?

Yourself? Not really. You can usually check the ingredients on the label. If it doesn't have ingredients, you better have bought straight from the beekeeper.

Beyond that there are chemical analyses and pollen analyses. But it gets kinda expensive for the meadmaker.

 

[specialkayme]

I have two bottles of the walmart "Pure 'n Simple" Honey. The labels on both are the same, and both claim to be "True Source Certified".

However, what's printed on their caps is different. One says: "18312601 Best By: 11/08/20 Product of USA, BRAZIL, ARGENTINA, INDIA, UKRAINE. U.S. GRADE A"

and the other says "18339601 BEST BY: 12/05/20 PRODUCT OF USA, CANADA, ARGENTINA, INDIA, UKRAINE, VIETNAM U.S. GRADE A" [emphasis added by me]

Oh, great.

So, would it be true to say that the second one could be 99% from Vietnam and have just a few drops from those other countries? Or do the proportions have to be in the order listed? Or, how does it work exactly?

You know, it's noteworthy that this honey is quite a bit less expensive than costco or sam's club honey, and so it does make me wonder just exactly how they are managing to do that. Supposedly Costco has a fixed 17% markup over their cost of goods sold.

TSC doesn't say that it came from one source, or that the source is a good source. It only says they know where it came from. So it could have come from a toxic wasteland, but if they knew it came from there . . . BAM here's your TSC label.

In order to have TSC on the label, you have to have a certain percentage of the product come from a TSC certified location, and they won't certify "high risk" areas like China. Beyond that, they don't care.

As far as percentages between countries, I don't know the answer to that. But I don't think anyone's paying attention to that anyway.

 

[specialkayme]

So dumb question...after reading this thread would I be wasting my money if I bought a 60lb bucket of Orange Blossom honey (Monarch) from a restaurant supply company? Would it be garbage honey?

I wouldn't say it would be garbage. It would probably be Orange Blossom honey. But the question is if you'd like it.

It's common in the honey industry for domestic buyers to request samples. Say I have 200 lbs of Sourwood honey. The buyer will ask me to send a 2 oz or so sample. Depending on the type and the buyer, the'll either just taste it, or they'll send it to have pollen analysis to confirm 51%+ is from Sourwood trees. A higher percentage might yield a higher price (although lately less often). And/or they'll send it to a lab for chemical analysis, to determine if it's adulterated or there are any chemical residues (which happens, rarely but it does, sometimes because a beekeeper is stupid but more often than not the bees gather nectar from places that aren't the best . . .they're scavengers after all, even if they are really good scavengers). If both tests (if they did it) come back good, they'll taste it to confirm if they like it. Sometimes it's true sourced honey that isn't adulterated, but it just tastes like junk (usually due to the soil content of the area where the bees collected their honey, which occasionally will leave iron or other trace minerals in the nectar that end up in the honey and make it taste "different"). Moisture content, humidity, temp all are large factors on the flavor as well. Plus no honey is actually 100% true to source, so what mix it actually is has an impact as well. If it checks all three boxes, the buyer asks how much is left left and negotiates a price.

Sometimes one, two, or all three steps are skipped, depending on the buyer, the need, the market, and the type of honey. An experienced buyer can sometimes check the moisture content of the honey (quick and easy with a refractometer), give it a taste, and through the color and taste be able to tell if it's likely adulterated and likely true sourced. If so, and it tastes good, they buy it without lab analysis. That happens too. But it depends on the type of honey.

Doesn't mean you can't do the same. Although pollen analysis I think runs about $50 or so, chemical analysis is a little more. Doesn't make much sense when you buy 60 lbs. But honey never goes bad (they found honey in Egyptian tombs, literally thousands of years old, and was still good to eat), although it may crystalize and will get darker over time. So buy in bulk and get it tested if you want. Or just taste it and decide if you like it before you buy it. That's what I'd do.

 

[specialkayme]

Part of making mead in my opinion is supporting local bee keepers and farmers. If you have the opportunity I would source local honey and help out the community.

I always find it interesting how honey is viewed in the homebrew world. Homebrewers love the best, freshest, ecologically sourced resources. We avoid box chain stores and big conglomerates to the extent we can. It's all about local, fresh. Until it comes to honey. Then homebrewers want the cheapest junk they can find, and don't mind buying a gallon from Walmart, ordering buckets from Amazon, or want to haggle with a beekeeper over price. It's really kinda weird.

In a given year, I'll put probably a few thousand dollars back into the bees, plus a few hundred hours of work. And it isn't office work. There are some days that I look like I jumped in a pool from sweating, some days I sit back on the couch at the end of a long day and my legs seized up from carrying boxes all over the place, or days my fingers have swollen straight from stings. After all that, some years you just don't get honey, through no fault of your own. The weather just doesn't work in your favor, and the bees don't cooperate. Oh well, that's farming and there's always next year.

After all that, it's difficult to imagine a homebrewer stopping by my house and asking for 2 gallons of honey, and when I tell them it's $8 a pound and they get disgusted, saying "How dare I when Walmart sells it for $3 a pound?" And yet it happens.

 

[MaxTheSpy]

I always find it interesting how honey is viewed in the homebrew world. Homebrewers love the best, freshest, ecologically sourced resources. We avoid box chain stores and big conglomerates to the extent we can. It's all about local, fresh. Until it comes to honey. Then homebrewers want the cheapest junk they can find, and don't mind buying a gallon from Walmart, ordering buckets from Amazon, or want to haggle with a beekeeper over price. It's really kinda weird.

In a given year, I'll put probably a few thousand dollars back into the bees, plus a few hundred hours of work. And it isn't office work. There are some days that I look like I jumped in a pool from sweating, some days I sit back on the couch at the end of a long day and my legs seized up from carrying boxes all over the place, or days my fingers have swollen straight from stings. After all that, some years you just don't get honey, through no fault of your own. The weather just doesn't work in your favor, and the bees don't cooperate. Oh well, that's farming and there's always next year.

After all that, it's difficult to imagine a homebrewer stopping by my house and asking for 2 gallons of honey, and when I tell them it's $8 a pound and they get disgusted, saying "How dare I when Walmart sells it for $3 a pound?" And yet it happens.

I go see 2 local Oregon beekeepers every few weeks and do what I can to help out and buy honey just about every time Im there for brew day. I generally pay 75-80 dollars per gallon of their honey. I dont mind at all paying the extra price for a premium product that people near me have worked so hard to make. They deserve to make a decent living, espeicially when it helps me do what I love to do. Ill also bring them a few of my best bottles from by best batches at the end of the year made with their honey,

Im not sure if they drink it, but it makes me feel like Im doing my part and building relationships.

 

[NeverDie]

After all that, it's difficult to imagine a homebrewer stopping by my house and asking for 2 gallons of honey, and when I tell them it's $8 a pound and they get disgusted, saying "How dare I when Walmart sells it for $3 a pound?" And yet it happens.

Well, if they're happy with the $3/lb honey from walmart, why are they visiting you in the first place? For better quality, or to get a lower price? Just post your prices on your website, and then you won't have to meet those people. Easy.

 

[specialkayme]

Just post your prices on your website, and then you won't have to meet those people. Easy.

Haha. Not even close to true.

I sell with an honor stand on my front yard, through etsy and through my own website. All three have my prices clearly labeled. Every bottle I have is labeled with the price. It's all upfront and very straight forward. And yet some people find me from my website (that says $8), pick up the bottle from the stand, right next to the sign that says "$8", with a price tag that says "$8", turn to me and ask "How much is this?"

My personal favorite was when someone asked how much my honey was. I said $8 a pound. They asked how much a pound was. I told them 16 oz. They asked me how big that was. I said it comes in a one pound jar. They then asked how much that was. I wasn't sure what I was supposed to say. They then asked if it was like a quart or a pint. I told them both of those were units of volume, and honey by law is sold by the weight. They didn't care, they wanted to know what the volume of the honey was. I told them it doesn't work that way. They didn't care. I said screw it, a pound is less than a pint (a pint is roughly 1.5 lbs of honey, depending on moisture content). They said they didn't want a pound, they wanted a pint. I told them I sell by weight, not volume. So they told me they wanted a "pint's worth of weight." Now I just put it in mason jars, label the decimal points worth of weight, and say screw it.

The stupidity of people never ceases to amaze me.

 

[NeverDie]

Haha. Not even close to true.

I sell with an honor stand on my front yard, through etsy and through my own website. All three have my prices clearly labeled. Every bottle I have is labeled with the price. It's all upfront and very straight forward. And yet some people find me from my website (that says $8), pick up the bottle from the stand, right next to the sign that says "$8", with a price tag that says "$8", turn to me and ask "How much is this?"

My personal favorite was when someone asked how much my honey was. I said $8 a pound. They asked how much a pound was. I told them 16 oz. They asked me how big that was. I said it comes in a one pound jar. They then asked how much that was. I wasn't sure what I was supposed to say. They then asked if it was like a quart or a pint. I told them both of those were units of volume, and honey by law is sold by the weight. They didn't care, they wanted to know what the volume of the honey was. I told them it doesn't work that way. They didn't care. I said screw it, a pound is less than a pint (a pint is roughly 1.5 lbs of honey, depending on moisture content). They said they didn't want a pound, they wanted a pint. I told them I sell by weight, not volume. So they told me they wanted a "pint's worth of weight." Now I just put it in mason jars, label the decimal points worth of weight, and say screw it.

The stupidity of people never ceases to amaze me.

The official term for that is "customer contempt." If this is a recurring problem, it seems easy to address. Seems like all you need is some demo props to show what different volumes are and what the weight of your honey would be in those volumes (and consequently what the price would be). You're not selling them a volume. You'd be selling them a weight which happens to have that volume, based on the fixed density of your honey. Bang: problem solved.

 

[specialkayme]

Every customer is confused about something. Literally every customer. Some are confused about weight vs volume. Some are confused about where honey comes from (many think it comes from pollen). Some are confused about what honey is (they think it's bee split). Most are confused about when it's available (most think it's available year round). Some are confused about the process involved in getting honey. Some are confused that honey varies by location. Some are confused about how much work is involved (do you ever get stung?). Some are confused about filtering process, or settling honey, or applying heat, or "raw honey". Some are confused about why you can't get organic domestic honey. Some are confused about the ethical treatment of the bees. Some are confused about . . . . you get my point?

I'd consider you a honey fan, and even you didn't know three quarters of the answers to these questions before you posted this thread. And that's fine, no guilt implied, it's just the reality of the honey industry.

If I spent time trying to solve all of the confusions the customers had, I wouldn't be able to sleep I'd be so busy. And why should I? I sell out of honey every year, and get to basically name my price.

But realistically speaking, most customers don't want to learn. They don't care about 90% of that stuff. They just want sweet honey. Which is fine too.

Don't get me wrong, it sounds like I'm complaining but I'm not. Just commenting. If one person doesn't get or appreciate what's involved, that's cool. No worries. Walmart's down the street. If that makes you happy, I'm happy too. It doesn't bother me in the least. Why? Because I have a waiting list of people that do know, that do care, that do appreciate what's involved. They actually complain that I can't make enough. Which is kinda funny when you think about it.

 

[Brett_Bellmore]

One thing I've wondered about is why I never see apple blossom honey. I live in an apple growing area and during the spring when the trees are blossoming I've seen bee hives scattered around the orchards. I know that beekeepers partner with the orchards to let the bees pollinate the trees, so I would expect that the honey from that would be unique. Yet I've never seen it for sale, even in the local farm markets. I wonder why?

It's sold online. But my understanding is that apples don't produce a lot of nectar compared to some flowers, so the supply is limited.

 

[MaxTheSpy]

The stupidity of people never ceases to amaze me.

Them: Whats Mead
Me: Its fermented honey, water, and sometimes fruits and spices. Its an alcoholic beverage
Them: Whats it taste like
Me:... Tastes like mead, With whatever fruits or spices I add in.
Them: So its a cider?

 

[NeverDie]

Well, FWIW, I won't be buying any more Walmart honey. India borders China, so in my mind it's now as suspect as vietnam is. For all I know the Chinese stuff could be channeled through Ukraine or other countries as well. Who knows? I just don't want to absorb the risk. Even if I'm in experimental mode, I absolutely need to know for certain that the honey I'm using really is honey and not some bizarre counterfeit.

 

[MaxTheSpy]

Well, FWIW, I won't be buying any more Walmart honey. India borders China, so in my mind it's now as suspect as vietnam is. For all I know the Chinese stuff could be channeled through Ukraine or other countries as well. Who knows? I just don't want to absorb the risk. Even if I'm in experimental mode, I absolutely need to know for certain that the honey I'm using really is honey and not some bizarre counterfeit.

The easiest way to do that is to buy from a local beekeeper and start that relationship. When you scale up and start making bigger batches if you and the keeper are friendly, things will be a lot easier, I was able to secure a big batch of honey not only at a discount but also held back for me so others wouldn't buy it when the honey pot got low.

 

[NeverDie]

The easiest way to do that is to buy from a local beekeeper and start that relationship. When you scale up and start making bigger batches if you and the keeper are friendly, things will be a lot easier, I was able to secure a big batch of honey not only at a discount but also held back for me so others wouldn't buy it when the honey pot got low.

Yes. As time permits I'll start looking into it. I think this pretty much rules out all imported honey, including from Mexico and maybe even Canada too. It's just too hard to know for sure where this stuff is really coming from, and the bad stuff all seems to be imported rather than domestic.

 

[MaxTheSpy]

Yes. As time permits I'll start looking into it. I think this pretty much rules out all imported honey, including from Mexico and maybe even Canada too. It's just too hard to know for sure where this stuff is really coming from, and the bad stuff all seems to be imported rather than domestic.

I have had mexican honey, and while it is different its still really really good. I stayed in Costa Rica for 3 months working on a sugar cane plantation and made some mead for the workers there using local honey from our island and it was amazingly good and dirt cheap, think I paid less than 2 US dollars per pound. Made about 10 gallons of it.

 

[Kharnynb]

As said before, I only buy local with honey, don't mind paying a premium for something that's actually honey.

As for manuka honey, there is 1700 tons of manuka honey made per year, and yet 10 000+ tons sold...make of that what you will.

 

[NeverDie]

This article confirms that India is one of the countries that Chinese honey gets shipped through to hide its true origin: https://www.forbes.com/sites/larryo...is-worlds-third-most-faked-food/#7bceb1f84f09

I think it would be wise to avoid all imports altogether, unless you have reason to be sure it's not faked.

Also, apparently calling a honey "Grade A" does not, in practice, mean you're getting honey that meets the definition, because the government allegedly does zero inspections or enforcements, except maybe in response to complaints.

 

[MaxTheSpy]

This article confirms that India is one of the countries that Chinese honey gets shipped through to hide its true origin: https://www.forbes.com/sites/larryo...is-worlds-third-most-faked-food/#7bceb1f84f09

I think it would be wise to avoid all imports altogether, unless you have reason to be sure it's not faked.

Also, apparently calling a honey "Grade A" does not, in practice, mean you're getting honey that meets the definition, because the government allegedly does zero inspections or enforcements, except maybe in response to complaints.

I always thought you wanted grade B honey, Darker and sweeter from what I hear

 

[NeverDie]

Thanks for the tip! Never heard of it before, but now that I have I just now ordered some from amazon so I can give it a try: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007MD76Z0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
A few of the reviewers commented that the company is in Colorado, which is far from where the meadowfoam would be in the northwest, so it may be dodgy. Still, the reviews on it were pretty good anyway.

I received the meadowfoam and gave it a try. This honey is almost like a magic trick: it starts out tasting like regular honey but then fades into an aftertaste of marshmallow. High novelty factor.

 

[NeverDie]

I always thought you wanted grade B honey, Darker and sweeter from what I hear

Not sure if you're making a joke or if you're serious. From what I've read, Grade B honey is inferior, by definition.

 

[NeverDie]

What time of year is there the most honey ready to market by small local honey producers? It seems like farmer's market is one easy way to find them. I found another one that also sells through our local farmers market but maybe there would be even more, perhaps smaller scale beekeepers, at the right time of year. The new one I found is: http://www.austinhoneyco.com/

They also sell on etsy, so they must have collected a lot of honey to still be selling it at this time of year, through all the different channels (including a dozen or so retail stores).

Anyway, $85/gallon (about $7 per pound). I guess that's the going rate, as, IIRC, that's the same as what maxthespy said he paid even in an entirely different geography.

 

[MaxTheSpy]

Not sure if you're making a joke or if you're serious. From what I've read, Grade B honey is inferior, by definition.

Does it have to do with location? same goes with maple syrup in my part of the world, Grade b is darker and has more flavor than the lighter grade A