Water Profile

[A1sportsdad]

So I am going to brew a Bells Oberon clone. If you don't know Bells Oberon, it's a very highly rated American wheat beer. Bells is kind enough to share their recipe, so I know the ingredients they use. They even share the Kalamazoo city water profile, but it looks way off for brewing as is. Even Beersmith shows a warning "Very Malty" for the water profile. I have sent an Email to see if they will tell me what they may do to treat the water for use, but not sure I will get anything from them on that. How do you decide on a water profile to use for brewing. I start with distilled water, so I definitely need to add to it, but I'm not sure what to try to create as the profile. There are a ton of water profiles in Beersmith I could choose, but I am trying to create the clone as close as possible to the original.
Any suggestions on how to proceed?

 

[VikeMan]

In this video, Bell' strongly implies that they use Kalamazoo water as is for Oberon.

 

[A1sportsdad]

In this video, Bell' strongly implies that they use Kalamazoo water as is for Oberon.

Thanks VikeMan. They must at least do an acid adjustment. They water is extremely alkaline. The mix of water and grains according to Beersmith is way above 5.2 for the mash pH. I can make up the Kalamazoo water profile and add some acid to get it in the correct range so it will mash around 5.2 pH.
The Kalamazoo water has a pH of 7.72 and an alkalinity of 286 (CaCO3).
Beersmith always has a field in there for measured pH since the acid adjustment is just an approximation. Does anybody actually have a meter to measure the pH? If so, what are you using and how much did it cost?

Thanks

 

[McKnuckle]

"Way above" 5.2 is what, exactly? 5.2 is actually the low end of the mash pH range. There is some evidence that German wheat beer techniques use a higher pH than what is considered normal for other styles. Have a look at this article and search for "pH." Also review the section entitled 4.2 Brewing water considerations.

 

[A1sportsdad]

"Way above" 5.2 is what, exactly? 5.2 is actually the low end of the mash pH range. There is some evidence that German wheat beer techniques use a higher pH than what is considered normal for other styles. Have a look at this article and search for "pH."

Yes. I said that wrong. The desired range is 5.2 - 5.6, so I would be targetting 5.4 after mash in.

 

[VikeMan]

Does anybody actually have a meter to measure the pH? If so, what are you using and how much did it cost?

I have two meters, both Milwaukee Instruments: MW101 and MW102. I don't remember the costs. I would avoid super-cheap meters like the plague, unless they have passed the stability tests A.J. devised. They are in a thread around here somewhere.

ETA: pH Meter Calibration

 

[A1sportsdad]

Yes. I said that wrong. The desired range is 5.2 - 5.6, so I would be targetting 5.4 after mash in.

Interesting. They talk about a pH around 6.0 for their german weissbier.

 

[A1sportsdad]

"Way above" 5.2 is what, exactly? 5.2 is actually the low end of the mash pH range. There is some evidence that German wheat beer techniques use a higher pH than what is considered normal for other styles. Have a look at this article and search for "pH." Also review the section entitled 4.2 Brewing water considerations.

Interesting. They talk about a pH around 6.0 for their german weissbier. If I make no acid adjustment to the Kalamazoo water profile, my grain bill puts my mash pH at about 5.97 according to Beersmith. Maybe they do use the water as is.

 

[McKnuckle]

Keep in mind that the article talks about some of the behavior being predicated on using traditional wheat beer yeast. So if the Oberon uses an American strain, I imagine some of the points will not fully apply. Complicated, as always, this brewing stuff!

 

[VikeMan]

So if the Oberon uses an American strain, I imagine some of the points will not fully apply.

They use their standard house strain, which is a part of the big "Chico" group.

 

[A1sportsdad]

Keep in mind that the article talks about some of the behavior being predicated on using traditional wheat beer yeast. So if the Oberon uses an American strain, I imagine some of the points will not fully apply. Complicated, as always, this brewing stuff!

Yes, they have their own yeast, but it is classified as an American Ale Yeast.

 

[A1sportsdad]

I have two meters, both Milwaukee Instruments: MW101 and MW102. I don't remember the costs. I would avoid super-cheap meters like the plague, unless they have passed the stability tests A.J. devised. They are in a thread around here somewhere.

ETA: pH Meter Calibration

I just ordered the MW102 and the solutions. Thanks.

 

[1HW]

I just ordered the MW102 and the solutions. Thanks.

Good choice. One point to keep in mind re mash pH readings. The meter has temperature correction (i.e., a separate temperature probe) that will normalize your pH readings to room temp (68°F). Most of us mistakenly assume then that we can measure mash pH at mashing temps (e.g., 150°F) and then the meter will give us a corrected reading for the temp. This is only halfway true however.

The temperature correction is a device-specific correction. It corrects for the fact that pH devices will misread the pH as a function of temperature. The correction allows scientists (and now home brewers) to all have a stable baseline to compare across (i.e., so we can compare apples to apples).

Having said that, temperature itself can influence pH. That is, for some chemical reactions, temperature will change the real pH of the solution. This is independent of the way you measure the pH. It's not a device problem. It's life. Mashing is one of those chemical reactions for which temperature changes the actual pH of the mash. At higher temps, your mash pH will truly be lower (e.g., 5.2) than when it cools to room temp (e.g., 5.5). This will happen whether you bother to measure it or not. The temperature correcting pH meter doesn't know what you're sampling. You could be putting the probes in your wort, or your hot tub, or some chocolate milk. And so it doesn't know how to correct temperature for true chemical reactions.

Long story short, you should measure your mash pH at room temp even when you are using a temperature-correcting meter.

 

[1HW]

I start with distilled water, so I definitely need to add to it, but I'm not sure what to try to create as the profile. There are a ton of water profiles in Beersmith I could choose, but I am trying to create the clone as close as possible to the original.
Any suggestions on how to proceed?

I wouldn't build a water profile with such high bicarbonate only to overcome it with acid additions to bring the mash pH to its happy place. If you want the mash pH in the sweet spot, I would just build the water profile with lower HCO3. That said, if they truly use a high alk profile, it would be curious to know how it turns out if brewed as is... sounds like a fun experiment for you try both ways...

 

[VikeMan]

Having said that, temperature itself can influence pH. That is, for some chemical reactions, temperature will change the real pH of the solution. This is independent of the way you measure the pH. It's not a device problem. It's life. Mashing is one of those chemical reactions for which temperature changes the actual pH of the mash.

Temperature definitely affects pH. But it's not because there's something special about mashing. The pH of any solution is affected by temperature. Even plain water pH changes with temperature.

 

[1HW]

Temperature definitely affects pH. But it's not because there's something special about mashing. The pH of any solution is affected by temperature. Even plain water pH changes with temperature.

Totally agree. But it doesn't do so in linear fashion across all solutions, and so the meter can't know how to make this real-world correction. The meter's temperature correction is a mechanical correction related to how the device measures pH. If you never measured pH, you would never need to make this mechanical correction. But, as you point out, temperature will still influence real pH in any solution.

I only bring this up because it's natural to expect that when a measuring device says it does temperature correction it means that we can measure at any temp and call it good.

 

[Spivey24]

Having said that, temperature itself can influence pH. That is, for some chemical reactions, temperature will change the real pH of the solution. This is independent of the way you measure the pH. It's not a device problem. It's life. Mashing is one of those chemical reactions for which temperature changes the actual pH of the mash. At higher temps, your mash pH will truly be lower (e.g., 5.2) than when it cools to room temp (e.g., 5.5). This will happen whether you bother to measure it or not. The temperature correcting pH meter doesn't know what you're sampling. You could be putting the probes in your wort, or your hot tub, or some chocolate milk. And so it doesn't know how to correct temperature for true chemical reactions.

Long story short, you should measure your mash pH at room temp even when you are using a temperature-correcting meter.

Not to take this into a pH discussion, but... One thing that is never clear, even in Palmer’s book, is that the pH recommended range of 5.2-5.6 is the room temperature corrected range, right? Even though the actual PH is different at mash temperature?

As far as how they brew, maybe they use an acidified malt. You didn’t post the recipe you are using so not sure how precise they identify the grains they use.

 

[MN brewer]

FWIW I’m drinking a two hearted ale clone. I adjusted to Kalamazoo water, seems spot on to me. Been working on a Kalamazoo Stout clone and use their water profile. Have to have mash temp for a single infusion mash at 157.5 to get the ABV from OG of 1.065. Lower temps lead to higher ABV. I wonder if that ties into the temp effect on pH. I also emailed Bells and they were kind enough to give me the grain bill for Kalamazoo Stout. I’ll probably brew Oberon soon after. I guess that makes me a Bells tribute brewer...

 

[IslandLizard]

Not to take this into a pH discussion, but... One thing that is never clear, even in Palmer’s book, is that the pH recommended range of 5.2-5.6 is the room temperature corrected range, right? Even though the actual PH is different at mash temperature?

The pH recommended range of 5.2-5.6 is the mash pH measured at room temps. Not read at mash temps and corrected.

 

[VikeMan]

Lower temps lead to higher ABV. I wonder if that ties into the temp effect on pH.

Not really. pH does vary by temperature, when measured at that temperature. The "room temperature" pH would be pretty much the same regardless of the mash temps.

 

[mabrungard]

There are reasons to mash at a slightly high pH for a weissbier, but do not think that it’s the end of the story. Good weiss breweries mash at a higher pH and then acidify the boiled wort at the end of the boil.

So mashing in the mid to upper 5 range and then acidifying the boiled wort into the low 5 range is a good way to produce great weissbier.

 

[IslandLizard]

There are reasons to mash at a slightly high pH for a weissbier, but do not think that it’s the end of the story. Good weiss breweries mash at a higher pH and then acidify the boiled wort at the end of the boil.

So mashing in the mid to upper 5 range and then acidifying the boiled wort into the low 5 range is a good way to produce great weissbier.

Good to know!

While we're on Weissbier, is there also an advantage to mashing those really thick, such as at 1qt/lb? I've seen those instructions/suggestions.

 

[mabrungard]

One advantage could be that a thick mash enables you to conduct an all-important ferullic rest and then add a boiling water infusion to step to the beta or alpha range.

I don’t know of another advantage.

 

[Maxkling]

FWIW I’m drinking a two hearted ale clone. I adjusted to Kalamazoo water, seems spot on to me. Been working on a Kalamazoo Stout clone and use their water profile. Have to have mash temp for a single infusion mash at 157.5 to get the ABV from OG of 1.065. Lower temps lead to higher ABV. I wonder if that ties into the temp effect on pH. I also emailed Bells and they were kind enough to give me the grain bill for Kalamazoo Stout. I’ll probably brew Oberon soon after. I guess that makes me a Bells tribute brewer...

157?

 

[Maxkling]

157?

Never mind, I see now you were talking about the stout not the IPA.

 

[A1sportsdad]

FWIW I’m drinking a two hearted ale clone. I adjusted to Kalamazoo water, seems spot on to me. Been working on a Kalamazoo Stout clone and use their water profile. Have to have mash temp for a single infusion mash at 157.5 to get the ABV from OG of 1.065. Lower temps lead to higher ABV. I wonder if that ties into the temp effect on pH. I also emailed Bells and they were kind enough to give me the grain bill for Kalamazoo Stout. I’ll probably brew Oberon soon after. I guess that makes me a Bells tribute brewer...

Did you add acid to get it down into the normal pH range?

 

[MN brewer]

Did you add acid to get it down into the normal pH range?

I followed the grain bill and instructions for their two hearted all grain home brew kit. I didnt measure pH, but all the talk finally pushed me to buy one so going forward I will know. They didn’t add acid so I didn’t. Harvested their yeast from Oberon. Someone showed in another string the instructions that came with the kit differed a bit from what was online, but minor differences like dry hopping day 7 instead of 5. It’s really good, seems right on to me.

 

[MN brewer]

Never mind, I see now you were talking about the stout not the IPA.

Is that more typical of stout? Seemed to be the only thing that would get the published ABV from their OG of 1.065. Brewers licorice in the mail, will be the next brew for me.

 

[A1sportsdad]

I followed the grain bill and instructions for their two hearted all grain home brew kit. I didnt measure pH, but all the talk finally pushed me to buy one so going forward I will know. They didn’t add acid so I didn’t. Harvested their yeast from Oberon. Someone showed in another string the instructions that came with the kit differed a bit from what was online, but minor differences like dry hopping day 7 instead of 5. It’s really good, seems right on to me.
View attachment 701184

I might add some acid to adjust the pH. Beer Smith says my mash pH with Kalamazoo water will be about 6. Think I will try to drop it down into the normal range.

 

[MN brewer]

I might add some acid to adjust the pH. Beer Smith says my mash pH with Kalamazoo water will be about 6. Think I will try to drop it down into the normal range.

Does beer smith hit OG, FG, and ABV without acidification? Does it change anything if you drop the pH? I plug Kalamazoo water into brewers friend and my Oberon clone recipe there hits all the numbers dead on.

 

[A1sportsdad]

Does beer smith hit OG, FG, and ABV without acidification? Does it change anything if you drop the pH? I plug Kalamazoo water into brewers friend and my Oberon clone recipe there hits all the numbers dead on.

It hits the numbers, but it has a comment “very malty”.

 

[MN brewer]

Even their clone hazy ipa has Kalamazoo water listed with the recipe for reference. Hard to believe they wouldn’t adjust for that brew but who knows. Wasn’t that impressed with it when I tried it, but you never know how old it is, also in a can. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[mabrungard]

Stop referring to the misleading ‘malty’ or ‘bitter’ terms for anything to with the sulfate/chloride ratio. The more factual terms are ‘full’ or ‘dry’. But the more important message is that the ratio can be meaningless at low concentrations.

A mashing pH of 6 is not going to produce a great beer. You really do need to make amendments to bring pH down. However, it may not require an acid addition if you’re mineralizing the water with a lot of calcium salts.

 

[A1sportsdad]

For reference, this is the Kalamazoo water profile.

 

[mabrungard]

Kamal Zoo water is fairly mineralized. It’s to the point that care needs to be used to avoid adding some ions.

 

[MN brewer]

Stop referring to the misleading ‘malty’ or ‘bitter’ terms for anything to with the sulfate/chloride ratio. The more factual terms are ‘full’ or ‘dry’. But the more important message is that the ratio can be meaningless at low concentrations.

A mashing pH of 6 is not going to produce a great beer. You really do need to make amendments to bring pH down. However, it may not require an acid addition if you’re mineralizing the water with a lot of calcium salts.

Well, bells two hearted won best beer in America...did u see the video above from bells that they say they use Kalamazoo water for Oberon?

 

[A1sportsdad]

Well, bells two hearted won best beer in America...did u see the video above from bells that they say they use Kalamazoo water for Oberon?

I saw the video. Unfortunately it doesn’t answer the question if they treat it or use it as is. I’m guessing they treat it.

 

[VikeMan]

I saw the video. Unfortunately it doesn’t answer the question if they treat it or use it as is. I’m guessing they treat it.

It's true that the video doesn't explicitly state that they treat or don't treat the water for Oberon. But from an added minerals perspective, I interpreted the words as implying that they don't. If I had to guess, I'd guess they are probably acidifying it (with a direct acid addition).

 

[cire]

It's true that the video doesn't explicitly state that they treat or don't treat the water for Oberon. But from an added minerals perspective, I interpreted the words as implying that they don't. If I had to guess, I'd guess they are probably acidifying it (with a direct acid addition).

Definitely treated with acid.

The water profile given in post #34 is very similar to many water supplies in England. Here alkalinity would be reduced using sulphuric acid, hydrochloric acid or CRS, the latter a mix of the two forme acids.

Alkalinity as CaCO3 would be typically reduced to circa 15 ppm for pale beers, 20 to 50 ppm for those with crystal malt additions such as bitters, while darker beers including porters and stouts could have as much as 100 ppm.

Such water treatment is very simple to apply and makes excellent beers.

 

[storunner13]

FWIW I’m drinking a two hearted ale clone. I adjusted to Kalamazoo water, seems spot on to me. Been working on a Kalamazoo Stout clone and use their water profile. Have to have mash temp for a single infusion mash at 157.5 to get the ABV from OG of 1.065. Lower temps lead to higher ABV. I wonder if that ties into the temp effect on pH. I also emailed Bells and they were kind enough to give me the grain bill for Kalamazoo Stout. I’ll probably brew Oberon soon after. I guess that makes me a Bells tribute brewer...

@MN brewer -- how did the Kalamazoo stout turn out? Can you share the recipe? I finally want to get around to brewing a clone of my favorite stout sometime this year.