Water and brewing

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Im going for the RO system

Yeah go for it if you can. It is probably the wisest and safest route indeed.
I mean every situation is different. We are fortunate to have very good quality tap water here (no chlorines in it, for instance). So my only concern in that respect is having to deal with generally high and fluctuating levels of water alkalinity.
I live in an apartment with my family, space is an issue and a RO unit would just be another piece of abstruse homebrewing equipment that I would have to justify .
The point I wanted to make is that if one is willing to invest a bit of effort in understanding some basics, in many cases it is very well possible to tweak one's own tap water to good and consistent results (even if said tap water is far from optimal for brewing as it is).

Ive been working on this water report and turns out a lot of information is on the website but i could not get anything on the minerals; calcium, magnesium and pottasium.
I also used a converter which im not sure is correct but i multiplied the caco3 (85) by 0.6 which should result im my co3(carbonate).. maybe im wrong but these are the figures i have if anyone can tell me if it looks like water report substancial enough for tweaking.
Also i will use a ph tester to clarify the ph is correct!

Water grade: soft
Caco3 85
Bicarbonate 105.7
Carbonate 51
Sulphate 27
Chloride 13
Nitrate 3
Nitrite 0.016
Flouride 0.6
Sodium 8
Iron 12
Ph 7.5
Potassium na
Magnesium na
Calcium na

The bottom three are making it difficult to play around with brun water

Which ones of these numbers were on your original water report, and which ones did you derive?
(I am no expert in water chemistry by far, but I can try to help with my limited self taught knowledge on the subject. If one of the real experts on this forum is willing to chime in, they are more than welcome!)

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The CO3 (Carbonate) species barely exists at pH 7.5. It would confidently be <1 mg/L.

If your Total Hardness "as CaCO3" is reported as 85 mg/L, then the following relationship must be upheld:
Total Hardness as CaCO3 = 2.4973(Ca++) + 4.11796(Mg++)
85 = 2.4973(Ca++) + 4.11796(Mg++)

Therefore:
If we 'ballpark' presume that 70% of total hardness is 'on average' derived from Ca++, and 30% is derived from Mg++, then:
85 x 0.70 = 59.5
85 x 0.30 = 25.5

Thus 'ballpark' Ca++ = 59.5/2.4973 = 23.8 mg/L
And 'ballpark' Mg++ = 25.5/4.11796 = 6.2 mg/L

If your Bicarbonate is reported as 105.7 mg/L, your Alkalinity (as CaCO3) is likely going to be right close to 86.6 mg/L

Applying these values, the all important "Cation/Anion balance" (the demand for electrical charge neutrality) is not met sufficiently enough to give your water the potential to exist in the "real world". What are the units associated with the 12 you showed for Iron? Let us pray that they are not 12 mg/L. Is it possible that your water is blended from more than one source and the values are merely averages across the various sources?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Hardness is the measure of combined MgCO3 (Magnesium Carbonate), and CaCO3 (Calcium Carbonate). But for convenience they are by convention conflated into CaCO3 only, and are reported as such (I.E., Total Hardness as CaCO3).

The molecular weight of CaCO3 is 100.0869
The molecular weight of the Ca++ ion is 40.078
The molecular weight of the Mg++ ion is 24.305

Therefore, the Ca++ ion percent of CaCO3 by weight is 40.078/100.0869 = 0.400432, and the inverse of this is 2.4973
And likewise the Mg++ ion percent of CaCO3 by weight is 24.305/100.0869 = 0.242839, and the inverse of this is 4.11796

So from this we derive that:
Total Hardness as CaCO3 = 2.4973(Ca++) + 4.11796(Mg++)

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Alright, you have got one of the experts I was talking about right here.
Thanks @Silver_Is_Money for saving me, I am more than happy to leave the space to you

He has helped me immensely with those formulas and other infos in a thread I had started on this subject long ago.

 

[cire]

The CO3 (Carbonate) species barely exists at pH 7.5. It would confidently be <1 mg/L.

If your Total Hardness "as CaCO3" is reported as 85 mg/L, then the following relationship must be upheld:
Total Hardness as CaCO3 = 2.4973(Ca++) + 4.11796(Mg++)
85 = 2.4973(Ca++) + 4.11796(Mg++)

Therefore:
If we 'ballpark' presume that 70% of total hardness is 'on average' derived from Ca++, and 30% is derived from Mg++, then:
85 x 0.70 = 59.5
85 x 0.30 = 25.5

Thus 'ballpark' Ca++ = 59.5/2.4973 = 23.8 mg/L
And 'ballpark' Mg++ = 25.5/4.11796 = 6.2 mg/L

If your Bicarbonate is reported as 105.7 mg/L, your Alkalinity (as CaCO3) is likely going to be right close to 86.6 mg/L

Applying these values, the all important "Cation/Anion balance" (the demand for electrical charge neutrality) is not met sufficiently enough to give your water the potential to exist in the "real world". What are the units associated with the 12 you showed for Iron? Let us pray that they are not 12 mg/L. Is it possible that your water is blended from more than one source and the values are merely averages across the various sources?

Yes, but what if the amount given for CaCO3 is not of hardness, but alkalinity? OK, alkalinity is quoted as bicarbonate and that isn't 85 ppm CaCO3, but is close and it isn't unusual for water reports to quote both measures with minor discrepancies.

In other respects, that report looks realistic. 8 for sodium and 13 for chloride match perfectly for a sodium chloride content. Then by speculating 27 sulphate was from gypsum, there would be a further 11 ppm calcium and there would be ion balance.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yes, but what if the amount given for CaCO3 is not of hardness, but alkalinity?

I was initially confounded by this also, but If you go up to post #2 in this thread and open the attachment you will see that 85 mg/L of CaCO3 corresponds to hardness as opposed to alkalinity.

That Alkalinity at 86.6 mg/L and Hardness at 85 mg/L are nearly the same values is thus merely coincidental.

 

[cire]

Ah! Thank you, Larry.

That means that water is as you say, impossible without the presence of an unknown cation. That wouldn't be iron at 12 ppm, such water would have a lot of color.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Ah! Thank you, Larry.

That means that water is as you say, impossible without the presence of an unknown cation. That wouldn't be iron at 12 ppm, such water would have a lot of color.

Precisely why I said we must literally pray that iron is not 12 ppm. I initially gave thought to iron at that level providing for the requisite cation/anion balance. Waiting on the reply/confirmation from @Jamie02173.

I'm leaning more toward this water being multi sourced, with the reported analyticals being merely averages across sources.

 

[Jamie02173]

Thanks for the help silver i have been messing around with brud water and the iron value of 12 has been causing me problems! I checked the water report again and the iron content and it was measured at ug/l rather then mm/l
Im only new to this myself but i will read over your comments a few times and it will click!
Thanks for the help im making progress so some slight adjustments should produce a better beer while i look into an RO system.
Any suggestions on what i might add to this water for better results

 

[Jamie02173]

Precisely why I said we must literally pray that iron is not 12 ppm. I initially gave thought to iron at that level providing for the requisite cation/anion balance. Waiting on the reply/confirmation from @Jamie02173.

I'm leaning more toward this water being multi sourced, with the reported analyticals being merely averages across sources.

Some of the quantities of this report are based on averages for example if my sulphite was between 26 to 28, then i stuck it down as 27 as a yearly report is the best i could find. The caco2 is stated as 85 therefore i derived the Hc03 from that and i was probably wrong with my calculation of co3
So its mainly my carbonate, calcium, magnessium and pottasium which im thinking silver has answered for me!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Any suggestions on what i might add to this water for better results

I'm not big on "water profiles" so I'm not the best one to be asked this question. Calcium Chloride for sure, and some acid to reduce the alkalinity.

 

[Jamie02173]

I'm not big on "water profiles" so I'm not the best one to be asked this question. Calcium Chloride for sure, and some acid to reduce the alkalinity.

Thats ok i will play around with these figures on brud water as ill have to figure it out myself but just double checking incase i do something wrong along the way!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I haven't guessed on the Potassium (K+) ion yet, but if forced to guess, I'd guess 1 to 2 mg/L.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

While playing with other software, feel free to also give mine a spin. Free and complete. Just download and run in Excel or LibreOffice Calc.

 

[Jamie02173]

I haven't guessed on the Potassium (K+) ion yet, but if forced to guess, I'd guess 1 to 2 mg/L.

Cool so just to be sure!!
Carbonate =1 mg/l
Calcium = 23.8 mg/l
Magnesium = 6.2 mg/l
Phosphorus = 1/2 mg/l
Iron = 1mg/l
As the iron is 12ng/l im assuming its a much lower value

 

[Jamie02173]

While playing with other software, feel free to also give mine a spin. Free and complete. Just download and run in Excel or LibreOffice Calc.

Definatly ill give it a go thanks

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Cool so just to be sure!!
Carbonate =1 mg/l
Calcium = 23.8 mg/l
Magnesium = 6.2 mg/l
Phosphorus = 1/2 mg/l
Iron = 1mg/l
As the iron is 12ng/l im assuming its a much lower value

Consider Carbonate and Iron to be zero mg/L.

Phosphorus at either 1 or 2 mg/L is purely my guess, with no basis for it other than the rest of the ions being low.

 

[Jamie02173]

Definatly ill give it a go thanks

Maybe im doing something wrong here lol

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Lactic Acid is typically 80% or 88%. It appears that you have it at 1%.

 

[NSMikeD]

Also should i consider thechniques for removing chlorine before brewing?

Check with your RO system. They usually come with pre-filters that remove chorine and chloramines.

 

[A1sportsdad]

I don’t trust that my city water will always agree with the water reports. I prefer a consistent, blank slate. I use distilled water and build up to the water profile I want for each batch. At 89 cents a gallon I can afford to purchase the distilled water.

 

[NSMikeD]

I don’t trust that my city water will always agree with the water reports. I prefer a consistent, blank slate. I use distilled water and build up to the water profile I want for each batch. At 89 cents a gallon I can afford to purchase the distilled water.

A reliable portable RODI system with an inline TDS meter can be gotten for less than $100. Saves one the hassle of lugging gallons of water home each time you want to brew.