Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[Toxxyc]

4 hour boil - Here's to hoping the sugars aren't caramelized too much and you'll reach a nice FG.

 

[sweetcell]

4 hour boil - Here's to hoping the sugars aren't caramelized too much and you'll reach a nice FG.

i've haven't heard of long boils leading to fermentation issues... i've boiled barleywines for several hours and had good FGs, so hopefully all goes well here.

a quick search for "sugar caramelization temperature" reveals that the process has minimum temps in the 300's... so my 210*F boil (due to altitude) shouldn't have caused any caramelization.

 

[VikeMan]

4 hour boil - Here's to hoping the sugars aren't caramelized too much and you'll reach a nice FG.

i've haven't heard of long boils leading to fermentation issues... i've boiled barleywines for several hours and had good FGs, so hopefully all goes well here.

a quick search for "sugar caramelization temperature" reveals that the process has minimum temps in the 300's... so my 210*F boil (due to altitude) shouldn't have caused any caramelization.

For a variety of reasons, it has been endlessly debated whether or not caramelization can happen in boiling wort. My best guess is that if it does, it's probably not significant.

But Maillard Reactions (which are often loosely (and technically incorrectly) referred to as caramelization) do happen in boiling wort for sure. While a four hour boil will doubtless result in a slightly darker wort (even after adjusting for volume) due to the Maillard products (specifically melanolidins) produced, I don't think the amount of Maillard Reactions are enough to transform enough of the fermentable sugars to make a huge difference in fermentability.

 

[Beer666]

Has anyone tried the Crossmyloof Hells lager yeast? Recomended fermentation temperature is between 13c and 23c. About to crash a pale lager fermented at 18c so will let you know. Just kegged a cold fermentation and its crisp and dropped clear after 4 days crashing with finings. Also got my normal 90% attenuation. Its also cheap. Just over a tenner for 6 packs delivered first class.

 

[Miraculix]

Has anyone tried the Crossmyloof Hells lager yeast? Recomended fermentation temperature is between 13c and 23c. About to crash a pale lager fermented at 18c so will let you know. Just kegged a cold fermentation and its crisp and dropped clear after 4 days crashing with finings. Also got my normal 90% attenuation. Its also cheap. Just over a tenner for 6 packs delivered first class.

I bet it is 3470... or maaaaybe diamond lager.

 

[LokiM4]

Has anyone tried the Crossmyloof Hells lager yeast? Recomended fermentation temperature is between 13c and 23c. About to crash a pale lager fermented at 18c so will let you know. Just kegged a cold fermentation and its crisp and dropped clear after 4 days crashing with finings. Also got my normal 90% attenuation. Its also cheap. Just over a tenner for 6 packs delivered first class.

Link?

I’ve not heard of it, or seen it at any of my normal suppliers …

 

[Miraculix]

Link?

I’ve not heard of it, or seen it at any of my normal suppliers …

It is a UK thing, small repacker that sells brand name yeast under different names for very cheap. Good stuff.

 

[LokiM4]

It is a UK thing, small repacker that sells brand name yeast under different names for very cheap. Good stuff.

 

[Beer666]

So i was mistaken its actually 12 ro 21c not 23. Specs below.

HELL. Bottom Fermenting Berlin Pilsner Yeast.

Suitable for rounded German lagers
Attenuation: 76-82%

Flocculation: High
Fermentation: ideally 12-21°C (54-70°F)
Max ABV 9% in 20 litres @ 21°C- Pitching Rate: 75g/100 litres
(It’s preferable to double pitch @ 12°C)

INGREDIENTS:Yeast (Saccharomyces pastorianus), emulsifier E491

Link for purchasing

Personally i dont think its 34/70 as the specs so that say 12 to 15c but i could be wrong. Looking forward to tasting my warm ferment lager next week next week.

 

[Toxxyc]

Well, 34/70 has been warm fermented really well up to ale temps. It's fairly easy to say it'll do fine at 21, specially if you pitch it at 12.

 

[MHBT]

Warm fermented lager is a oxymoron, its not a lager if fermented warm its at best lagerish

 

[applescrap]

I recently saw a post elsewhere claiming that lagers need to be lagered because they are fermented cold. The person said that if you ferment warm with W-34/70, you don't need to lager your beer.

I've fermented in the 60sF/15-20C maybe four or five times, and it's needed lagering every time. I wanted to ask the serial warm-fermenters here about their experiences and opinions. Does warm-fermented lager really not need to be lagered?

They improve with aging in my experience. But I have also been known to drink a wf lager, warm and force carbed . I heard on a podcast cant remember his name, maybe chris white from white labs? say after he makes a lager he sticks carboy in fridge till he can see through it. I think this would be a good practice for a better lager. Peaking at that point.

 

[Beermeister32]

Warm fermented lager is a oxymoron, its not a lager if fermented warm its at best lagerish

Warm fermented lager is known as Steam Beer. It has been around a long time, and was used a lot in the 1800’s Old West prior to refrigeration. Beer made with lager yeast, but fermented at ale temperatures. Also known as California Common Beer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_beer

 

[Toxxyc]

Warm fermented lager is a oxymoron, its not a lager if fermented warm its at best lagerish

No, it's a lager if it was made with a lager yeast, in other words, saccharomyces pastorianus instead of saccharomyces cerevisae (ale yeast).

 

[Miraculix]

No, it's a lager if it was made with a lager yeast, in other words, saccharomyces pastorianus instead of saccharomyces cerevisae (ale yeast).

And also if it is not

(See wlp 800)

 

[Toxxyc]

See now I'm just confused.

 

[Miraculix]

See now I'm just confused.

Welcome to the Club! Come in, have a Cookie.

It's nice in here and we all know that we don't know.

 

[VikeMan]

And also if it is not

(See wlp 800)

See now I'm just confused.

WLP800 is genetically S. cerevisiae. But it acts like S. pastorianus in the ways that are important to brewers. Many Best of Show awards have been won with lagers brewed with WLP800, at typical lager fermentation temps. I trust someone will let us know as soon as that happens with warm fermented lagers (with S. pastorianus) or with pseudo-lagers (with "normal" S. cerevisiae ale strains) at any temp.

 

[Yesfan]

No, it's a lager if it was made with a lager yeast, in other words, saccharomyces pastorianus instead of saccharomyces cerevisae (ale yeast).

And also if it is not

(See wlp 800)

See now I'm just confused.

Welcome to the Club! Come in, have a Cookie.

It's nice in here and we all know that we don't know.

WLP800 is genetically S. cerevisiae. But it acts like S. pastorianus in the ways that are important to brewers. Many Best of Show awards have been won with lagers brewed with WLP800, at typical lager fermentation temps. I trust someone will let us know as soon as that happens with warm fermented lagers (with S. pastorianus) or with pseudo-lagers (with "normal" S. cerevisiae ale strains) at any temp.

Now do Baltic Porter............

 

[BoilerInSoCal]

Hey all, thanks for your contributions to this great thread! I embarked on my first warm lager a two weeks ago. I went with a Mexican lager recipe that I used last summer, but switched out the yeast (subbed 34/70 for WLP940, since it appears 940 doesn't do as well at the warmer temps). Fermentation at 65F was complete in about 5 days. I didn't have time to keg before I left on vacation a few days later, so I turned the temp down to 40F, dumped most of the yeast and let it sit at 40F for the week I was gone. I added gelatin as soon as I got back and kegged today. It was still quite cloudy (as expected), but the first tastes going into the keg tasted great (my recipe uses all Motueka, so you get the hint of lime without needing the actual wedge!) I'm going to let it set for at least a week before trying again, but I'm excited that this method may free up my CF10 in just a week going forward.

The last YVH hop box was full of German hops, so I'm excited to try out a Pils next. Seems like 34/70 will work well for that, too.

 

[BQ&W]

Warm fermented lager is a oxymoron, its not a lager if fermented warm its at best lagerish

If I use lager yeast, I call it lager. If I use ale yeast, I call it ale.
Sometimes I just call it "beer" That works, too!

 

[bwible]

I may have asked this before. Does anybody have any information about Wyeast 2035 and whether it could be fermented warm? Low 60s like 34/70. I thought I recalled somebody saying 2035 was related to 34/70. Thanks

 

[bwible]

Warm fermented lager is known as Steam Beer. It has been around a long time, and was used a lot in the 1800’s Old West prior to refrigeration. Beer made with lager yeast, but fermented at ale temperatures. Also known as California Common Beer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_beer

Agree but the point here is people are trying to approximate lager without having the 50-55 degree temp controlled space “just for primary fermentation.” This isn’t really steam beer and steam beer is not the intent.

The german word “lager” means “to store.” Lagers are stored or aged cold. Is steam beer aged cold? Steam beer is also supposed to feature Northern Brewer hops. At least the Anchor version.

People are trying to approximate lager beer with regular lager recipes - only doing the primary fermentation warm (low 60s as opposed to the 53 degrees) because they don’t have that temp controlled space. 34/70 yeast produces good results with this method. Then after fermentation the resulting beer is aged cold, 35 degrees or so. I do mine for a month. Following the normal lager process except for the colder primary fermentation because of lack of equipment. Thats what this thread is about.

 

[Red over White]

Here in the southern US where the AC almost doesn't turn off all summer, putting a fermenter over a floor vent with a large moving box over both (with a vent cut near the top) will easily keep a fermenter stable in the high 50's. There is 50°F air coming coming out the vents in the summer, if you can harness it, it's worth checking out. Cheers

 

[Beermeister32]

All very true. From a historical perspective, that’s what they were trying to do in the 1800’s with Steam Beer. To make the best lager beer they possibly could using Lager yeast, but with the limitations of not having refrigerated fermentation control. Same thing.

We walk in the footsteps of giants….

 

[sweetcell]

*sigh*...

"lager" beer may or may not require the following:

1. lager yeast
2. cool primary fermentation
3. cold storage/aging/clarification
4. traditional lager recipe (only or almost only pils, noble hops, low-mineral water, etc.)

depending on how much of a purist/history nut/anal retentive you are, you may require all or only some of the above to make a "lager". the general ethos of this thread is that #1 is required and #2 isn't. if this foundational belief is offensive to you, you will probably be happiest if you look elsewhere for your lagering discussion needs

personally, i'm a heathen who believes that only s. pastorianus is required to call a beer "lager". i also believe that sanctimonious discussion on what is or isn't "lager" makes for circular (read: boring) discussion. YMMV, and as this thread shows it almost certainly will

 

[Yesfan]

I'm pretty traditional and @sweetcell's last post kind of nails it for me. At the very least, 1&2 on his list is what I think of when I think of a lager. That being said, the last thing you'll see me do is brow beat someone over the head with my mash paddle if they think otherwise. If it's a good drinking beer, that's all that matters to me in the end.

Different pitches for different b!tches.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Have any of you guys read the first post, seriously

 

[Sam_92]

Thank you guys! In the original spirit of this thread I have a pilsner that has bottle conditioned for two weeks and probably needs one more but it is simply divine. Fermentation was around 65° F with 34/70 and it was only in there two weeks. It is already brilliantly clear and the yeast stays calm at the bottom of the bottle until the very last of the beer is poured out. I must admit it is out of style guide lines because I used American hops and the taste of high alpha hops is very present. I like the taste of American hops though and I refuse to apologize for breaking all the rules, I think they're kind of silly anyway. Historically brewers haven't given a damn about styles, they brew the best beer with ingredients they can get, and that sells the best. /rant

 

[sweetcell]

Different pitches for different b!tches.

i may need to add this to my signature.

signed,
a b!tch

 

[Yesfan]

i may need to add this to my signature.

signed,
a b!tch

I figured we needed a homebrew version of "different strokes for different folks."

 

[user 263363]

It’s been awhile since I’ve contributed to this thread. I’ve currently got a batch going that is mostly 2 row with some corn and Munich in the mix. Decent charge of centennial at 60 minutes and a huge shot at flameout.

34/70 that’s been cooking right along at 70F under 12psi in a corny keg.

Hoping to try my first pour this weekend. I’ll report back!

 

[VikeMan]

Have any of you guys read the first post, seriously

Unfortunately, that's not the way internet forums work, i.e. threads are not normally "safe spaces," for believers only. Having said that, the mods or admins could declare this particular thread a dissent free zone and bounce the non-compliant, but I don't think they've done that.

 

[z-bob]

Is there a consensus for what ale yeast to use to with poor (but not nonexistent) temperature control to get something lager-y? Nottingham? K-97? Lutra? Or use lager yeast like 34/70 or S-189 and use ice bottles to keep the temperature down? I'd like to brew a Mexican Vienna and don't want to wait until winter. I have read the whole thread but not recently. I'm not setup to ferment under pressure with a spunding valve.

Please don't make this a safe space; the true-believers can shout down the purists and dissenters when they show up and everyone on both sides goes away feeling more righteous for it.

 

[Spundit]

Is there a consensus for what ale yeast to use to with poor (but not nonexistent) temperature control to get something lager-y? Nottingham? K-97? Lutra? Or use lager yeast like 34/70 or S-189 and use ice bottles to keep the temperature down? I'd like to brew a Mexican Vienna and don't want to wait until winter. I have read the whole thread but not recently. I'm not setup to ferment under pressure with a spunding valve.

Please don't make this a safe space; the true-believers can shout down the purists and dissenters when they show up and everyone on both sides goes away feeling more righteous for it.

I would use 34/70 if i could keep it below 70. I think others have gone a bit higher with good results.

if my temp was going to go higher, I would probably use Lutra. Lutra makes a good beer at really high temps anywhere from 68-90+. It does have a little bit of fruitiness to it but it is subtle and pleasant imo.

 

[Miraculix]

Is there a consensus for what ale yeast to use to with poor (but not nonexistent) temperature control to get something lager-y? Nottingham? K-97? Lutra? Or use lager yeast like 34/70 or S-189 and use ice bottles to keep the temperature down? I'd like to brew a Mexican Vienna and don't want to wait until winter. I have read the whole thread but not recently. I'm not setup to ferment under pressure with a spunding valve.

Please don't make this a safe space; the true-believers can shout down the purists and dissenters when they show up and everyone on both sides goes away feeling more righteous for it.

Mangrove jack california lager produces decent lagers up to 23 C, I have fermented it at 30C and it was still lager-ish with a hint of (pleasant) fruit esters, no fusels at all!

But use two packs, instead of one.

Otherwise, 3470 also produces a fairly clean lager-like beer at room temperature.

WLP 800 also works very well at room temperature.

Lutra is not even close to a lager. Can be a good beer, but these three ones i have mentioned produce far superior beers, if you judge them only on lager-ish taste.

 

[Immocles]

Is there a consensus for what ale yeast to use to with poor (but not nonexistent) temperature control to get something lager-y? Nottingham? K-97? Lutra? Or use lager yeast like 34/70 or S-189 and use ice bottles to keep the temperature down? I'd like to brew a Mexican Vienna and don't want to wait until winter. I have read the whole thread but not recently. I'm not setup to ferment under pressure with a spunding valve.

Please don't make this a safe space; the true-believers can shout down the purists and dissenters when they show up and everyone on both sides goes away feeling more righteous for it.

You sound in a similar situation to me. Plus you're only about 2 hours east on hwy14 from me, so we are probably in the same boat. Ice bottles and what not in the summer can get me down to ale temps unless its unreasonably hot (august...damn you august...). And if you can get down to ale temps, I would go with 34/70 instead of messing with ale yeasts. Im pretty uncouth, but I really really struggle to notice the difference between the warm and the cold ferment. Something tells me the cold ferment is better, but it might just be the bias of "thats how its been done". If dead set on ale yeasts, I would use notty because it ferments so clean that its actually boring.

I havent fermented with S189 at ale temps. I love it at lager temps, though.

Lutra is not even close to a lager. Can be a good beer, but these three ones i have mentioned produce far superior beers, if you judge them only on lager-ish taste.

Agreed. Admittedly, im not a huge fan of kviek yeasts because theres just a flavor there that I cant completely get beyond. Not that its bad, but its just never what I want.

 

[z-bob]

Mangrove jack california lager produces decent lagers up to 23 C, I have fermented it at 30C and it was still lager-ish with a hint of (pleasant) fruit esters, no fusels at all!

But use two packs, instead of one.

Otherwise, 3470 also produces a fairly clean lager-like beer at room temperature.

WLP 800 also works very well at room temperature.

Lutra is not even close to a lager. Can be a good beer, but these three ones i have mentioned produce far superior beers, if you judge them only on lager-ish taste.

I'm trying to make something that resembles Modelo Negra. (Mostly Vienna malt with a little 20L Munich and rice, and Carafa Special I and Crystal 120 for color. German hops @ 60 minutes only. I know they use Galena but I'll probably use Tradition) But I'll be happy with anything that is a good drinkable beer, even if it misses the mark. I have a couple of old packets of 34/70 in the fridge. I'll try that; pitch them a little on the warm side but add ice bottles for the first couple of days, then let it rise after that.

 

[z-bob]

You sound in a similar situation to me. Plus you're only about 2 hours east on hwy14 from me, so we are probably in the same boat. Ice bottles and what not in the summer can get me down to ale temps unless its unreasonably hot (august...damn you august...). And if you can get down to ale temps, I would go with 34/70 instead of messing with ale yeasts. Im pretty uncouth, but I really really struggle to notice the difference between the warm and the cold ferment. Something tells me the cold ferment is better, but it might just be the bias of "thats how its been done". If dead set on ale yeasts, I would use notty because it ferments so clean that its actually boring.

I havent fermented with S189 at ale temps. I love it at lager temps, though.


Agreed. Admittedly, im not a huge fan of kviek yeasts because theres just a flavor there that I cant completely get beyond. Not that its bad, but its just never what I want.

I am a fan of Voss Kveik. And I have used T-58 in a wheat beer in the summer with no temperature control and that was good. But both are totally wrong for this beer. I'm also going to try "Jovaru" farmhouse ale yeast this weekend to make a saison; wish me luck. That one also likes the heat.

I'll make a starter with the 34/70 since the packets are a couple of years old and use that. Ferment it as cool as I can and not worry about it

 

[z-bob]

Lutra is not even close to a lager. Can be a good beer, but these three ones i have mentioned produce far superior beers, if you judge them only on lager-ish taste.

I judge beer totally on the "would I pay $1 for a bottle of this" metric. I might ought to up that to $1.50 the way inflation is going. I think style guidelines are useful, but I'm not entering anything into competition so it really doesn't matter.