Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[applescrap]

Awesome gents, woot! Beautiful beers! Haven't checked in much since app crash. Brewed breakfast stout and some other stuff so haven't made a lager in a while either. Changed that by making ten gallons. It's ready but my kegs are dirty and it's been freezing so hope to keg it soon. Keep an eye out for me, this is a share thread not a debate thread. For those of you who want to see the debate thread it's called temperature reproach or something like that. I cover most of the older brulosophy exbmts but the rest is me being insulted by the scientific minded masses. Guess who was right?

Brings me a lot of joy seeing you brew marzens and helles etc. Those were some of the first I made. Haha until I realized I prefer bitter to malty lagers. That will happen to some of you to, but it's awesome to go where's my Marzen and be drinking one ten days later.

I have been no chilling as well because it's just so easy, with a quick mash and boil, beer can be made unbelievably easy and quick. For those of you that are new brewing quick is another passion of mine, yet seem to have more time lately. Have done a few longer mashes and haven't experienced anything magical. The beer is light lager, palmer and jamils recipe. Thought about adding gluco and you can see my thread on that if you are curious to learn more. I think it would be a critical piece if you want to make mich ultra or something like that.

I might throw an oz or two in these light beers to give them a little life. Have been using Simpsons GP but might go back after this bag runs out as it tastes better when grain but after brewed not sure it's worth the extra coin and rahr would be fine.

 

[seatazzz]

What brand of Pilsner malt do you typically use? I have used Weyermann Barke malt and thought it was fantastic. My standard two row is from Rahr.

My pilsner is Canada Malting's Superior Pilsner; mainly because it's the cheapest my LHBS carries. Never had a bad lager come out of it. For two-row it's Great Western, again because it's the cheapest. I'm cheap.

 

[seatazzz]

Awesome gents, woot! Beautiful beers! Haven't checked in much since app crash. Brewed breakfast stout and some other stuff so haven't made a lager in a while either. Changed that by making ten gallons. It's ready but my kegs are dirty and it's been freezing so hope to keg it soon. Keep an eye out for me, this is a share thread not a debate thread. For those of you who want to see the debate thread it's called temperature reproach or something like that. I cover most of the older brulosophy exbmts but the rest is me being insulted by the scientific minded masses. Guess who was right?

Brings me a lot of joy seeing you brew marzens and helles etc. Those were some of the first I made. Haha until I realized I prefer bitter to malty lagers. That will happen to some of you to, but it's awesome to go where's my Marzen and be drinking one ten days later.

I have been no chilling as well because it's just so easy, with a quick mash and boil, beer can be made unbelievably easy and quick. For those of you that are new brewing quick is another passion of mine, yet seem to have more time lately. Have done a few longer mashes and haven't experienced anything magical. The beer is light lager, palmer and jamils recipe. Thought about adding gluco and you can see my thread on that if you are curious to learn more. I think it would be a critical piece if you want to make mich ultra or something like that.

I might throw an oz or two in these light beers to give them a little life. Have been using Simpsons GP but might go back after this bag runs out as it tastes better when grain but after brewed not sure it's worth the extra coin and rahr would be fine.

Good to see you @applescrap! It was your posts here that motivated me to first try WF lagers, after being convinced for a few years that I couldn't brew a "lager" without letting it sit in a cold ferment fridge for 6+ weeks. My current one (brewed last weekend) has already dropped its krausen and will be ready to keg this weekend, going to set it in the kegerator tomorrow afternoon for some crashing. Tasty lager, grain to glass in 8 days? Oh helles yes (see what I did there???)! No yeast, no beer; Know yeast, know lager!!

 

[seatazzz]

Okay guys I am resurrecting this thread since it seems to have fallen out of favor the last few weeks, what with holiday ales, new stuff received for xmas, etc. Got into a semi-discussion on another thread regarding lagers and why some people think they can't be brewed without fancy equipment to keep them cold, i.e. at lager temperatures. My WF lagers (only lager style I brew now) taste great, and if I let them age a bit in the keg, are comparable to the best commercial craft lagers out there, at least in my very biased opinion. What have you all been doing lately?

 

[Snark_Wolf_Brewing]

Okay guys I am resurrecting this thread since it seems to have fallen out of favor the last few weeks, what with holiday ales, new stuff received for xmas, etc. Got into a semi-discussion on another thread regarding lagers and why some people think they can't be brewed without fancy equipment to keep them cold, i.e. at lager temperatures. My WF lagers (only lager style I brew now) taste great, and if I let them age a bit in the keg, are comparable to the best commercial craft lagers out there, at least in my very biased opinion. What have you all been doing lately?

Going to be trying my hand at a WF lager in the next week or two, and place an order for a draft beer tap system that works with 5 liter mini kegs and paintball tanks.

 

[RePete]

What have you all been doing lately?

I've switched back to ale yeast the past few batches, just to mix it up. But prior to that did almost all WF lagers for the past 6 months, and was brewing nearly every weekend. The Saflager 34/70 worked well, once I started pitching enough yeast. No special equipment, just sitting the fermenter on the basement floor. Usually the beers would finish within a week, I would transfer to a keg, and pitch the new batch on the yeast cake. Did it over and over. Worked great. Will probably start again soon. I really like the Dortmunder Export recipe, and brewed it 7-8 times. We just drained the last keg of it. I recently tried the Elliot Ness recipe, which is more of an Amber lager. I also used this yeast for some of the IPA recipes. I also did a SA Boston lager clone.

 

[Chetbrews]

Just had a chance to brew this past Saturday after a few months off. Had been brewing a lot of Brulosophy's Short and Shoddy International pale lagers, but chose to make my own recipe and tried for a Helles style. Did my standard 2.5 gallon batch with a short mash and boil. Also did no chill. Realize it's been a couple of years now since I stopped using my immersion chiller. Makes for a quick brewday (about 3 hours start to finish.) On Sunday, about 20 hours after finishing the boil, I pitched a dry packet of saflager 34/70 in my corny keg that I use to pressure ferment in. I had been just re-pitching Lallemand's Diamond Lager yeast, but I just haven't had a chance to collect the yeast from my last brew. Nice to brew again, hope I can get into a good rhythm this year so I can always have a tap or 2 of WF lagers on tap.

 

[Bilsch]

Okay guys I am resurrecting this thread since it seems to have fallen out of favor the last few weeks...

Maybe warm fermented lager fell out of favor because it is an oxymoron?

 

[Snark_Wolf_Brewing]

Maybe warm fermented lager fell out of favor because it is an oxymoron?

37 pages of success reported by other brewers would suggest otherwise.

 

[Genuine]

I've just had a very successful light lager using S-23 fermented in the mid 60's. The new year always brings about excitement as I plan my brewing calendar for the year. Besides making sure I have enough Czech and pale lagers ready for summer, I've been wanting to make a Vienna lager. Trying to figure out when I would want to enjoy some of that during the year.

 

[Vale71]

37 pages of success reported by other brewers would suggest otherwise.

If you define success as "people are drinking it" then yes, it's a success. Some people like to set different standards for their beer but of course that's a strictly personal choice.

 

[Bilsch]

You can call a hotdog a steak, and enjoy it, but it’s still a hotdog. The point I’m trying to make is there is a big difference between cold fermented lager and a steam beer. I have no issue with people making any kind of beer they want, but feel we should call them what they are.

 

[Miraculix]

You can call a hotdog a steak, and enjoy it, but it’s still a hotdog. The point I’m trying to make is there is a big difference between cold fermented lager and a steam beer. I have no issue with people making any kind of beer they want, but feel we should call them what they are.

There are certain "lager" yeasts, that do perform very well at temperatures way above typical lagering temperatures. Some of them, although classically used as lager yeasts for ages, genetically do not even belong to either of the two groups and still taste like lager strains. And then there are hybrids... and then... at the end, there is not such a thing as a real bottom fermenting yeast or lager strain at all.

But, there are certain yeasts that really work well at room temperature and I am pretty sure that in a blind test, between multiple lagers, some of them warm fermented, some of them traditionally, you would not be able to pick out those that were warm fermented with the yeasts that are good for it.

I actually do not like 3470 that much warm, there are better ones. For example WLP800 was outstanding and Mangrove Jacks california lager really is indistinguishable from a "normal" lager, when the right amount of yeast is pitched (it needs two packs).

 

[Northern_Brewer]

If you define success as "people are drinking it" then yes, it's a success. Some people like to set different standards for their beer but of course that's a strictly personal choice.

You can call a hotdog a steak, and enjoy it, but it’s still a hotdog. The point I’m trying to make is there is a big difference between cold fermented lager and a steam beer. I have no issue with people making any kind of beer they want, but feel we should call them what they are.

A gentle reminder of the opening post of this thread :

A thread for people who ferment lagers warm and want to discuss it. This is not a place to argue or debate fermentation temperature control, there are other threads for that. If you warm ferment lagers and want to share results or are considering trying. I would like this to be a safe place for discussing all things warm lager beer and experimentation.

 

[Vale71]

So basically only those in favor of this questionable practice can post? Presumably only to sing its praise? Critical voices and free thinkers need not apply?

Seems more than a bit self-serving considering that now and then this thread is referred to as "proof" of success of warm lager fermentation when all it actually proves is that some people will basically drink anything.

 

[Miraculix]

So basically only those in favor of this questionable practice can post? Presumably only to sing its praise? Critical voices and free thinkers need not apply?

Seems more than a bit self-serving considering that now and then this thread is referred to as "proof" of success of warm lager fermentation when all it actually proves is that some people will basically drink anything.

No, it means if you want to rant, start your own thread and continue your passive agressive behaviour somewhere else.

 

[Bilsch]

No, it means if you want to rant, start your own thread and continue your passive agressive behaviour somewhere else.

Ok cool. Can we get that same protected status applied to the LoDO threads?
Thank you.

 

[McKnuckle]

I think it's fair to be granted a safe space to discuss a particular aspect of brewing, without needing to be distracted with posters challenging the premise itself. It's like a club - the club doesn't let openly skeptical or aggressively contradictory people into its midst. And when that is explicitly and politely requested in the thread, it should be honored. Simple stuff.

There are people who seem unable to ignore discussion that opposes their own ideas and experience. But that's really the answer - just ignore the thread, and post elsewhere. There are plenty of other people actually asking for help and advice.

 

[WesBrew]

The "More Fermentation temperature reproach" debate thread.... #1

 

[Twinkeelfool]

So basically only those in favor of this questionable practice can post? Presumably only to sing its praise? Critical voices and free thinkers need not apply?

Seems more than a bit self-serving considering that now and then this thread is referred to as "proof" of success of warm lager fermentation when all it actually proves is that some people will basically drink anything.

Why does it bother you that people like the results of fermenting lagers in a non traditional way? It clearly bugs you for some reason. Why do you care so much about the way other people brew their lagers?

 

[seatazzz]

*munching popcorn with some delicious WF lager, waiting to see what happens*

 

[seatazzz]

I can only speak for the yeast I currently have in stock, S23; packet reads: Temperature range, 48.2-71.6 degrees, ideal temperature 53-59. I would say, having read this entire thread many times, that most of us who have tried this method rarely go above 66 (mine is usually fermented at 62-64). This is still well within the range of most lager yeasts. Traditional ales are usually fermented between 62-68. 34/70, which many espouse (not me, for reasons) can ferment well at either end of the temperature spectrum. Definitions for lager include both nouns and verbs; "a nice light lager" would be a noun, while "I lagered my beer for 3 weeks before serving" would be a verb. The first definition that comes up in google (noun) is "a kind of beer, effervescent and light in color and body". That could, in essence, define a blonde. Says nothing about how it was fermented, or with what yeast. The German definition is "beer meant to keep" which any beer could be if you wanted it to be.

Am I going to call what I brew a "steam" beer, simply because it wasn't brewed in a "traditional" manner? Heck no. It tastes like a lager, so that's what it is. I wouldn't call a beer fermented with ale yeast a lager (except maybe Notty which can do that, I've been told, at the lower end of the temperature range). It's an ale.

TLR, but I'm irked. The last thing I will point out, is that most of us are homebrewers without the fancy means (or space, or time) to ferment a lager at cold temperatures. I've done side by sides with a few of my brews that were done both cold and warm, and speaking from 40+ years of drinking beer experience, I cannot tell the difference, nor can my beer-drinking friends, nor a couple of BJCP judges.

 

[bracconiere]

I can only speak for the yeast I currently have in stock, S23; packet reads: Temperature range, 48.2-71.6 degrees, ideal temperature 53-59. I would say, having read this entire thread many times, that most of us who have tried this method rarely go above 66 (mine is usually fermented at 62-64). This is still well within the range of most lager yeasts. Traditional ales are usually fermented between 62-68. 34/70, which many espouse (not me, for reasons) can ferment well at either end of the temperature spectrum. Definitions for lager include both nouns and verbs; "a nice light lager" would be a noun, while "I lagered my beer for 3 weeks before serving" would be a verb. The first definition that comes up in google (noun) is "a kind of beer, effervescent and light in color and body". That could, in essence, define a blonde. Says nothing about how it was fermented, or with what yeast. The German definition is "beer meant to keep" which any beer could be if you wanted it to be.

Am I going to call what I brew a "steam" beer, simply because it wasn't brewed in a "traditional" manner? Heck no. It tastes like a lager, so that's what it is. I wouldn't call a beer fermented with ale yeast a lager (except maybe Notty which can do that, I've been told, at the lower end of the temperature range). It's an ale.

TLR, but I'm irked. The last thing I will point out, is that most of us are homebrewers without the fancy means (or space, or time) to ferment a lager at cold temperatures. I've done side by sides with a few of my brews that were done both cold and warm, and speaking from 40+ years of drinking beer experience, I cannot tell the difference, nor can my beer-drinking friends, nor a couple of BJCP judges.

damn, thanks...i can now truly proclaim i've been brewing barley wine! even though my OG is only 1.060! lol

 

[Vale71]

Why does it bother you that people like the results of fermenting lagers in a non traditional way? It clearly bugs you for some reason. Why do you care so much about the way other people brew their lagers?

It only bothers me when people tout this as some form of "success" while making it sound like anybody who doesn't do the same must be stupid or something, that's all. You like drinking beer that tastes like paint thinner? Fine, knock yourself out, just don't expect me or anybody else to do the same just because you do.

 

[Vale71]

TLR, but I'm irked. The last thing I will point out, is that most of us are homebrewers without the fancy means (or space, or time) to ferment a lager at cold temperatures.

And nobody will think less of you for that or any other reason but there is no shame in admitting that you don't have those capabilities and limit yourself to trying to brew excellent ales. There are even craft breweries that rather than brew lagers poorly only brew excellent ales and they're quite succesful too.

 

[Miraculix]

Why does it bother you that people like the results of fermenting lagers in a non traditional way? It clearly bugs you for some reason. Why do you care so much about the way other people brew their lagers?

It bothers this fine gentleman so much, because he cannot take it that something outside his well defined micro cosmos exists in a way that is not included within his personal view of the world. It is basically a defense mechanism of his own ego.

He even blocked me because I would not agree on his very narrow view on warm fermented lagers. This guy is truly unique.

As he displayed this behaviour many times here and in other threads, regardless of the topic, without no outcome but hate and bad feelings, I suggested to move the debate outside so people who really would like to partake can do so, while the rest can continue exchanging information about the current topic of warm fermented lagers.

 

[Vale71]

I think it's fair to be granted a safe space to discuss a particular aspect of brewing, without needing to be distracted with posters challenging the premise itself. It's like a club - the club doesn't let openly skeptical or aggressively contradictory people into its midst. And when that is explicitly and politely requested in the thread, it should be honored. Simple stuff.

There are people who seem unable to ignore discussion that opposes their own ideas and experience. But that's really the answer - just ignore the thread, and post elsewhere. There are plenty of other people actually asking for help and advice.

If that's the case then I'm sure they're more than welcome to create their own closed forum somewhere else. There's another major group that has done exactly that.

That way you can leave dissenting voices out (making people pay to participate is a good way to achieve that goal) but won't be able to refer to your private club as proof of anything, much less success, since only participants will be able to peek inside. If you still want to defend your arguments outside of your private club, for example in an open forum like HBT, you'll need actual, at best factual, arguments to do so which admittedly takes a bit more effort. That's simple stuff as well, wouldn't you agree?

 

[moreb33rplz]

Why is warm fermented lager desirable? Honest question. I could understand the fermentation process being faster if you ferment at 65 vs 50, but the time consuming aspect of lagers it the lagering process after fermentation. IMO, if we're skipping the lagering phase, this really isn't so much 'warm fermented lager' as it is 'not lagered lager'?

Just my 2 cents.

 

[McKnuckle]

I think it's desirable for those without reliable temperature control, which turns out to be many home brewers. Plus there's always the experimentation aspect. And the "challenging accepted standards for the hell of it because this is supposed to be fun" aspect. Finally, when people like what they produce, it's empirical (albeit subjective) evidence, so they continue to explore the path. No harm done.

This is why arguing about it is not productive. In life, it's often best to just shrug and say "Okay" rather than assail people's experiences as invalid - unless it directly harms you, of course. And that certainly can't be the case here.

Anyway, the ambient fermentation temps available to me are 68ºF and 74ºF in the winter, and 65ºish in the summer. So for any other range, I have to use temperature control, which I fortunately do have. Therefore it makes no sense for me, personally, to ferment lager at 60ºF when I can just as easily do it at 50º. I'm in no rush, either.

However I am just one data point, but there are many others for whom the premise is appealing.

 

[WesBrew]

-could be called Lager fermented at Ale temps, rather than warm, maybe avoid some of the aggro-debate and the "well if you like it..." comments.
Maybe Put a list of yeasts that work on page one for people that can't control temperature and want to make lager.

 

[bracconiere]

i got a question, that's on topic.

if i ferment with lager yeast at 70-80f, will it produce more esters? i think i like esters! i posted that question in it's own thread, but people just told me i was stupid maybe i'll get some help here

(i believe esters are weak opiates, and that's what makes beer/wine naturally fermented stuff feel better )

 

[Twinkeelfool]

It only bothers me when people tout this as some form of "success" while making it sound like anybody who doesn't do the same must be stupid or something, that's all. You like drinking beer that tastes like paint thinner? Fine, knock yourself out, just don't expect me or anybody else to do the same just because you do.

Read another thread then, why come in and criticise?

 

[VikeMan]

Read another thread then, why come in and criticise?

I think part of what @Vale71 is objecting to is that, in those other threads, this thread is being referenced as "proof" of something, and given that some would like to suppress open debate in this thread (and perhaps have succeeded to some extent), that seems like a party foul. I could be wrong.

 

[McKnuckle]

That's a fair point, but in post #2, the corresponding debate thread is cited:

More fermentation temperature reproach

In post #3, OP makes an explicit request to separate the two. I believe that request should be honored. Granted, this is the thread that has gained a life of its own, but maybe some folks should start expanding the other one.

 

[Miraculix]

i got a question, that's on topic.

if i ferment with lager yeast at 70-80f, will it produce more esters? i think i like esters! i posted that question in it's own thread, but people just told me i was stupid maybe i'll get some help here

(i believe esters are weak opiates, and that's what makes beer/wine naturally fermented stuff feel better )

Generally speaking, the warmer, the more esters you will get. But there are other unwanted byproducts that might increase as well, according to each individual yeast strain, this will differ. A few might get a bit sour and produce lactic acid, like s04 for example, a lot will produce more and more longer chained alcohols at higher temperatures and if there are too much of these, the beer is a dumper. Instant headache... So in other words, it really depends on the temperature and the specific yeast, but in general, yes, higher temperature equals more esters.

 

[WesBrew]

I wonder how the identical beers lager in side by side testing. maybe that was done? I've made very good lagers in the 60's before I had temp control. In tasting while lagering with traditional ferment temps, there is definitely a change in the beer. wonder if its the same.

 

[Beermeister32]

I think by now all yeast strains, ale and lager have been tested at pretty much all temp ranges. That is why they have recommended fermentation temperatures. Yes you can go outside those parameters and make beer, just don't expect optimal performance for the strain you are using. Now we have Kviek which is new, for home brewers anyway. A lot of experimentation is currently being done at different temps with Kviek, it appears to have a fairly wide temp window.

 

[moreb33rplz]

Are the folks who are warm fermenting their lagers still lagering them? Ie, storing them cold for several weeks/months?

 

[Beermeister32]

I'm sure most are doing their best at lagering it in the refrigerator if at all possible. Even if you can't do a full 90-120 day lagering schedule, any cold aging you can put on it would help. Even if only weeks. I find that most lagers are ready at about 90 days, 120 for bigger lagers like Märzens. They do improve with age, just like the rest of us old geezers!

 

[JohnSand]

I'm not sure I'm improving with age! At least I'm brewing better.
Has anyone tried Bootleg Arlingtonesis warm? I know it's a bit obscure. I have a small batch going in the basement right now in the mid fifties naturally. But if it can do well warmer I might try that too.
Thanks.